3 babies, only 1 mother

[ARYa_Nym]

Did GRRM tell you what this meant? Seems to me to be still up in the air.

No, this is a straightforward flashback of her wedding night

So are R+L=J fanatics claiming.

1) Do you have a better explanation? Who is it referring to?

2) It is a flashback but the word silver lets you know who it is.

3) So do you expect a flower to grow out of the wall in the winter?

[FanTasy]

But the Daynes, like Edric Dayne, are known to be able to have that colouring. Ashara has violet eyes, also.

Edric has fair hair, Ashara dark. I couldn't find reference to the hair colour of Arthur or Allyria Dayne.

Darkstar - from another branch - has silver hair, with dark streaks in it.

[Brucolac]

Ignoring babies that you have no idea if they existed or not, such as an offspring of Serra/Illyrio or just any baby born anywhere in westeros, there are two that you left out. Dany being born on Dragonstone and Ashara's stillbirth are both at this time.

If their actually was a switch with Aegon before he gets his head bashed in, it is done with just a commoners baby and it could be anyone and it hardly matters. The baby that Eddard raises as Jon Snow; well it is hard to doubt that his parentage is not Lyanna/Rheagar since Ned has said that he has his blood. I guess it is always possible that GRRM will want to say he actually is Ned's and a Fishwife or some other garbage. So, there isn't really a mystery about three babies you named. One is a nobody, one is Jon Stark, and the last is Aegon. Once baby swaps come into play though, you have to wonder what got changed and who is really who though.

Aegon could be a Targaryen, a Blackfyre, or a Dayne.

Dany could be a Targaryen or a Dayne.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

1) Do you have a better explanation? Who is it referring to?

Could be the greyscale-inflicted and recently sea faring Jon Connington. Grey lips smiling sadly = Greyjoy seems so very... meta. Dany doesn't see the words, those are meant for us.

On 3) I agree though. Guess I'm one of the fanatics. :) (Maybe we should get uniforms and a slogan?)

[ARYa_Nym]

Ashara's daughter could potentially be Allyria Dayne but Dany was born 8-9 months after Jon was. Ashara "killed herself" soon after Ned returned Dawn. If she gave birth it was sometime between then and Harrenhal.

[ARYa_Nym]

Could be the greyscale-inflicted and recently sea faring Jon Connington. Grey lips smiling sadly = Greyjoy seems so very... meta. Dany doesn't see the words, those are meant for us.

We know that he doesn't want to marry though especially not Dany since she's supposed to be for Aegon. If Jon marries someone they would question why he doesn't take off his glove. Jon I think could be the stone beast or it could be something else.

[Brucolac]

Ashara's daughter could potentially be Allyria Dayne but Dany was born 8-9 months after Jon was. Ashara "killed herself" soon after Ned returned Dawn. If she gave birth it was sometime between then and Harrenhal.

You don't need an exact age fit for a swap. It actually seems less and less likely to me that Ashara had a stillborn baby from an affair at Harrenhal. She would have killed herself at the start of the war if that was the case and not the end. Besides, you only need a baby that looks right. It is just a possibility, and it has actually been foreshadowed/hinted at twice in Dany POVs if GRRM decides to go that way.

[Errant Bard]

1) Do you have a better explanation? Who is it referring to?

I have no bloody idea, but just because you have one doesn't mean your is right, especially when the reasons for "Greyjoy" invoked are so ridiculous (a vision only making sense when put into words in english? "smiling sadly" meaning "joy"? Only Greyjoys able to be at the prow of a ship? Discarding the corpse/dead face/bright eyes?) On second thought, if I use your methodology, I can easily name several names: Jon Connington, Brienne, Sandor, Aemon.

2) It is a flashback but the word silver lets you know who it is.

The point was that the horse is not metaphorical. It's her horse, Silver, that she used then, to get to that still not metaphorical stream, on that non metaphorical night.

3) So do you expect a flower to grow out of the wall in the winter?

As I said, it's funny how the flower must be metaphorical but not the wall.

