R+L=J v.18

[kermischocolate]

I'm currently mid way through re-reading all the books in the series so forgive me if I'm about to ask some obvious questions:

• how and when does Ned find out Lyanna is at the ToJ?
  

• when did she go there in the first place, under what circumstances and with whom?
  

• everyone seems to know Rhaegar had a thing for Lyanna but no one seems to know/act like it was more that a short-lived thing except for Robert (with the accusation Rhaegar raped her- how does he know this???) and Barristan (Rhaegar fell in love and thousands died for it). Why does no one else refer to the Crown Prince swanning off with the only daughter of the Starks when there's a war going on?? Surely this would have been gossip/the story of the century at the time throughout the entire kingdom and people would still be talking about it years later?
  

Don't get me wrong, I believe R+L=J is true but just think there's much more to the story than has already been revealed.

I don't think Jon will end up on the Iron Throne because regardless of whether he's the rightful heir or not his character and beliefs have been instilled by Ned Stark, i.e. he's not going to abandon the NW on a technicality. He may be half-Targ but his sense of honour and duty come from how he was raised (nature v nuture anyone?). He made an oath to the NW- it's one thing to not be able to fulfill it because of the other NW brothers but entirely another to choose to relinquish it and become the anthisis of what you believe in.

• was Lyanna the central reason for the rebellion in the first place or was she just the excuse Robert needed to justify a "legitimate" rebellion
  

[FanTasy]

• was Lyanna the central reason for the rebellion in the first place or was she just the excuse Robert needed to justify a "legitimate" rebellion
  

Hi Kermischocolate. Much of what you're asking is still a mystery. Regarding the last 'bullit': I personally think the kidnap / affair fitted into the political ambitions of some of the players, because I don't believe wars are caused just by love affairs or by kidnapping a maiden. I doubt Troy was besieged just because Paris kidnapped Helena.

[Alia of the knife]

Ugh. Why am I getting the feeling that the change won't be for the good? - Because it's GRRM, apparently :-7

May I return to something I have asked previously - this thread or another, I don't really know - and I did not receive a satisfactory answer: is it known who was where at the time of Lyanna's supposed kidnapping? Brandon was to get married soon; were the Starks still at Winterfell, or already travelling down South, since I suppose lord Rickard would hardly miss his firstborn's wedding? How and where did the abduction happen and how did it become known that it was Raeghar's work? And, from which source did the information reach Brandon? It has been hinted several times that Raeghar would leave KL for prolonged periods of time (visits to Summerhall and elsewhere, e.g. to Connington's), and it wouldn't take much asking to find out quickly whether the crown prince was at KL or not. Would it be possible that Brandon was intentionally mislead to believe Raeghar was at KL? Because, hothead or not, a couple of days' ride from Riverrun to KL still gives you some time for thinking what to do when you arrive, yet his action was truly foolish. I don't think LF had the means to conceive some revenge at that time (or could he? getting Brandon into trouble _would_ be something he would enjoy) but Varys with his little birds was already there; could there be some scheming running behind the scenes even then?

On Jon,

I don't think that is necessarily the case.

He will be a profoundly different person, maybe his "true" self awakened, or heightened, but it may be a case study of the two different paths that Dany and Jon take.

Dany does "good" things, but are they really for others as much as for herself as this grandiose "great" Mother?

Jon is already making decisions not popular with others, however, as a real leader, sometimes unpopular decisions have to be made.

As for your other questions, I defer to others, (small o :)), because I am a disaster with the timelines.

[Alia of the knife]

I'm currently mid way through re-reading all the books in the series so forgive me if I'm about to ask some obvious questions:

• how and when does Ned find out Lyanna is at the ToJ?
  

• when did she go there in the first place, under what circumstances and with whom?
  

• everyone seems to know Rhaegar had a thing for Lyanna but no one seems to know/act like it was more that a short-lived thing except for Robert (with the accusation Rhaegar raped her- how does he know this???) and Barristan (Rhaegar fell in love and thousands died for it). Why does no one else refer to the Crown Prince swanning off with the only daughter of the Starks when there's a war going on?? Surely this would have been gossip/the story of the century at the time throughout the entire kingdom and people would still be talking about it years later?
  

Don't get me wrong, I believe R+L=J is true but just think there's much more to the story than has already been revealed.

I don't think Jon will end up on the Iron Throne because regardless of whether he's the rightful heir or not his character and beliefs have been instilled by Ned Stark, i.e. he's not going to abandon the NW on a technicality. He may be half-Targ but his sense of honour and duty come from how he was raised (nature v nuture anyone?). He made an oath to the NW- it's one thing to not be able to fulfill it because of the other NW brothers but entirely another to choose to relinquish it and become the anthisis of what you believe in.

