Sandor Clegane v.12

[littlespider]

Ned reflects that that's probably the first time in his life he earns the love of the commons. Funny we never see the Hound boast about that.

[headtrip_honey]

Ned reflects that that's probably the first time in his life he earns the love of the commons. Funny we never see the Hound boast about that.

dude i know this is totally not about book!Hound but i thought that scene in the series was done so well poor Sandor looked practically embarrassed but sheepishly proud at the same time the way he kinda nods his head as people cheers just breaks my heart

I think he's so dead set on being seen as RARRR vicious that it wouldn't occur to him to boast about that. Granted, we never see him boast about much at all, do we?

[brashcandy]

Ned reflects that that's probably the first time in his life he earns the love of the commons. Funny we never see the Hound boast about that.

I think honestly that saving Loras was a reflex action. He saw Gregor about to do some more evil shit, and he just reacted. It led to his victory but he took no real pleasure in it. Saving Miss Sansa now is a whole other story. He's a lot more prouder of that and boastful of it too. I think in this case he was much more emotionally affected by seeing her in danger. Just my opinion, and no I'm not sure why I'm spoilering this either :) Just following headtrip...

[Lemon Cake]

dude i know this is totally not about book!Hound but i thought that scene in the series was done so well poor Sandor looked practically embarrassed but sheepishly proud at the same time the way he kinda nods his head as people cheers just breaks my heart

I think he's so dead set on being seen as RARRR vicious that it wouldn't occur to him to boast about that. Granted, we never see him boast about much at all, do we?

I totally agree it broke my heart too SOB.

He did kind of brag to Arya about getting that song from Sansa. I'm not sure how he thought bullying a 12-year-old girl into singing for him would fit into his RARRR vicious image, though.

[headtrip_honey]

I totally agree it broke my heart too SOB.

He did kind of brag to Arya about getting that song from Sansa. I'm not sure how he thought bullying a 12-year-old girl into singing for him would fit into his RARRR vicious image, though.

Yeah NO idea. Arya was totally not impressed, and didn't believe him at ALL. I find it interesting that the one thing he does brag about (that I recall...there may be others) is getting a girl to sing for him, and the one person he brags TO is a ten year-old girl. Or however old she is. I can't remember.

Oh, Sandor and those Stark girls. They make him feel all these ~feelings.

[only me]

He cannot handle people being kind to him. So he has to insult and threaten Sansa when they talk, because gods forbid if she says anything nice to him and he wouldn`t know what to do.

With Arya he seems to be “more comfortable and less afraid” and he can talk about the things that are important to him (brag about the song). Of course Arya would never say anything nice to him.

[littlespider]

He cannot handle people being kind to him. So he has to insult and threaten Sansa when they talk, because god forbid if she says anything nice to him and he wouldn`t know what to do.

Bingo. He is very invested in his monster persona and does his best to provoke others into buying into it.

Neither Stark girl is buying that shit, though Arya doesn't want to admit it.

This is also why he laughs about killing Mycah. Haters dismiss this laughter as evidence of a psychopathic personality, but the fact that he brings it up repeatedly says otherwise. He brings it up at precisely those moments when he is trying to reinforce his status as a monster.

[brashcandy]

I think Sandor needs a quest/purpose. Something that will reinvigorate and inspire him! So what should it be?

- romance related - going off to find Sansa with Oathkeeper for company?

- religion related - somehow getting more involved with the religious turmoil that is building?

- revenge related - finally getting rid of Gregor?

Strangely, I thought I would go for #1, but I'm really interesting in seeing where #2 could lead. Totally uninterested in seeing him fight Gregor.

[littlespider]

Speaking as a nerd here, I am definitely interested in a "romance-related," but I mean romance as an early narrative genre -- i.e., chivalric romance that involves a quest, that often involves matters of religion, that very frequently involves traditional hetero relationships with aristocratic ladies, and that sometimes involves revenge.