[ARYa_Nym]

I have no bloody idea, but just because you have one doesn't mean your is right, especially when the reasons for "Greyjoy" invoked are so ridiculous (a vision only making sense when put into words in english? "smiling sadly" meaning "joy"? Only Greyjoys able to be at the prow of a ship? Discarding the corpse/dead face/bright eyes?) On second thought, if I use your methodology, I can easily name several names: Jon Connington, Brienne, Sandor, Aemon.

The point was that the horse is not metaphorical. It's her horse, Silver, that she used then, to get to that still not metaphorical stream, on that non metaphorical night.

As I said, it's funny how the flower must be metaphorical but not the wall.

1) What's your reasoning for a female like Brienne being linked to bride of fire? & what made you think of Sandor? Jon Connington already said that he won't marry a woman. He wants Dany to marry Aegon. Victarion is going to her now and wants to marry her.

2) Her Silver is associated with Drogo.

3) Again is your interpretation a literal flower growing out of the wall? I'm sure R+L=J fanatics would want an alternative explanation as to why they're wrong.

[Errant Bard]

1) What's your reasoning for a female like Brienne being linked to bride of fire? & what made you think of Sandor? Jon Connington already said that he won't marry a woman. He wants Dany to marry Aegon. Victarion is going to her now and wants to marry her.

Dead face, corpse, smiling sadly, bright eyes. It was just done on the spot: once again, it's not because you think one guy fits some elements that you're not wrong. You argue against the idea that it's up in the air, you better be GRRM or psychic.

2) Her Silver is associated with Drogo.

Still doesn't make it metaphorical.

3) Again is your interpretation a literal flower growing out of the wall? I'm sure R+L=J fanatics would want an alternative explanation as to why they're wrong.

I don't need alternate explanations to support my objection that only one specific interpretation of the words is accepted by your ilk. Your posts speak for themselves.

[ARYa_Nym]

Dead face, corpse, smiling sadly, bright eyes. It was just done on the spot: once again, it's not because you think one guy fits some elements that you're not wrong. You argue against the idea that it's up in the air, you better be GRRM or psychic.

Still doesn't make it metaphorical.

I don't need alternate explanations to support my objection that only one specific interpretation of the words is accepted by your ilk. Your posts speak for themselves.

You said earlier in this post that since Jon is dead the likelihood that he's in the bride of fire sequence goes way down yet Aemon is a possibility. He's dead.

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

^We got gender confirmation. This can't be Brienne.

[Free Northman]

So this has become a R+L=J debate.

Which is understandable, given that it is the "central mystery of the entire series" if I recall Martin's description correctly. When asked why we haven't seen any Howland Reed POV's I seem to recall Martin said something about "Howland Reed knows too much about the central mystery of the series". Well, it doesn't take much insight into the series to understand what that refers to.

In any case, I don't feel the need to convince anyone to change their opinion.

What I will say, is that I have not a shred of doubt that R+L=J is indeed true. And in truth, I cannot escape the conclusion that people who oppose this idea do so simply out of a stubborn need to be contrary. Or because they just don't LIKE the idea.

In any case, I don't think a thorough reading of all the clues up to now leaves any doubt whatsoever that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's legitimately born son.

As I've said before. The mark of a good author isn't how close he can come to an M.Night Shamalayan: "Jeepers, I never saw THAT coming", ending.

It isn't a crime if we are able to predict Jon's parentage. If Martin didn't want us to guess it, he wouldn't have provided so many clues for us. It will in fact be a welcome emotional pay-off if it is revealed in a way that has great impact on the other characters and on the plot.

[Brucolac]

GRRM is reactionary to what fans thinks, though. He actually pays attention to it from comments he has made. It is possible he might change things because of guesses/assumptions made since he seems to have a desire to not be obvious and throw in twists. I don't think he can change Jon's parentage and preserve his story, but everyone guessing easily who they were, made him add all the fishwife red herrings in ADwD.

