Sandor Clegane v.12

[brashcandy]

But Sandor did perish in a fire. When Gregor burned half his face off, "Sandor" died and the "Hound" was born. Now the Hound has finally perished and Sandor is back again! :) No need to fear, sisterhood.

[Arkash]

- but not knights;

Dunk was a knight.

[Zmeischa]

Dunk was a knight.

i'

He said he was, but he didn't sound very convincing, and he panicked when he was asked to knight Fossoway.

[Spirit_Crusher]

i'

He said he was, but he didn't sound very convincing, and he panicked when he was asked to knight Fossoway.

Yeah, I too got the impression the old man didn't manage to knight Dunk before dying.

But the reallly important thing is another... Sandor has a lot more shadows than Dunk has, he's a much darker and more painful character.

[littlespider]

Oh my, are you a medievalist too?

Shhhh.....

Not an Abelard specialist, though.

We'll share a secret sign so we can recognize each other at the 'zoo, k?

I would have difficulties picturing a Sanssa\Sandor relationship in the vein of the Abelard\Eloise or Francis of Assisi\ Claire one...

Platonic love and epistular relationship can "work" between intellectuals, which Sandor definitively is not.

+1

*epiphany*

But you know this was how it was between Maester Luwin and Septa Mordaine!

But as to the death of the "Hound" -- I have to confess a little bit of melancholy over that, just because that epithet is so awesome.

[Lemon Cake]

But as to the death of the "Hound" -- I have to confess a little bit of melancholy over that, just because that epithet is so awesome.

Me, too. Tbh, I'm going to stubbornly keep calling him the Hound most of the time, simply because I never felt that Sandor really fit him. I guess I'll need to come up with a way to differentiate between pre-QI Hound and post-QI-Hound, though.

[littlespider]

Me, too. Tbh, I'm going to stubbornly keep calling him the Hound most of the time, simply because I never felt that Sandor really fit him. I guess I'll need to come up with a way to differentiate between pre-QI Hound and post-QI-Hound, though.

I will as well if you will!

Hound 2.0 seems too technical.

Post-lapsarian Hound? (PLH)

That doesn't quite fit either. I'll keep working on it.

But otherwise, these are interesting connections to Dunk. I had assumed that Dunk's other descendents were Arryk and Erryk, rather than the Clegane bros.

[Lemon Cake]

Hound 2.0 seems too technical.

Post-lapsarian Hound? (PLH)

:lol: Since all I've been able to come up with so far is the exceedingly lame "Bad Hound" and "Good Hound" (though in the latter case, it'd probably be more accurate to say "Still-A Little-Bad-But-Not-As-Bad-As-He-Used-To-Be Hound"), your suggestions work just fine for me!

[brashcandy]

So I was wondering about just how notorious Sandor is across Westeros. I mean, was he really involved in some crazy shit pre-AGOT?

[headtrip_honey]

So I was wondering about just how notorious Sandor is across Westeros. I mean, was he really involved in some crazy shit pre-AGOT?

He's been known as a formidable warrior for some time. The smallfolk in the Riverlands knew who he was when he was traveling with Arya, so I'd say that from the Westerlands to Kings Landing he's probably well known.

Remember, he was likely involved in the sack of KL as well as the Greyjoy Rebellion. With a brother notorious as Gregor, you're bound to get extra attention, and he apparently did not disappoint those looking for ferocity in battle.

Interestingly, the smallfolk in the Riverlands don't seem scared of *him*, but ask him to leave because a man like him attracts violence. So they weren't afraid of HIM committing violence personally, if that makes any sense. They were more than happy to work alongside him for a week or two.

[Lemon Cake]

The smallfolk in the Riverlands knew who he was when he was traveling with Arya, so I'd say that from the Westerlands to Kings Landing he's probably well known.

He's also known down in Dorne. Arianne mentions him in the Arys Oakheart chapter of AFFC, when she talks about how they released Ser Barristan from the Kingsguard so "Joffrey could give [barristan's] place to his dog." (paraphrasing)

[1234567]

He's also known down in Dorne. Arianne mentions him in the Arys Oakheart chapter of AFFC, when she talks about how they released Ser Barristan from the Kingsguard so "Joffrey could give [barristan's] place to his dog." (paraphrasing)

Also Mormont says the same thing in AGOT. so he is known at the Wall as well. I really would like to know more about his past deeds. The EB talks of those both good and bad. What is interesting as almost everyone of them refers to him as Joff's dog.