The narrative arc of romance often involves a knight (or sometimes a king, or a king's son, or some other dude) who begins in a place of relative order, and then through a collapse into disorder leaves his civilization, goes questin', rebuilds an identity, and then it resolves itself in order. Some possible ingredients that appear in tons and tons of medieval romances:

• Serious fighting. Sweet. (check)
  
• Knights doing dumb and or morally suspect things. (check)
  
• Knight occasionally doing completely and indubitably horrible, horrible things (check)
  
• Knights getting humiliated, emasculated, horribly injured, or otherwise abjected -- including, rarely, getting stabbed in the thigh. (check)
  
• creepy rapey episodes (not necessarily perp'd by the knights themselves, though sometimes they are). (check)
  
• saving hot chicks from terrible things (check)
  
• saving other knights from terrible things (check)
  
• saving random other vulnerables from terrible things (check)
  
• knight going insane and/or undergoing serious religious reformation. (check)
  
• knight frequently encountering bellicose dwarfs (I'm serious!) and sometimes encountering nice dwarfs. (check)
  
• knight finding part of his redemption among animals, nature, or random religious guys (check?)
  
• epic showdown with Big Bad.
  
• miscellaneous weird episodic magic shit.
  
• getting laid or the possibility of getting laid.
  
• knight going incognito, and making a reputation for himself via disguise -- this is spider's favorite motif.
  
• marrying the richest, hottest chick and getting land, wealth and fame
  
• less frequently: not marrying rich hot chick and wandering off again into obscurity and/or becoming a religious recluse
  
• otherworld journeys
  
• discovering hidden or mysterious heritage
  
• bromance with other knights
  
• dying tragically
  
• dying happy of old age
  
• being made a saint after dying happy of old age
  
• a host of other things that I'm forgetting right now.
  

This list of ingredients has got to account for many possible continuations of the Hound story, yes? Though it could apply to a lot of other ASOIAF characters too.

[brashcandy]

This list of ingredients has got to account for many possible continuations of the Hound story, yes? Though it could apply to a lot of other ASOIAF characters too.

:) This is great, LS! Thanks for the quick lesson. So basically there's no need to pick and choose when it comes to Sandor's arc when he leaves the Quiet Isle.

[littlespider]

Oh, a big one I forgot is there are sometimes fights between brothers. These fights are frequently incognito so that neither brother knows he is fighting his brother (this happens between knights who are also buddies as well). Sometimes these fights end tragically (Malory's Balin and Balan). Sometimes they end when one knight takes off his helm and they recognize each other. There is much laughing and hugging.

There is also a whole lot of giant-fighting in romances. This seems important to me.

Suicidal behavior is often fairly common as well, usually combined with manly tears. Usually it is when a knight thinks his woman is dead and/or hates him. Lancelot does this frequently. He also makes out with a random wad of Guinevere's hair that he finds on the ground. Hawtness.

And if anyone wants to read tons of awesome medieval romances PM me and we can set up a group. They are awesome and weird.

[Spirit_Crusher]

Oh, a big one I forgot is there are sometimes fights between brothers. These fights are frequently incognito so that neither brother knows he is fighting his brother (this happens between knights who are also buddies as well). Sometimes these fights end tragically (Malory's Balin and Balan). Sometimes they end when one knight takes off his helm and they recognize each other. There is much laughing and hugging.

Or fathers and sons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lay_of_Hildebrand

[littlespider]

Or fathers and sons:

http://en.wikipedia....y_of_Hildebrand

Old High German is awesome; it looks so much like Old English.

Cuchulain also has an encounter with his son where neither of them know the other; Cuchulain ends up killing his only son. Very sad.

[Candor]

And if anyone wants to read tons of awesome medieval romances PM me and we can set up a group. They are awesome and weird.

Would love to, but I doubt I'd be able to find any physical copies. My library system has routinely failed me over my lifetime. Even my bookstore chain system. FML.

I think honestly that saving Loras was a reflex action. He saw Gregor about to do some more evil shit, and he just reacted. It led to his victory but he took no real pleasure in it. Saving Miss Sansa now is a whole other story. He's a lot more prouder of that and boastful of it too. I think in this case he was much more emotionally affected by seeing her in danger. Just my opinion, and no I'm not sure why I'm spoilering this either :) Just following headtrip...

