Sandor Clegane v. 14

[clover]

Thanks for the welcome, Rapsie.

I think she will grow stronger, more thick-skinned, more astute regarding people and their motives, and more of a realist, but her strong point is being a romantic, her capacity for caring and sympathy, and softness, and I am not sure she will lose that entirely.

The day she becomes bitter, her arc is over.

She can keep her good qualities, and just lose the naivete, and realize that you can't have everything exactly as you imagine it, nor will everyone be exactly as you picture. If she drops some of the childish ideals she'll be ok.

I think she will realize that she can have love and be loved, have passion with someone, but it is not going to come in the gilded physical package with a bow like the songs of gallant knights that she enjoys.Just drop the rosy mental pictures of perfection and she is one the road to more maturity and adulthood.

She seems to be realizing this already and is on the correct path.

I don't know what I think about her marrying, taking a lover, because even though I am only two books in, I can't help it, but I am on the Sandor/Sansa ship. LOL!

I think he is everything she wants deep down. Brave, loyal, passionate, strong, can protect her and make her feel safe, is honorable, and hell, he loves her. And if he can become a bit less gruff and more polished, and er, doesn't die, there is potential. Ok, he probably needs to work on himself more than just that but I think there is promise.

I can't see any man introduced so far that has the capacity to love her for who she is and not Winterfell and her being a Stark than him.

So what other man could it be? And she doesn't deserve less than his rapt devotion to her.

Now, Martin allowing them to be together in the end. Whether that happens or not, there is no telling.

[Starbird]

Littlespider - re: loving to read about plagues - you and me both, sister! All hail greyscale!

I agree. Pretty much every character in this series has suffered through some fairly significant emotional and/or physical trauma, and we have seen many of them react by developing into manipulators, tyrants, unrepented killers, or self-righteous asshats. From a narrative standpoint, It would be refreshing to see Sansa avoid that route and stay true to her original values, while still growing stronger and more confident.

To bring this back on topic of the Hound: in lieu of a sex scene, is it weird that I would like to see a scene in which Sansa washes Sandor's hair (not sure how this would come about)? He certainly needs it, and it would be a very tender and intimate moment, without subjecting us to one of GRRM's sex scenes. Just me? I'll show myself out. :leaving:

It would. I'm more opposed to the idea of her marrying Harry the Heir (who I believe will be a grade A jerk). I'd much rather have her refuse to marry at all. I don't like the idea of her keeping Sandor on the side. I'd rather have her make her preference for him public. I'm not saying it has to be a formal declaration, but just the act of them being/living their lives together would be enough.

I could be on board with a hair-washing scene but how gross for Sansa to see either lice run out of it, or the filthy water left behind?

I'm much more concerned about her potentially going along with the plot to murder Sweetrobin in order to marry HTH, than I am about the decisions she makes regarding whom she loves.

Here's what I found interesting about her initial interactions with LF, after he plucked her out of KL:

Dontos gets quarelled

"BTW, I slept with your mom."

"Oh, well, if she was into it, I guess that's cool."

I mean, damn. Was she even off the boat?? She *immediately* falls in step. She doesn't think about how creepy LF made her feel at the Hand's Tourney, she doesn't think, Gee, that's awfully OOC for my mom, she doesn't say, "Really, she never mentioned you." She assimilates it. It's kind of strange, after growing up on knights and songs and all of that. Maybe it's just her survival instinct kicking in but her internal thoughts of "oh, if she loved him, I guess that makes it okay" are, I think, kind of telling. I could see her applying this to Sandor, as I think we'll see her apply some but not all of LF's (and Cersei's) teachings to her political life. We see her struggle to suppress Sansa and be Alayne but, ultimately, I think Sansa is going to win out.

Having said all that, there's No. Way. I think for one second Sansa will collude with LF in offing Sweetrobin. No way. He's what's keeping her sweet nature alive. LF may be getting dutiful kisses but it's SR she's nurturing. I can't see her just shutting down that part of her personality. Her 'nurturing' of Sandor diffused more than one tough situation. It's worked for her in the past so why not use it again? Plus, kindness is her default reaction to hurt people. Rather than plotting with him, I could see her warming up LF to get him to spare SR. I don't see that marriage to HTH taking place, either. It'll be like that "let's take Joffrey to a brothel" scheme we were discussing a few pages back.