[Lemon Cake]

The EB talks of those both good and bad. What is interesting as almost everyone of them refers to him as Joff's dog.

That intrigues me, too, especially the "good" deeds, because my impression was that the Hound was a man who was greatly feared, but not respected or highly thought of in any way. Any respect people felt for him seems to have been solely for his skill as a fighter and nothing else. I know this has been a topic of hot debate in the past, but I actually agree with the Elder Brother's assessment that (adult)Sandor Clegane "was loved by no one", because it seems to be borne out in the text. The only person who ever seems to think highly of him as a person is Joffrey, for heaven's sake. It's true that Sansa comes to think more kindly of him, and Arya softens toward him as well (though she'd probably chew her own right arm off before ever admitting it), but only after being exposed to him in extreme and highly unusual situations. I can't think of anyone else. It's true that Jaime doesn't think he's responsible for Saltpans... but not thinking Sandor is a monster is a far cry from appreciating him as a person in any way.

Even Tywin Lannister disparaged Sandor as a person, when he compared him to Ser Barristan and said that Barristan had brought honor to every house he ever served, but the same could not be said for Sandor Clegane.

Anyway, getting to my point -- and I swear I do have one -- I am curious about what "good deeds" Sandor might have done, because he really does seem to be quite despised by everyone, much as it pains me to say it. He's respected as a fighter, but no one apart from Joffrey seems to have anything good to say about the kind of man he is. SO WHAT GOOD DEEDS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, EB?

[brashcandy]

Also Mormont says the same thing in AGOT. so he is known at the Wall as well. I really would like to know more about his past deeds. The EB talks of those both good and bad. What is interesting as almost everyone of them refers to him as Joff's dog.

So Sandor's something of a celebrity, :) albeit more infamous than famous. I'm interested in those past deeds too, but I don't suppose we'll ever know much about them.

I wonder if there's anyway he can turn his notoriety into an asset?

[only me]

About good deeds - everybody loves a tourney champion.

[Lemon Cake]

About good deeds - everybody loves a tourney champion.

Oh yes, that's true. I guess I fell into the trap of thinking "good" meant honorable or kind, but you're right. It could have been as simple as winning a tourney or doing some really impressive head-chopping-thingy move in battle.

[littlespider]

When Jaime thinks of him in FFC, he thinks he is a "hard and brutal man" or something -- in the same context that he realizes that the Saltpans incident really doesn't sound like something Hound 1.0 would do.

But he also thinks that there's no place in the seven hells big enough for both Cleganes. Sandor's reputation is affected by his brother, and it's also affected by his affiliation with Joff -- "Joffrey's dog."

I wouldn't agree that Joff thinks of him as a person; I think our favorite sadistic King-boy thinks of him as a possession -- an awesome weapon not unlike widow's wail. Similar to Tywin: "you feed your dog scraps under the table, you don't have him sit ont he bench beside you." Joff's "How do you like that, dog?" struck me as a kid who took great pride in throwing a bone (wokka wokka) to a subordinate.

Sansa saw him as a person. So did Arya. And... so did Thoros of Myr, interestingly. Now we've got EB. Perhaps Septon Meribald, hearing his confession. And possibly Brienne, having heard EB's words, though she thinks he's dead. There is hope yet...

[brashcandy]

Oh yes, that's true. I guess I fell into the trap of thinking "good" meant honorable or kind, but you're right. It could have been as simple as winning a tourney or doing some really impressive head-chopping-thingy move in battle.

He did save Loras in that tourney too. That story probably did the rounds in lots of villages across Westeros.

[only me]

When Jaime thinks of him in FFC, he thinks he is a "hard and brutal man" or something -- in the same context that he realizes that the Saltpans incident really doesn't sound like something Hound 1.0 would do.

But he also thinks that there's no place in the seven hells big enough for both Cleganes. Sandor's reputation is affected by his brother, and it's also affected by his affiliation with Joff -- "Joffrey's dog."

Being Joff`s dog and Gregors`s brother + facial burns = bad repurtation. He didn`t have to work extra hard for that.

[only me]

He did save Loras in that tourney too. That story probably did the rounds in lots of villages across Westeros.

Saving Loras probably classifies as a very good deed. The knight of flowers was considered almost a god in the circles of teenaged girls and gay men. And the common folk seem to love the Tyrells as well.