Removed the spoiler tags - deal with it. ;)

This is the explanation for me. Sandor obviously has some brother ~issues, and I think he also has an instinct for defenseless peoples even if he does spout off warm and fuzzy mantras like "Steel and strong arms rule the world, don't ever believe any different" or "If you can't protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can." (An aside: Bright picture you're painting there, Sandor bb :drunk: )

He also hates tricks. And in a way what happened at the tourney could be described as underhanded. There's jousting, one loses, and that loser goes and whips out his blade to try and murder the winner. Yeah, not very good behavior. Sandor no likey, so Sandor takes his sword out and gets to cuttin'. Knee jerk reaction with endless amounts of triggers.

And you know what? I think this scene was devised specifically with Sandor characterization in mind. Never mind that it spotlighted Gregor or the Clegane brother dynamic too, but I think George RR was trying to get us to notice some things here about the Hound. To show that perhaps we too, should not judge this book by his cover and that he might have some good traits in him, if we're willing to read motivations as to why he intervened.

George has done similar things to add to the "likeability" factor for other characters. One prime example being George's various scenes that promote Tyrion's good side to sort of bolster against his being a Lannister, a dwarf, physically ugly, whatever.. All his jokes, the companionship with Jon, the saddle for Bran, there's lots we could go over but the point is is that they're there. For whatever reason we're being influenced to like a certain character. Whether we do or not is our free will, but again, it's all intent.

I could go as far as to say the whole Hand's tourney arc was fixed on his character being built up, and you know what, I will.

In this portion of the story, there are other things going on. Robert is too fat for his armor, the crown is in debt but LF will sleep soundly becuase all the whores wille be "walking bowlegged" from the traffic the tourney will bring, Ned is aghast at having his name on it all, Sansa's totes excited for the chivalry, etc..... but the scenes that stand out involve, who else, but Sandor Clegane?

1. Brother to brother fight

2. Story of his face being burned

So there's both subtle and non-subtle character development/building going on here. Even in a peripheral way, he gains some noteriety. In NED of all people's POV's, he notices that Sansa says something about the Hound, I think it was "I knew he was going to win."

Sandor sure gets a lot of screen time and development for him to be rotting in the ground now. He's alive, but what the future holds is debateable.

[Zmeischa]

And you know what? I think this scene was devised specifically with Sandor characterization in mind. Never mind that it spotlighted Gregor or the Clegane brother dynamic too, but I think George RR was trying to get us to notice some things here about the Hound. To show that perhaps we too, should not judge this book by his cover and that he might have some good traits in him, if we're willing to read motivations as to why he intervened.

That whole tourney is a pivotal scene for many characters. We see Sandor in the new light, we see Gregor in all his vileness, we get a glimpse of Loras, Sansa is shown to her advantage... But mostly Sandor, of course :). He is shown as a great warrior, a generous man, who doesn't care about the money (the way he threw Renly's gold antlers to the crowd was so awesome), he nobly saves Loras's life, deying his evil brother, and Sansa gets to see his gentle soul :).

[Candor]

That whole tourney is a pivotal scene for many characters. We see Sandor in the new light, we see Gregor in all his vileness, we get a glimpse of Loras, Sansa is shown to her advantage... But mostly Sandor, of course :). He is shown as a great warrior, a generous man, who doesn't care about the money (the way he threw Renly's gold antlers to the crowd was so awesome), he nobly saves Loras's life, deying his evil brother, and Sansa gets to see his gentle soul :).

I sort of laughed hysterically at the same time as I nodded my head in agreement. Oh Sandor, you and your gentle soul! :rolleyes:

These were some good times if ever I saw them. How I miss their simplicity.