• was Lyanna the central reason for the rebellion in the first place or was she just the excuse Robert needed to justify a "legitimate" rebellion
  

- Ashara was probably the tip-off

- According to Danys remembrances, Rhaegar took her at swordpoint, so if that is true, it was in public most likey and it is speculated she was on her way to Riverrun for Brandons wedding.

- I think most people are of the opinion that as Crown Prince, perhaps his wanting Lyanna was not the thing that was THE big deal to them, so while it's great gossip it probably deserved no more mention, and as far as they were concerned he could have her.

The Starks didn't mean anything to the South, and probably not the humiliation of Elia either.

Given enough time, and had Rhaegar lived and ruled as a great King, that event would probably be turned to his favor as the greatest romantic act of the century, as well as the fact that another scandal would undoubtedy come along to replace that one.

What really started the rebellion was Aerys going after his Lords and his madness, not a mere woman.

As bad as the event with Brandon and Rickard was, if Aerys had stopped at them, then perhaps things wouldn't have gotten out of control, but when he killed not only Brandon, but his Father, called for Robert and Neds heads, it spiraled down from there.

I think the big elephant in the room is the lack of Lyannas POV.

Rhaegar was a paragon to everyone, and they would have denied him nothing, so if Lyannas virtue was in question and she was some little outlander temptress, I'm sure they would mentioned and blamed Lyanna for Rhaegars downfall if they could.

It's just like in the real history of those times, the woman bore the brunt of responsibility for the morality of society, her House and the men who surrounded her.

The fact that she isn't mentioned sometimes smacks of a feeling of discomfort on the subject.

It's the same when you like someone and they do something inappropriate, your uncomfortable talking about it, and perhaps don't.

(However, as much as Selmy admired Rhaegar and thought he was a good man, he does on this issue criticize Rhaegar for apparently choosing his heart over duty, something he wonders if Dany will do).

Or, it was just accepted common knowledge Rhaegar had taken another wife in light of Elia now being barren, and again, had Brandon and Aerys not escalated things, the rebellion wouldn't have happened.

Bribes, apologies, lands, and reparations would have been made, and everyone would have just moved on.

[Alia of the knife]

I have come to this discussion very late so I appologize if this has already been addressed. Also, I am am only just beginning my first re-read of the series so forgive me if I missed a ton of stuff the first time through.

My theory is that Lyanna and Raegar were actually in love. Whereas Raegar probably wanted to act on it, Lyanna was a Stark and thus chose to act honorably (Raegar had a wife and children and she was betrothed to Robert, so no touchy touchy). In this way she was unattainable, but Raegar took her anyway. She had the baby in the Tower of Joy and they sent it to Dorne to be wetnursed by Wylla to protect it (from Robert's wrath or possibly the wrath of the Martells). She was killed in the tower (by someone sent by the Martells mayhaps) and the promise she makes Ned make when he finds her dying is to find her son with Wylla and protect him...... After rereading my theory it kind of sounds like a crackpot one lol, but I'm sticking to it. However feel free to tear it apart. If I'm wrong I would like to be told haha.

As for the people who are agruing over whether Wylla knows Jon's true identity, I personally don't believe she does. Her knowledge would only serve to put his life at risk as she is another link that could be broken.

When did she corroborate Ned's story????? I think I missed that.

One other question I have: Could the child that Dany sees in the "dragon has three heads" vision; the one that Raegar's says "his is the song of ice and fire" about and "he is the prince that was promised" not actually be Aegon. Could it be that scene took place in the Tower of Joy with Lyanna the baby was in fact Jon (Raegar's attitude being a motive for the Martells assasinating Lyanna)?

I do agree with your analysis on Lyanna, and while I don't think the Martels would be happy with any woman who replaced Elia, I don't think they would be so rash as to kill her, though Tywin might have given he wanted to make Cersei Rhaegars Queen.

Imagine his fury that this wild beauty from the North just swooped in.

[corbon]

According to Danys remembrances, Rhaegar took her at swordpoint, so if that is true, it was in public most likey and it is speculated she was on her way to Riverrun for Brandons wedding.

Dany wasn't born at the time, so it is just a story she has been told, not her memory.

In fact it is highly doubtful if anyone Dany has ever been in contact with was present at the time. And unless Rhaegar was busy telling people about it when he came back to run the war before the the Trident, probably no one who was present ever spoke of it.

It is quite likely basically just a fable someone made up to fit the known facts. Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, Rickard had affianced her to Baratheon, so the running off must logically have been at swordpoint.

The swordpoint could also be referencing Lyanna's guards/armsmen, not Lyanna herself.

[clover]

I am halfway through SOS so I am about halfway through the series too.

Just wondering now after reading this awesome thread if the Starks have always been a thorn in Cersei's side.