[The_Salt_Wife]

I have a question about the chapter in which Arya and Sandor dispose of Polliver, The Tickler and the squire.

My apologies if this has been discussed before in a previous thread.

It seems to me that initially neither Polliver nor the Tickler seems very keen on fighting the Hound. They even apologize for the squire's drunken blabbering. Yet in the end it is the Tickler who starts the fight. Why exactly did they make a 180° turn on that? I always interpreted their initial reluctance a deference to Sandor's skill as a warrior.

[littlespider]

I have a question about the chapter in which Arya and Sandor dispose of Polliver, The Tickler and the squire.

My apologies if this has been discussed before in a previous thread.

It seems to me that initially neither Polliver nor the Tickler seems very keen on fighting the Hound. They even apologize for the squire's drunken blabbering. Yet in the end it is the Tickler who starts the fight. Why exactly did they make a 180° turn on that? I always interpreted their initial reluctance a deference to Sandor's skill as a warrior.

I am going to have to look this up. Arya's viewpoint says that it all started at once; the Hound and Tickler drew at the same moment. The subtext of impending violence is rife fromthe second they walk into the Inn, though Arya doesn't see it. The point is that the Mountain Patrol wants to haul Sandor back before his brother, who's going to make him pay for fleeing from KL during the battle. Sandor is having none of that.

Kudos to Arya for pretty much saving his drunk ass during that fight.

[1234567]

Kudos to Arya for pretty much saving his drunk ass during that fight.

Indeed...but when she kills the Tickler...well he deserved to go, but she really bloody went for it. I actually thought she was quite scary in that scene.

[The_Salt_Wife]

I am going to have to look this up. Arya's viewpoint says that it all started at once; the Hound and Tickler drew at the same moment. The subtext of impending violence is rife fromthe second they walk into the Inn, though Arya doesn't see it. The point is that the Mountain Patrol wants to haul Sandor back before his brother, who's going to make him pay for fleeing from KL during the battle. Sandor is having none of that.

Kudos to Arya for pretty much saving his drunk ass during that fight.

The real fight starts when the Tickler suddenly throws a knife at Sandor, to which Sandor quips he was hoping they would do something stupid.

But before that moment, Polliver and the Tickler appear to be actively avoiding a fight. If a confrontation was what they wanted, they could have piled on some on the insults the squire was throwing at Sandor. Instead they themselves shut the youngster up.

[Bugger that]

The real fight starts when the Tickler suddenly throws a knife at Sandor, to which Sandor quips he was hoping they would do something stupid.

But before that moment, Polliver and the Tickler appear to be actively avoiding a fight. If a confrontation was what they wanted, they could have piled on some on the insults the squire was throwing at Sandor. Instead they themselves shut the youngster up.

Maybe they thought they would be able to handle him after witnessing him gulping down wine?

[1234567]

Arya says the knife would have cored his throat. I think they were waiting for an opportunity to try and get him at a disadvantage.

EDIT: What is interesting that Arya stayed to fight. It was her best chance up until that point to flee, but instead she stayed to fight with him.

[Lady Meera Reed]

I have a question about the chapter in which Arya and Sandor dispose of Polliver, The Tickler and the squire.

My apologies if this has been discussed before in a previous thread.

It seems to me that initially neither Polliver nor the Tickler seems very keen on fighting the Hound. They even apologize for the squire's drunken blabbering. Yet in the end it is the Tickler who starts the fight. Why exactly did they make a 180° turn on that? I always interpreted their initial reluctance a deference to Sandor's skill as a warrior.

I also think they didn't want to cross the Hound. IIRC, Sandor suddenly asked them if there were still ships at Saltpans (which IMO, he just did to avoid the "Sansa's other sister" topic). Sandor didn't mean to let Gregor's men know where they were going, but I think since he already blurted it out there's no turning back. All hell breaks loose when The Tickler said he'd rather return with Sandor in Harrenhal or KL ..