[Whatever]

GRRM is reactionary to what fans thinks, though. He actually pays attention to it from comments he has made. It is possible he might change things because of guesses/assumptions made since he seems to have a desire to not be obvious and throw in twists. I don't think he can change Jon's parentage and preserve his story, but everyone guessing easily who they were, made him add all the fishwife red herrings in ADwD.

No, I don't think he would change the story :)

And the fishwife red herring isn't much of a real one, since it's quite evident to anyone who knows the timeline that this would make jon one year older than he is. Catelyn would never have believed that Jon was conceived after she married Ned if he was twice bigger than Robb the first time she saw him.

[Free Northman]

To be honest, anything less than a Rhaegar's son reveal would be a rather massive anti-climax, considering the amount of build up and the lengths to which Martin went to keep Jon's identity a secret.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

So this has become a R+L=J debate.

Which is understandable, given that it is the "central mystery of the entire series" if I recall Martin's description correctly. When asked why we haven't seen any Howland Reed POV's I seem to recall Martin said something about "Howland Reed knows too much about the central mystery of the series". Well, it doesn't take much insight into the series to understand what that refers to.

I find R+L=J to be very likely. However, I'm not so sure we can deduce from GRRMs statement (this one I assume) that the identities of Jon's mom and pop is the central mystery. It could very well have to do something with Green Men and Others and stuff like that instead, without R+L=J.

[Dragonfish]

As I said, it's funny how the flower must be metaphorical but not the wall.

Why? It's not like the literal and the figurative are never mixed in prophecies. When the Ghost of High Heart refers to a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, we understand the purple serpents are figurative, while the maid and the feast are literal. And when she mentions a woman who was a fish drifting down a river, we understand the fish-woman represents Catelyn, while the river is literally the Green Fork, which she was thrown into by the Freys. So if our interpretation of the blue-flower prophecy is somehow inconsistent, it's only about as inconsistent as the most common interpretations of these other prophecies.

[Free Northman]

I find R+L=J to be very likely. However, I'm not so sure we can deduce from GRRMs statement (this one I assume) that the identities of Jon's mom and pop is the central mystery. It could very well have to do something with Green Men and Others and stuff like that instead, without R+L=J.

Yes, that's the one. I read it some years ago, so couldn't recall the exact wording. That comes from reading this series since the 1990's. You start having vague memories of stuff that you used to know at the snap of a finger.

In any case, I never considered that to be a reference to Reed's knowledge of the Others, since if it was that important, he would have informed his best friend and lord of Winterfell - Eddard Stark about this threat long ago. And in GoT, Eddard states to Catelyn that he isn't even sure if the Others ever truly existed.

No, I think it is pretty logical that what Howland knows so much about is exactly the event of which he is the only known living survivor - the real circumstances of the battle at the Tower of Joy, and Jon's origins.

[jon rr stark]

Yep I cant see the switch theory working either.

The idea of the switch for me has a big problem. When did Varys decide he needed a double for Aegon. Not sure how old Aegon is at this time but certainly a young baby. There would be no need of a switch if Rhaegar lived. So he either done it in the time between finding out Rhaegar was killed and Lannisters/ Ned arrived at Kl. How long is this? A day or two as Ned marched with his Van immediately after the battle. Alternatively he always had this planned. Still requires him to have a suitable young baby to hand. One that looked Targ or at least had the right colour hair and eyes. (note newborns all have grey eyes). Now there cant be many families around with the right features. If it was a low born bastard from one of the targs Varys runs the risk of its features coming out more commoner than Trag. If ita a high born bastard with two Trag like parents, you'd have thought it might be missed. Or brought in from essos this takes time and planning. So to sum up if there was a baby switch whichever way you look at it there isn't much time to do it, since it cant be just any old baby he would use to make a switch. Hence I think the switch unlikely

One other point correct me if im wrong but Jon connington didn't see or know about Aegon till the child was about five he did not see the baby aegon.

[Black Crow]

In any case, I never considered that to be a reference to Reed's knowledge of the Others, since if it was that important, he would have informed his best friend and lord of Winterfell - Eddard Stark about this threat long ago.

That all depends of course whether Reed considers the Others are the threat they're advertised as being. :cool4: