Unpopular Opinions, Because We Can Never Get Enough

[1234567]

Man.. I really used to like Tyrion.

Sigh. Me too.

Sometimes I thinking Tyrion is like Smoking. You love cigarettes, and find lots of excuses for why smoking isn't as bad as others say. Then finally something makes you quit smoking and you become a reformed smoker and really can't remember what you liked about smoking in the first place.

Now replace Smoking with Tyrion.

[Alexia]

Sigh. Me too.

Sometimes I thinking Tyrion is like Smoking. You love cigarettes, and find lots of excuses for why smoking isn't as bad as others say. Then finally something makes you quit smoking and you become a reformed smoker and really can't remember what you liked about smoking in the first place.

Now replace Smoking with Tyrion.

Haha, great analogy. I say this a former smoker.

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm thinking the canine sense. And after a while, it almost, almost, got to have an affectionate sense to it.

I don't think it was affectionate but maybe I read him differently.

"Stupid blind little wolf bitch."

"We have to go get my mother." "Stupid little bitch."

"I hit you with the flat of the axe, you stupid little bitch....Now shut your bloody mouth. If I had any sense I'd give you to the silent sisters. They cut the tongues out of girls who talk too much."

"The little wolf bitch wants to join the Night's Watch, does she?" "My brother's on the Wall," she said stubbornly. His mouth gave a twitch."The Wall's a thousand leagues from here. ....I don't give a rat's arse for you or your brother.I have a brother too."

[littlespider]

I don't think it was affectionate but maybe I read him differently.

Yeah, okay. *hides head*

You convinced me.

[Faceless Cat]

I never got the impression myself that Tyrion seriously and literally meant he wanted to rape Cersei, and I will be extremely surprised if it ever comes to that.

Regarding comparing Tyrion and Sandor when it comes to how they interact with Cersei - I can't say I find it surprising that those interactions vary. Tyrion and Cersei have plenty of negative history between them, going back to their childhood. I can't really blame him for how he feels about her, or for rude words which I'd find unacceptable without the bad blood she caused. As far as I can recall, Sandor has no real reason to curse out Cersei, at least not in GoT, where she is his employer, and he doesn't seem mistreated by her. Does she give him any cause to mislike her later?

How does Sandor behave towards/think of women in general? I don't feel we have enough input to say one way or the other. It's mentioned somewhere that he visits brothels, but I think he deals with his angst more by brooding, while Tyrion deals with his more by acting out. I can easily envision Sandor being abrasive, particularly while drunk, but that's based on my general impression of the character rather than textual evidence. I don't see him being outright abusive.

Lastly, does Tyrion act horrible at times? Yes, yes he does. Fortunately he's a fictional character and not a real person, so it doesn't really bother me as long as I still enjoy reading his chapters.

[mediterraneo]

I want to spend a word for Tyrion.

Everybody knows about his traumas, and I do not want the thread to become a debate about that traumas.

Nor personal traumas are a justification for violence.

But Tyrion does not actually do anything violent. He talks a lot.

But what he really does is telling it high voice that he stopped falling in love of everybody he share sex with, after a life of allowing himself to be decieved by those he loved.

And we do se that he does not try to share anything sexual with Septa Lemore, he just recognize to himself that he finds her desirable in a way one could describe as: "Is Brad Pitt a cool guy? Could you kiss him? Sure!!". He does like her, but he does not relation himself to her in a way that implies in any way he is trying to fuck her. That he does so "just" because he knows very clearly that she does not want to be a partner of his, implies only that he cares for what she thinks, wants or feels.

He does consider her in a different way from the slaves Illiryo bought for him to fuck, because of his reputation of liking women. Is Illiryo better or worse than Tyrion to the slave? Is Tyrion terrible for telling her the truth, that her life does not mean nothing to her owner? Or is her owner, who does not care for her life, to blame? Or is Pentos, city in which money can buy people's life, to blame?

And in Volantis, although his language may sound inappropriate to a pharisee, was not a matter for the person he was talking to: she was clever enough not to judge him on it, and she ended up with him saying that if he could, he would have voted for her. That is quite different from wanting to use her sexually.

And what would anybody call the feelings Tyrion manifest to Penny but empathy?

Tyrion may have talked harshly with some girl, after his trauma.