[Starbird]

It goes down like this: (it's too long to quote the whole thing)

Arya and Sandor enter, everyone recognizes everyone else. Polliver asks if Sandor's looking for his brother. He's looking for wine and orders some. The squire insults him, the Tickler "put a warning hand on the boy's arm, and gave a short sharp shake of his head." The squire keeps talking, Sandor stares him down but doesn't say anything. Polliver says the squire can't hold his liquor, Sandor advises against drinking then. The squire mouths off some more, the Ticker pinches his ear.

Sandor downs half a flagon of wine and tells the barkeep T/P/squire will likely tickle him for his gold. The bar clears out.

Polliver says Gregor's left Harrenhal because the queen called him and, oh, btw, Joffrey's dead. Sandor makes a snide comment about the Kingsguard and asks who killed him. The Imp and his wife. What wife? The Hound sits down on the bench closest to the door, mouth twitching only on the burned side (can't control that side?). "She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him until the moon turns black."

He downs an entire cup of wine and changes the subject to Gregor/Harrenhal. He's filled in a bit and then asks about the Blackfish/Riverrun and he's filled in a bit on that, too. Sandor has another cup of wine and comments on Sansa's escape. "They'll find her," said Polliver. "If it takes half the gold in Casterly Rock." "A pretty girl, I hear," said the Tickler. "Honey sweet." He smacked his lips and smiled. "And courteous," the Hound agreed. "A proper little lady. Not like her bloody sister." (Good control on his part.)

Polliver says they found her sister and Sandor laughs at that but doesn't blow Arya's cover. "What's so bloody funny?" asked Polliver. "If I'd wanted you to know, I'd have told you. Are there ships at Saltpans?" No one cares about Saltpans.

Apparently the Tickler senses a prize slipping through his fingers. The Tickler leaned forward. "Would you put to sea without saying farewell to your brother? ... Ser would sooner you returned to Harrenhal with us, Sandor. I bet he would. Or King's Landing . . . " Then the line of the series: "Bugger that. Bugger him. Bugger you." The Tickler shrugged, straightened, and reached a hand behind his head to rub the back of his neck. Everything seemed to happen at once then; Sandor lurched to his feet, Polliver drew his longsword, and the Tickler's hand whipped around in a blur to send something silver flashing across the common room. Sandor laughs, hoping they'd do something stupid.

So, I think, basically, the Tickler just wanted to bring Sandor in to curry favor with Gregor. Sandor drank a LOT of wine in a very short amount of time, insulted them, was seated, and hinted that he'd be leaving town. I think all those things lead the Tickler to figure it was now or never if they were going to bring him in. I think they were cautious in the beginning because a sober Sandor is a dangerous Sandor. A drunk, seated Sandor, on the other hand . . .

It's interesting that the Tickler calls him "Sandor." Gregor is "Ser," and Sandor already told the barkeep not to call him that. It seems like a last ditch effort to try to get him to come quietly.

Sandor's also amazingly untouched by news of Joffrey's death. It's as though it's just interesting gossip about someone he didn't know. He says, "So much for my brave brothers of the Kingsguard." The Hound gave a snort of contempt. "Who killed him?"

[Candor]

God one night of proper uninterrupted sleep....and 3 pages fly by. :tantrum: So sorry this is dealing with posts from a couple of pages back!

Nope. The entire list was written as off the top of my head as I tried to think of characters that IMHO, Sandor is better than! I realize now that perhaps I should have categorized them! Although I am now scared that you have some weird insight to my psych that I'm unaware of! :eek:

I’m with you on the Stannis love. :wub: He is my second favourite character after Sandor (and followed by Sansa and Davos.) I guess I’m a sucker for the two great romances in the series. Sandor doesn’t look great compared to Stannis, but I do think Sandor is a better man than him. However I think Sandor rocks, and Stannis is just a bit behind him in that regard.

