Unpopular Opinions, Because We Can Never Get Enough

[Nausicaä]

Shae was living in the Hand's Tower, right? And didn't he strangle her with the golden chain he bought for her? Sounds like some sort of payment for her services. And she could have saved him, right? But she didn't.

Shae was never living there, he strangled her with the golden chain that was a property of the crown (everything he bought for her he took away) and it was no kind of payment. And no, at no point Shae could have saved him, being a lowborn girl, powerless to even choose her place of occupation.

[Teeem3000]

That guy was a jerk. Not many redeeming qualities, but then not much of a change in ADWD.

[headtrip_honey]

I find those personally demeaning arrogant comments far more ugly than comments about fictional characters, because our fellow posters are real persons who deserve respect and not be called whatever for a different opinion or if they are a little slow. Fictional characters can't take offense but people can. We can call Daeneris a stupid promiscous brat, right the contrary of what I think, but never tell our fellow posters that "you should better learn to read properly". This is something I would have reported if I were into reporting.

Don't get me wrong, I believe you are polite and your post was friendly and I personally never was so angry that I felt the need to report anything concerning myself. But people can do far more harm with the way something is said than with their actual choice of words. Netiquette is not about reporting but about common sense. And I must say that I hate those sarcastic personal remarks towards fellow posters.

Once again, thank you,for your politeness, it is easy for me to avoid that word in the future

I personally try to be polite unless the person I'm responding to has taken no such care. I can't police other people's behavior, though.

And regarding fictional characters - to me it is just as bad to call Daenerys a slut as it is to call a "real person" a slut. The reason being is that saying "slut" in any context just propagates the notion that that kind of language is OKAY when it is NOT.

So you calling Tywin a f----t? Maybe a joke to you, but in reality quite offensive, as it seems to condone the use of that very nasty and hostile word.

And just a final comment - I find it amusing that you're so sensitive about people being courteous to other posters, given that you've been quite discourteous, condescending and insulting to Sandor fans in the past. So, you give and you get.

[Postmoe]

So was Jack the Ripper's.

If you know the vital context of this UNKNOWN guy...

What, you mean rapists and murderers of sex workers?

No, I was thinking about people whose clumsiness with languaje matters leads to an obvious misuse of terms as slut or whore or sex-therapist.

[Queen Cersei I]

But as a fact, I think Tyrion is also related to "dirty women". I understand thatt the word is to avoid because it's rude. Understood, I have already taken the nuance.

*I will not snap up the bait, I will not snap up the bait*

:bang: :bawl:

Well, to be fair, Alexia, Jaime is quite the shameless little hussy.

I am sick of people objecting to him being dubbed a whore, making this all an issue of sexism. Even if Jaime were a woman, him sleeping with everybody would clearly be far more appalling than the murder, torture, and child maiming he engages in on a regular basis.

Plus, sex is all he has. Remember that time he tried to bribe Catlyn Tully with sex to get out of prison? And he TOTALLY would have done it, too. Slut.

Oh, and ALSO: he totally fucked Aerys to get on the Kingsguard. The proof: Aerys let Jaime on the Kingsguard, he may well have been bribed to do so, and Jaime was within walking distance of Aerys at the time. Thus, Jaime totally fucked Aerys to get on the kingsguard.

Thank you, and I think we've all learned a VERY important lesson about who the real WHORE is now, haven't we?

[Candor]

Wow, okay lots of anger in here. My Sisters, might I make a plea to cease and desist? I feel we'll only run in circles keeping up some of the dialogue here. But as you will.

Note: I'm not condoning behavior such as slut-shaming and using certain words that I find offensive on my and my brother's behalf, just saying we've made the point of not condoning it already, let's move on?

As to Shae, I personally don't think she could have changed the outcome of Tyrion's trial. Her testimony was merely another nail in the coffin to convict him. Even without it they would have convicted him guilty or innocent because the trial was a big sham anyway and they were going through with protocol only to give the impression of legality.

I got the impression that in the end, Shae was in circumstances equal to as if he had not paid her, or not paid her in full. Because one could argue that her "room and board" for however long she was in King's Landing was a sort of payment, but that might not equate to the amount of "transactions" (couldn't think of a better word for that :stillsick: ) there were in their arrangement. He also gave her other things such as finery and a manse, but summarily retracted such possessions. Would also like to point out: if he paid doesn't make it okay. There were instances that he treated her badly. I'm thinking of the time he slapped her, especially. Uncalled for no matter how many things you give the woman.

On the subject of Tyrion's character changing over the books, I would attest that this is true. He definitely got lower with time. In the first two books I was really fond of his character. But from I'd say his... last chapter in CoK onward, my opinion lessened. In AdWD, it near evaporated. I'm scared to think of how he will be acting in the next two books....

[1234567]

What about the Umbers?

Well it depends, if it's Whoresbane we are talking about, then the Bride has little to worry about!

Seriously, all characters in this series are shades of Grey. It adds a sinister layer to the lovable, jovial Umbers.