But he does not think (anymore?) than all women have the same use to him, and nothing he could say about Cersei will change this.

The same that, with all the justifications we can get for him, nothing will change that he committed a double murder.

Is this unpopular? :P

[Evamitchelle]

But Tyrion does not actually do anything violent. He talks a lot.

Um, how about what he did to Symeon Silver-Tongue (turned into stew), Tywin (bolt in the groin), Shae (slapped then choked her) ? He also hit Joffrey a couple of times, threatened to break Cersei's arm, poisoned her, had 80-year-old Maester Pycelle assaulted by Shagga (or Timett, can't remember) and thrown in a dungeon etc. He does his fair share of violence.

And we do se that he does not try to share anything sexual with Septa Lemore, he just recognize to himself that he finds her desirable in a way one could describe as: "Is Brad Pitt a cool guy? Could you kiss him? Sure!!". He does like her, but he does not relation himself to her in a way that implies in any way he is trying to fuck her. That he does so "just" because he knows very clearly that she does not want to be a partner of his, implies only that he cares for what she thinks, wants or feels.

He does tell her he'd rather see her naked that clothed besides thinking about how much he'd like to fuck her.

He does consider her in a different way from the slaves Illiryo bought for him to fuck, because of his reputation of liking women. Is Illiryo better or worse than Tyrion to the slave? Is Tyrion terrible for telling her the truth, that her life does not mean nothing to her owner? Or is her owner, who does not care for her life, to blame? Or is Pentos, city in which money can buy people's life, to blame?

I'm sure she was already aware of this without having Tyrion remind her of her poor living conditions. Threatening to strangle her wasn't necessary to tell her that either.

And in Volantis, although his language may sound inappropriate to a pharisee, was not a matter for the person he was talking to: she was clever enough not to judge him on it, and she ended up with him saying that if he could, he would have voted for her. That is quite different from wanting to use her sexually.

That's because the Widow of the Waterfront isn't beautiful enough and old as well.

[mediterraneo]

Um, how about what he did to Symeon Silver-Tongue (turned into stew), Tywin (bolt in the groin), Shae (slapped then choked her) ? He also hit Joffrey a couple of times, threatened to break Cersei's arm, poisoned her, had 80-year-old Maester Pycelle assaulted by Shagga (or Timett, can't remember) and thrown in a dungeon etc. He does his fair share of violence.

Hello!

I generally disagree with your point, but here I must clarify: I wrote my post in the context of a debate about Tyrion's mysoginist behaviour about women after the end of ASOS. I had in mind a very well expressed post by Alexia, the number 51 at page 3 of this thread, which is based on a list of quotings of Tyrion's in ADWD.

You'll see that no one of the examples there apply to the timetable and context which was considered. Tyrion killed his own father and Shae, I called him a murderer for that in the post you quote there, and I can add that with violence he saved Catelyn's life during the battle on the Hills on the route to the Vale in AGOT. That's violence too.

On my general disagreement with your other points:

I did not get the sensation of a deliberate seduction attempt of septa Lemore. And It seems to me that it is quite clear to Lemore too that there is no seduction attempt going on. You may have, though, and you may even be right.

On the slave girl. Illiryo bought her. Illiryo bought her because he was told that Tyrion likes whores. Illiryo knows and doesn't matter that Tyrion already killed a whore he had be a client for. Illiryo sent the girl in Tyrion's bed. And we are talking about Tyrion's misogyny, not harshness. My previous post calls him harsh on that.

The lady in the last Tyrion's chapter in Volantis is an old lady, and Tyrion respects her even if he does not have any sexual interest in her. Is this what are you trying to say?

On a last note, I would like to know what do you think on my idea of calling empathy the feeling Tyrion has about Penny, the part of my post that you didn't include in your post.

Cheers!

EDIT: turned a phrasing order to smooth it, on the 5th line from the end of the post.

[Evamitchelle]

Hello!

I generally disagree with your point, but here I must clarify: I wrote my post in the context of a debate about Tyrion's mysoginist behaviour about women after the end of ASOS. I had in mind a very well expressed post by Alexia, the number 51 at page 3 of this thread, which is based on a list of quotings of Tyrion's in ADWD.