[Spirit_Crusher]

And you know what? I think this scene was devised specifically with Sandor characterization in mind. Never mind that it spotlighted Gregor or the Clegane brother dynamic too, but I think George RR was trying to get us to notice some things here about the Hound. To show that perhaps we too, should not judge this book by his cover and that he might have some good traits in him, if we're willing to read motivations as to why he intervened.

George has done similar things to add to the "likeability" factor for other characters. One prime example being George's various scenes that promote Tyrion's good side to sort of bolster against his being a Lannister, a dwarf, physically ugly, whatever.. All his jokes, the companionship with Jon, the saddle for Bran, there's lots we could go over but the point is is that they're there. For whatever reason we're being influenced to like a certain character. Whether we do or not is our free will, but again, it's all intent.

I agree 100% on this. Tyrion was devised for being acceptably likeable from the beginning I think, but there are many examples of apppearently "evil" characters turning out all in all "likeable".

The Kingslayer is a prime example: it starts off as the dashing man, lustful, skilled, rich and clever, unbelievably cruel while having a smile on his face, the villain you love to hate. Later in the series you get to see his motives and he results humanized. Littlefinger is another example: he's presented as a cold manipulator and later tries his best to help and save the husband of the woman he loved and never stopped loving, and ends up saving her daughter...

[brashcandy]

Littlefinger is another example: he's presented as a cold manipulator and later tries his best to help and save the husband of the woman he loved and never stopped loving, and ends up saving her daughter...

... because he's a cold manipulator? Seriously, LF's "saving" of Sansa includes revealing the secret marriage the Tyrells had planned for her (which might have actually made her happy), leaving her at the Lannister's mercy who then force her to marry Tyrion, getting her implicated in the plot to murder Joffrey so that now she is a wanted criminal, and promising to take her back home only to take her to Vale where he implicates her in another 2 murders (Lysa's and Marillion's), and now is enjoying perving on her at all times. :stillsick: :stillsick:

But this is off topic! :eek:

I do agree with Candace's assessment about the Hand's tourney being a showcase for the contradictions in Sandor's character and background history. What I like is that this initial teaser is then fully borne out via his interactions with Sansa and Arya.

[littlespider]

Would love to, but I doubt I'd be able to find any physical copies. My library system has routinely failed me over my lifetime. Even my bookstore chain system. FML.

They're pretty easy to get on Amazon -- lots of penguin editions. And some of them are online. But no pressure. Only if you want!

He also hates tricks. And in a way what happened at the tourney could be described as underhanded.

I thought he would have despised Loras for the mare in heat season (equestrianidiomfail) trick. I also can't stop thinking of this tournament as a sort of opening montage for all the characters we get in King's Landing, the Hound being prominent among them, of course.

... because he's a cold manipulator? Seriously, LF's "saving" of Sansa includes revealing the secret marriage the Tyrells had planned for her (which might have actually made her happy), leaving her at the Lannister's mercy who then force her to marry Tyrion, getting her implicated in the plot to murder Joffrey so that now she is a wanted criminal, and promising to take her back home only to take her to Vale where he implicates her in another 2 murders (Lysa's and Marillion's), and now is enjoying perving on her at all times. :stillsick: :stillsick:

Littlefinger hasn't implicated her in these murders. She's considered a witness to Lysa's murder. Sure, if she doesn't participate in the role of being a witness, the impression is that her cover may be blown, but she has not been implicated. Littlefinger's still a bastard, of course, but we should keep this distinction straight.

Plus Marillion is totes not dead.

[brashcandy]

Littlefinger hasn't implicated her in these murders. She's considered a witness to Lysa's murder. Sure, if she doesn't participate in the role of being a witness, the impression is that her cover may be blown, but she has not been implicated. Littlefinger's still a bastard, of course, but we should keep this distinction straight.

Plus Marillion is totes not dead.

I can see your point, but the way I see it is that LF had a choice not to kill Lysa. He didn't have to push her through the moon door, but did so for his own selfish, cruel reasons. By doing so, and then blaming it on Marillion, he has directly implicated Sansa. Now she is forced to lie to cover up his crimes, and if the truth is revealed, she will likely be seen as an accessory to murder.