[Raksha the Demon]

Hey, better a slut than a whore!

P.S.-- like the implication that "sluts" have a "greater social purpose." Because if it weren't for all the whores, the good girls wouldn't be able to stay pure, good, and holy. Or something.

So was Jack the Ripper's.

What, you mean rapists and murderers of sex workers? Um, yeah, it sort of is. Even in our day in age, prostitutes are the most commonly murdered demographic of women. Countless young sex workers go missing each year in OUR society, and no one knows, no one cares, no one really wants to talk about it.

3/4 of all prostitutes start the selling themselves at age 14 or younger; something like 80 percent of prostitutes have been raped at one point. And yet people maintain that Shae was just a greedy whore who's only real problem was her essiential heartlessness and rapacious urge for money and social elevation. Saying that Shae (or any of the other hookers we've met) have probably been raped and abused repeatedly is not "Inventing a backstory to justify a characters deeds;" it is honestly, knowing what we know about the living and working conditions of prostitutes in our modern, liberated, "equal" day in age, common sense.

Oh, so here's my unpopular opinion-- I didn't really care when Shae called Tyrion, "my giant of Lannister," and everybody laughed at him. I understand his embarassment, but not his level of lasting anger and rage, nor that of the readers, who frequently attest that Shae's saying that "to twist the knife" was proof of... what, exactly? Innate depravity? I'm not feeling it.

Tyrion's situation was tough, and i understand some minutes (or hours) of anger, hurt, and frustration. But in the end, he should have just put on his big boy pants and dealt with it like the 25 year old man he is, not some insecure 15 year old.

Tyrion killed Shae because he had loved her, she betrayed him by bearing false witness against him that helped convict him of a crime he did not commit and because he found her in his father's bed. The thing is, none of these are necessarily killing offenses; at least by our laws, and, in my opinion, by the laws of common decency. Shae might well have been threatened as well as promised shiny things (jewelry, coin, marriage to a knight) if she testified that Tyrion had conspired to murder his nephew. But probably the worst things, in Tyrion's eyes, was that Shae humiliated Tyrion in court with the Giant of Lannister remark, and that she was sleeping with Tywin; and Whores/Tywin is a real hot-button issue not only in the Lannister family but between Tyrion and his father.

Shae was not in love with Tyrion; and she was no longer 'with' Tyrion, since he had been arrested and convicted of regicide, so I'm not sure if the terms of their original contract still applied. In any case, I don't think Shae deserved to be murdered, either on legal or moral grounds. And killing Shae has worsened Tyrion's character considerably.

If Shae lived in the United States or other economically solvent countries where there are more opportunities for women than selling their bodies to survive; I think the label of 'slut' could be applied in speech - but that's still no excuse for murder.

One can excuse Tyrion, or partially excuse Tyrion for his participation in the gang-rape of Tysha; in that he was a traumatized boy obeying his abusive, cruel, father. But there's no such excuse for his murder of Shae; Tyrion seems coldly rational and is an adult. It might be said, by the laws and traditions of Westeros, that there was some justification for Tyrion's killing his father - Tywin had caused the rape and shaming of Tyrion's wife; but this is a real dicey point; because there are also very strong traditions condemning Kin-slaying.

GRRM has written Tyrion almost too well; I liked him as a character very much in AGOT and most of ACOK and ASOS; but he's going down that dark side now; and I am not sure if and how he could be redeemed.

[headtrip_honey]

If Shae lived in the United States or other economically solvent countries where there are more opportunities for women than selling their bodies to survive; I think the label of 'slut' could be applied in speech - but that's still no excuse for murder.

We don't know that - for all we know, Shae only has sex because it's the only way she can get paid. We have no way of knowing what her attitude toward sex would be if it weren't her livelihood.

[Postmoe]

We don't know that - for all we know, Shae only has sex because it's the only way she can get paid. We have no way of knowing what her attitude toward sex would be if it weren't her livelihood.

She did hate to be a maid in the RK and prefered her current life as the Hand's mistress. She was also obsessed with jewels and clothing. Wow, but that was not Tyrion. That was GRRM.

[1234567]

Shae didn't condemn him to death, he was already condemned, she didn't betray him because they're weren't lovers or in a relationship, he said he would pay her for sex and then didn't. That does not constitute a relationship.

I saw a coaster today (during Christmas Shopping Madness): I work for the money. If you want loyalty, get a dog.

[headtrip_honey]

She did hate to be a maid in the RK and prefered her current life as the Hand's mistress. She was also obsessed with jewels and clothing. Wow, but that was not Tyrion. That was GRRM.

Yes, she preferred the life of luxury to a life of cleaning up after Lollys Stokeworth.

Who wouldn't?

[Postmoe]

Yes, she preferred the life of luxury to a life of cleaning up after Lollys Stokeworth.

Who wouldn't?

A life of luxury as a whore. And working in the RK is not working in a farm near Harrenhall.