Lyanna Stark gets with Rhaegar who she would've liked to marry, and Robert is never the husband she thought he should be with her either because of Lyanna. And Robert was BFF's with Ned.

Makes me wonder.

Does it possibly go back that far? Her ego is sensitive.

[Alia of the knife]

Dany wasn't born at the time, so it is just a story she has been told, not her memory.

In fact it is highly doubtful if anyone Dany has ever been in contact with was present at the time. And unless Rhaegar was busy telling people about it when he came back to run the war before the the Trident, probably no one who was present ever spoke of it.

It is quite likely basically just a fable someone made up to fit the known facts. Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, Rickard had affianced her to Baratheon, so the running off must logically have been at swordpoint.

The swordpoint could also be referencing Lyanna's guards/armsmen, not Lyanna herself.

I get that.

I never read it that she herself might have fought him, (though that could be possible), but that she was taken in public and her escort reacted, because if she had been alone, probably no need for swordpoints, and if she was alone, who would know how she was taken?

I can't see throwing in that extra detail of "taken at swordpoint" as something the men in her life, (Father, Brothers, Robert, etc.),would need to make up if she was alone.

She's a woman, there should be no need to take a lone woman at sword point.

If their intent is to erode, or diminish Rhaegars reputation, and hold Lyanna less accountable, then his "kidnapping" her is bad enough.

However, Dany is envisioning this event through the positive prism of romance.

Whatever way Dany heard about this event, and whoever said it is speculation.

But if we source this event back to the people you are referring to, then she would not be thinking of such an event in a positive way, because the context would be hostile.

[Ygrain]

- According to Danys remembrances, Rhaegar took her at swordpoint, so if that is true, it was in public most likey and it is speculated she was on her way to Riverrun for Brandons wedding.

I absolutely missed this part, can you recall where it is, story-wise?

Good point that Dany's version might be embellished ot entirely untrue. - Frankly: kidnapping a mighty Lord's daughter at a sword point, before witnesses????? I was under the impression that Raeghar was the sane one in the family. - Unless this was a ruse - to protect Lyanna's honour.

[Glyn Tarvoke]

There is more things wrong with that theory, then just the timeline. Like, what's a wet nurse from Dorne doing in the sisters? Why would Ned lie to Robert??? (it makes sense that Ned would lie to Robert, to sell the story, to keep R+L=J secret. But it doesn't make sense, that he lied to Robert if Jon's mother was the firshermans daughter)

Also we know that Wylla was not Jon's mother, she was his milk mother, big difference.

There are just so many things that do not add up, in regards to Jon's mother being the firshermans daughter, from the Sisters.

Also the explanation that Lord Godric gives, for why Jon was named Jon, does not make any sense at all.

None of it makes any sense.

It makes sense in this way: GRMM is giving us false clues; GRMM is showing us how people get false stories. From the information Lord Godric has in his possession, his version of events makes sense. It also sets up Stannis's fishwife comments\jokes about Jon.

One of the great things about these books is the way characters get events wrong, but somehow in a logical way.

[Alia of the knife]

I absolutely missed this part, can you recall where it is, story-wise?

Good point that Dany's version might be embellished ot entirely untrue. - Frankly: kidnapping a mighty Lord's daughter at a sword point, before witnesses????? I was under the impression that Raeghar was the sane one in the family. - Unless this was a ruse - to protect Lyanna's honour.

It's on page 577 of ADWD.

And it's true that Dany would like to be saved from a marriage she didn't want, which may have been why she thought of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but as I've said, I try to keep an open mind about this incident.

A lot of things could have factored into why swords might have been drawn, and not the least of which is that Rhaegar may have been putting himself in the position of the "bad guy" to protect her honor. :)

I am not anti-Rhaegar, but neither am I a Rhaegar purist, or Lyanna for that matter.

[FanTasy]

Thanks for the reference in ADWD!

Hmm ... it seems to me mainly a romantic notion/fantasy by Dany, she connects it to a thought about Daario kidnapping her.

If Barristan hasn't told her it went that way between Rghaegar and Lyanna then Dany has another source (Viserys? The books and songs Jorah gave her in AGOT as a wedding present?) Or it can be just a romantic notion.

[duncanthemedium]

Hi everyone. I have read all the books twice...and the hbo series at least 4 times. But am still confused as to why Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = Jon Snow, is not being entertained as a very real possobility. To me it all ties up, Brandon is formerly betrothed to his (as yet stranger wife), Ashara is mother to his dead brother's bastard while still being the sister of one of the most admired knights in Westeros, Arthur Dayne, whom he has just slain.

So MANY reasons for the honorable Eddard to raise the boy as his own, honoring his lord brother, the great kingsguard knight, and the twice grieving and lady lover/sister. Remember, how he also had a tihng for Ashara, when Brandon asks her to dance with Ned, him beign too shy.