You'll see that no one of the examples there apply to the timetable and context which was considered. Tyrion killed his own father and Shae, I called him a murderer for that in the post you quote there, and I can add that with violence he saved Catelyn's life during the battle on the Hills on the route to the Vale in AGOT. That's violence too.

I excluded all the battles Tyrion fought in (Battle of the Camps, of the Blackwater) as well as the one on the eastern road because it's either self-defence or war and it doesn't seem a good indicator of violent tendencies in people to me (Ned fought in battle but doesn't seem prone to violence at all, despite maybe that one time when LF implied Cat was a whore). But Tyrion does seem to have a violent/sadistic streak to me, though it's true he doesn't show it much through physical acts of violence in ADwD where he prefers to go back to insults/mockery.

On my general disagreement with your other points:

I did not get the sensation of a deliberate seduction attempt of septa Lemore. And It seems to me that it is quite clear to Lemore too that there is no seduction attempt going on. You may have, though, and you may even be right.

Tyrion doesn't try to seduce her at all, but that's almost worse than if he did try because he just considers her as a sex object for his personal use and doesn't even care what she'd think about it.

On the slave girl. Illiryo bought her. Illiryo bought her because he was told that Tyrion likes whores. Illiryo knows and doesn't matter that Tyrion already killed a whore he had be a client for. Illiryo sent the girl in Tyrion's bed. And we are talking about Tyrion's misogyny, not harshness. My previous post calls him harsh on that.

I think she was bought for Viserys actually, not for Tyrion.

The lady in the last Tyrion's chapter in Volantis is an old lady, and Tyrion respects her even if he does not have any sexual interest in her. Is this what are you trying to say?

I think Tyrion can only respect women he's not attracted to, and the Widow of the Waterfront, due to her old age and general unattractiveness.

On a last note, I would like to know what do you think on my idea of calling empathy the feeling Tyrion has about Penny, the part of my post that you didn't include in your post.

Cheers!

I kinda breezed through ADwD so I only remember the broad lines of Tyrion's story in the book, but from what I can remember he was mostly nice to her, with some insults/mockery thrown in every once in a while but he did slap her in his last POV (though very lightly) because she told him of her dream that she was back jousting with her brother. That doesn't really seem an appropriate reaction to a teen telling you she wants her brother to be alive again.

[Alexia]

On the slave girl. Illiryo bought her. Illiryo bought her because he was told that Tyrion likes whores. Illiryo knows and doesn't matter that Tyrion already killed a whore he had be a client for. Illiryo sent the girl in Tyrion's bed.

I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Is Illyrio an evil bastard? Yes. Is Tyrion A-okay to issue strangling threats against sex slaves because there is no one in the world to care if they live or die. No, he's not, and the fact that Illyrio doesn't care if he murders the girl is hardly a mitigating circumstance.

[Noimporta]

Unpopular opinion: Doran Martell can't plot his way out of a paper bag, and has so set himself up to get burnt.

Really? Out of the two plots we've seen, one succeeded (Revenge for Elia) and one failed (Marriage alliance), and exactly five dornishmen died during the war (and two of them got themselves killed). I guess this ties in to an unpopular (OK, not really unpopular, frankly, none of these opinions are unpopular, they are divisive or controversial at worst, in fact, why don't they just call these threads "controversial opinions") opinion of mine, Doran gets too much flak for his plotting. Yes, he is very conservative, how can anyone that styles themselves a "good ruler" can be anything but conservative when the pieces they are playing with are their own subjects? I can understand that some players are forced to take risks due to their situation, but Dorne is protected by its deserts, there needs to be some really huge plot-forced shenanigans for Dorne to be severely affected by the game as long as he plays calm.

Granted, all this makes him less interesting than other characters, but it's silly to denounce his way of playing.

[Evamitchelle]

Really? Out of the two plots we've seen, one succeeded (Revenge for Elia) and one failed (Marriage alliance), and exactly five dornishmen died during the war (and two of them got themselves killed). I guess this ties in to an unpopular (OK, not really unpopular, frankly, none of these opinions are unpopular, they are divisive or controversial at worst, in fact, why don't they just call these threads "controversial opinions") opinion of mine, Doran gets too much flak for his plotting. Yes, he is very conservative, how can anyone that styles themselves a "good ruler" can be anything but conservative when the pieces they are playing with are their own subjects? I can understand that some players are forced to take risks due to their situation, but Dorne is protected by its deserts, there needs to be some really huge plot-forced shenanigans for Dorne to be severely affected by the game as long as he plays calm.