I don't blame Shae. I liked her, and she was kind with Tyrion. But she prefers to be a whore even when she can more or less find something different. I think that in a world of men, she prefers to be in control of her body being a whore than being in a more acceptable but risky situation. She assumes clearly herself as a courtisan.

[headtrip_honey]

A life of luxury as a whore. And working in the RK is not working in a farm near Harrenhall.

I don't blame Shae. I liked her, and she was kind with Tyrion. But she prefers to be a whore even when she can more or less find something different. I think that in a world of men, she prefers to be in control of her body being a whore than being in a more acceptable but risky situation. She assumes clearly herself as a courtisan.

That you making the assumption. If Shae had the option to marry well (that's what was offered her for her testimony - marriage to a landed knight!) instead of having to do whatever perverted thing her most recent client comes up with, she would.

But Shae doesn't have options. She's clearly pleased when allowed to live in the manse, and disappointed when Tyrion wants to put her in the kitchens. She's happier about being a lady's maid, but still would prefer NOT to have to work.

I'm not sure how this reflects on her promiscuity. Oh wait, it doesn't.

[mediocre cheese]

If Shae lived in the United States or other economically solvent countries where there are more opportunities for women than selling their bodies to survive; I think the label of 'slut' could be applied in speech - but that's still no excuse for murder.

I'm not an expert on the prostitution industry in the US (or any economically solvent country), but I think the majority of women (and young men) who sell their bodies, (ie. are prostitutes) are not doing so out of "sluttiness" and a lack of desire to engage in other jobs, but because they are either coerced/manipulated/are feeding a serious drug addiction or because they are from economically vulnerable backgrounds and are largely unfamiliar with the labor market (teenage runaways).

Shae's background, iirc was that of an 18 year old who fled an abusive home. A modern shae, an 18 year old without a diploma who has no parental support system isn't going to have the economic ability to advance easily in modern society (there are people who have done so, but they are the exceptions). I'd hesitate before judging someone who engages in sex work as a slut, simply because they live in an economically solvent country.

[Postmoe]

That you making the assumption. If Shae had the option to marry well (that's what was offered her for her testimony - marriage to a landed knight!) instead of having to do whatever perverted thing her most recent client comes up with, she would.

But Shae doesn't have options. She's clearly pleased when allowed to live in the manse, and disappointed when Tyrion wants to put her in the kitchens. She's happier about being a lady's maid, but still would prefer NOT to have to work.

I'm not sure how this reflects on her promiscuity. Oh wait, it doesn't.

It doesn't reflect any kind of promiscuity. It reflects a different thing, it reflects that she is a whore. She is clearly too confortable with that to assume that she doesn't have other options. She has no moral problems, and that's why Tyrion likes her so mutch. The stupid think is to kill her for that same thing. But she will never be a sad slave girls in a brothel, she is a convinced whore for me. And I find it good, she's far more clever and independent than other characters.

[headtrip_honey]

It doesn't reflect any kind of promiscuity. It reflects a different thing, it reflects that she is a whore. She is clearly too confortable with that to assume that she doesn't have other options. She has no moral problems, and that's why Tyrion likes her so mutch. The stupid think is to kill her for that same thing. But she will never be a sad slave girls in a brothel, she is a convinced whore for me. And I find it good, she's far more clever and independent than other characters.

She's a whore because she doesn't want to work in the kitchens?

WHAT.

[Alexia]

I would also note that whatever one thinks of sex work and those who engage in it, it really helps nothing and adds nothing to the conversation to verbally demean people who already engage in a demeaning and dangerous line of work.

What does it add to the conversation to call a prostitute a slut, beyond further marginalizing her and demeaning her?

[Postmoe]

She's a whore because she doesn't want to work in the kitchens?

WHAT.

WHAT?

Never said that. I think you are judging my arguments and taking them into a WRONG direction.

In fiction life as in real life, you can be clever and cynical or stupid and moralist. Shae prefers to be clever and sell her body to the elite rather than beeing a factual slave in the kitchens or in the fields, risking rape and all sort of abuse. And for that she prefers to be what she is openly. There's a haverst in Westeros, there are septs to be fullfiled with septas. Even if it's a feudal society she has some options.

Theres an evident contrast between Shae and other characters who are enslaved. It's not fair to put them all in the same box.

[headtrip_honey]

WHAT?

Never said that. I think you are judging my arguments and taking them into a WRONG direction.

In fiction life as in real life, you can be clever and cynical or stupid and moralist. Shae prefers to be clever and sell her body to the elite rather than beeing a factual slave in the kitchens or in the fields, risking rape and all sort of abuse. And for that she prefers to be what she is openly. There's a haverst in Westeros, there are septs to be fullfiled with septas. Even if it's a feudal society she has some options.

Theres an evident contrast between Shae and other characters who are enslaved. It's not fair to put them all in the same box.

Your assumption is that Shae clearly *decided* to be a whore, because she dislikes physical labor.

Now, you think that this is clever, but I call it false reasoning.