Then Wylla is also the milk-mother to Edric Dayne and Jon Snow. Wylla who worked at Ashara Dayne's castle.

I mean it just makes so much more sense...no?

[Alia of the knife]

Hi everyone. I have read all the books twice...and the hbo series at least 4 times. But am still confused as to why Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = Jon Snow, is not being entertained as a very real possobility. To me it all ties up, Brandon is formerly betrothed to his (as yet stranger wife), Ashara is mother to his dead brother's bastard while still being the sister of one of the most admired knights in Westeros, Arthur Dayne, whom he has just slain.

So MANY reasons for the honorable Eddard to raise the boy as his own, honoring his lord brother, the great kingsguard knight, and the twice grieving and lady lover/sister. Remember, how he also had a tihng for Ashara, when Brandon asks her to dance with Ned, him beign too shy.

Then Wylla is also the milk-mother to Edric Dayne and Jon Snow. Wylla who worked at Ashara Dayne's castle.

I mean it just makes so much more sense...no?

I think the timeline is wrong, (and I am no expert), but Jon would be too young to be their son as he was only conceived months into the rebellion at the TOJ, which meshes with his age.

Another candidate I thought would be a better match for Ashara and Brandon's son is Darkstar, as he most resembles in character the Wild Wolf of Winterfell, BUT Darkstar is too old, as I think the book suggests he's around Ariannes age, and she's twenty-three.

OR

I could be as Martin says it is.

Ashara gave birth to a stillborn daughter, most likely Brandons, and that event takes her finally out of the running as Jons Mother.

Now, it's down to Wylla for the casual fan not on these boards, and for us, Wylla AND Lyanna.

[Dragonfish]

Hi everyone. I have read all the books twice...and the hbo series at least 4 times. But am still confused as to why Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = Jon Snow, is not being entertained as a very real possobility. To me it all ties up, Brandon is formerly betrothed to his (as yet stranger wife), Ashara is mother to his dead brother's bastard while still being the sister of one of the most admired knights in Westeros, Arthur Dayne, whom he has just slain.

So MANY reasons for the honorable Eddard to raise the boy as his own, honoring his lord brother, the great kingsguard knight, and the twice grieving and lady lover/sister. Remember, how he also had a tihng for Ashara, when Brandon asks her to dance with Ned, him beign too shy.

Then Wylla is also the milk-mother to Edric Dayne and Jon Snow. Wylla who worked at Ashara Dayne's castle.

I mean it just makes so much more sense...no?

Brandon was dead before Jon was conceived. We know this because George said that Jon was born about 8-9 months before Daenerys, putting his birth at around the Sack of King's Landing, which itself was close to a year into the war. That is why we don't seriously entertain the possibility that Brandon is his father. I don't blame you for not knowing this about the timeline, though, since none of this info is in the books themselves.

[Ghost714]

Hi everyone. I have read all the books twice...and the hbo series at least 4 times. But am still confused as to why Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = Jon Snow, is not being entertained as a very real possobility. To me it all ties up, Brandon is formerly betrothed to his (as yet stranger wife), Ashara is mother to his dead brother's bastard while still being the sister of one of the most admired knights in Westeros, Arthur Dayne, whom he has just slain.

So MANY reasons for the honorable Eddard to raise the boy as his own, honoring his lord brother, the great kingsguard knight, and the twice grieving and lady lover/sister. Remember, how he also had a tihng for Ashara, when Brandon asks her to dance with Ned, him beign too shy.

Then Wylla is also the milk-mother to Edric Dayne and Jon Snow. Wylla who worked at Ashara Dayne's castle.

I mean it just makes so much more sense...no?

I understand why Ned would raise Jon, but why would Ned have to claim Jon as his own if this is true? Why would Ned have to lie and say he cheated on Cat, if Jon is the son of Brandon and Ashara??? It makes sense that Ned would lie about cheating on Cat, and about being Jon's father, in the case of R+L=J.

But I can't see how it would make sense in the case of B+A=J.

And all of this is without regards to the timeline (which the timeline alone makes it impossible)

[Alia of the knife]

I understand why Ned would raise Jon, but why would Ned have to claim Jon as his own if this is true? Why would Ned have to lie and say he cheated on Cat, if Jon is the son of Brandon and Ashara??? It makes sense that Ned would lie about cheating on Cat, and about being Jon's father, in the case of R+L=J.

But I can't see how it would make sense in the case of B+A=J.

And all of this is without regards to the timeline (which the timeline alone makes it impossible)

Exactly.

He could just be the dutiful Ned everyone knows, and is taking responsibility, (yet again), for something else that was "meant for Brandon."

Of course for Caitlyn, her situation doesn't change, and she's haunted by Ashara again.

Personally, I do hope that Brandons character is fleshed out more.