Granted, all this makes him less interesting than other characters, but it's silly to denounce his way of playing.

I wouldn't say the Revenge plot worked since he lost his brother to avenge his sister, I wouldn't say that's exactly success. The marriage alliance failed twice actually, first when Viserys was killed, then when Quentyn was. He fails to prevent Arianne from absconding with Myrcella, which results in her having an ear cut off and her face permanently scarred and Arys Oakheart killed, which could very well cause big problems with the Lannisters. All the plots he's made until now have failed or backfired on him in some way.

[Noimporta]

You can't really hold Arianne's play against him any more than you can blame Tywin for not forseeing Jaime would free Tyrion and the latter would go after him. If anything, he reacted fast enough that he'd been able to prevent all damage were it not for Darkstar attacking Myrcella for no apparent reason.

[littlespider]

Sigh. Me too.

Sometimes I thinking Tyrion is like Smoking. You love cigarettes, and find lots of excuses for why smoking isn't as bad as others say. Then finally something makes you quit smoking and you become a reformed smoker and really can't remember what you liked about smoking in the first place.

Now replace Smoking with Tyrion.

I suggest switching to weed.

[brashcandy]

You can't really hold Arianne's play against him any more than you can blame Tywin for not forseeing Jaime would free Tyrion and the latter would go after him. If anything, he reacted fast enough that he'd been able to prevent all damage were it not for Darkstar attacking Myrcella for no apparent reason.

Of course it should be held against him. Arianne would not have even come up with the idea if Doran had let her know of his original plans and subsequent adjustments with Quentyn. The girl was desperate, and then Doran has the audacity to lock her up and refuse to speak to her for weeks, because somehow she should have been a mind reader and figured out that after 16 yrs or so, Doran was justabouttodosomethingmeaningful. :rolleyes:

[mediocre cheese]

I suggest switching to weed.

No lung cancer risks, from weed. Plus food tastes better when your high.

Really? Out of the two plots we've seen, one succeeded (Revenge for Elia)

I don't recall him having a plot to avenge elia. I remember her assailants being killed in unrelated instances, after 15 years of going about their lives unmolested.

[Evamitchelle]

You can't really hold Arianne's play against him any more than you can blame Tywin for not forseeing Jaime would free Tyrion and the latter would go after him. If anything, he reacted fast enough that he'd been able to prevent all damage were it not for Darkstar attacking Myrcella for no apparent reason.

Arianne didn't decide to crown Myrcella overnight, she actually gives a lot of thought into the thing, unlike Jaime who just hears Tyrion's been arrested and seeks out Ned immediately. Even so Doran obviously had an "insider" into her plans since he knew when and where to send Areo Hotah to stop them. In The Princess in the Tower chapter :

Arianne - You knew, and yet you still allowed us to make off with Myrcella. Why ?

Doran - That was my mistake, and it proved a grievous one. [...] I found it hard to believe that you would conspire against me.

Definitely a mistake on his part.

[littlespider]

No lung cancer risks, from weed. Plus food tastes better when your high.

Especially when you're munching on unborn puppies on a stick, amirite?

[mediocre cheese]

Especially when you're munching on unborn puppies on a stick, amirite?

Harold Belwas and Kumar Arstan go to white castle Mcjellied dog burgers.

[Noimporta]

Definitely a mistake on his part.

I misremembered that part, I concede that was a mistake.

The girl was desperate, and then Doran has the audacity to lock her up and refuse to speak to her for weeks, because somehow she should have been a mind reader and figured out that after 16 yrs or so,

Desperate about what? If her problem was the succession (due to the letter she read), she could've brought it up with him, instead, she planned a reckless revolution. Perhaps he should've let her in on the marriage plan, perhaps it wasn't such a smart decision to tell a girl who's by all accounts naturally impulsive, and seems to trust people she shouldn't (Darkstar, and whoever gave her out) that she's going to be queen of Westeros one day.

I don't recall him having a plot to avenge elia. I remember her assailants being killed in unrelated instances, after 15 years of going about their lives unmolested.

I recall him and Oberyn being together in it, but I seem to be misremembering an awful lot of stuff today, so that might be a mistake on my part too.