Sandor, Stannis, Sansa, and Davos are your favorite four? Rapsie, I think we may share a brain! 'Cause those are mine, exactly those four! :laugh: And regarding the Stannis/Davos "friendship" (epic romance), well, yes, that might be why I was drawn to them initially, but seperately I find both men very intriguing for different reasons. But this isn't a Stannis or Davos thread so I can't get fully into my wub mode. :wub:

Anyway!

Sandor is a good case of actions speaking louder than words. He says a lot of mean things and uses bloody threatening language, but he doesn’t follow through. If he intends to do something, he does it and doesn't seem to issue threats beforehand.

I agree that it is only through his interations with Arya and how she observes him with others that we know this. In fact although I like Sandor in the first two books and picked up on the him and Sansa thing, I was never comfortable with his intentions, until a SOS. Saying that, he still was fairly unpleasant to Sansa at times and that must have been a horrible for her. Sandor’s behaviour reminds me of Buttercup at the beginning of the Princess Bride, only Sandor never manages to articulate the following to well: “I love you,' Buttercup said. 'I know this must come as something of a surprise to you, since all I've ever done is scorn you and degrade you and taunt you”.

Now I want to hear Sandor say.... "As you wish." :drool:

[Candor]

Alright about plagues. You know, I like reading about plagues. For example I liked this book. But I'll also tell you, I don't want to read about plagues in this series. There's enough shit hitting the fan already, in my opinion, and then you're going to have to add in the Others soon enough. I'm hoping the plague is kept in Essos and the greyscale in Westeros is mostly a red herring.

That's just how I feel.

[Villemo]

Kudos to Arya for pretty much saving his drunk ass during that fight.

:agree: but imho Polliver was more dangerous than the Tickler, so of course she helped him and kudos to her :D , but I think even drunk Sandor be able to win with the Tickler.

What is interesting that Arya stayed to fight. It was her best chance up until that point to flee, but instead she stayed to fight with him.

yes, but they both, Polliver and the Tickler were on her 'list'. She only 'catch' the occasion... ;)

[littlespider]

Alright about plagues. You know, I like reading about plagues. For example I liked this book. But I'll also tell you, I don't want to read about plagues in this series. There's enough shit hitting the fan already, in my opinion, and then you're going to have to add in the Others soon enough. I'm hoping the plague is kept in Essos and the greyscale in Westeros is mostly a red herring.

That's just how I feel.

Will have to check out that book. You should read The Doomsday Book, by Connie Willis, if you like reading about plagues.

And you thought Martin was gritty and killed everybody.... muahahaha!

But, hmm, as for plague. I've been thinking about the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Has Westeros seen famine yet? It doesn't strike me that they have. Maybe this is dead end speculation then, but it seems set for pestilence, and war has ravaged the land.

Liked the detail in Essos that Pestilence came on the Pale Mare (pestilence rides on a pale horse or white horse in Apocalypse/Revelation).

(okay, okay, and after this I will get back to talking about Sandor -- I promise!)

[Candor]

Will have to check out that book. You should read The Doomsday Book, by Connie Willis, if you like reading about plagues.

And you thought Martin was gritty and killed everybody.... muahahaha!

But, hmm, as for plague. I've been thinking about the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Has Westeros seen famine yet? It doesn't strike me that they have. Maybe this is dead end speculation then, but it seems set for pestilence, and war has ravaged the land.

Liked the detail in Essos that Pestilence came on the Pale Mare (pestilence rides on a pale horse or white horse in Apocalypse/Revelation).

(okay, okay, and after this I will get back to talking about Sandor -- I promise!)

What about the Riverlands famine? I would argue if you're looking, there's a prime candidate for that horseman.

[littlespider]

What about the Riverlands famine? I would argue if you're looking, there's a prime candidate for that horseman.

Yes. And Death comes from the North, with the Others.

Truly, it will be an apocalyptic showdown. I can't wait. :devil:

But seriously we all know Davos will save everyone as Azor Ahai so it'll be aight. Lady Candace you proposed Davos as an AA candidate originally, right? Cause I found this utterly convincing. But it made me very sad. :frown5:

[Candor]

Yes. And Death comes from the North, with the Others.

Truly, it will be an apocalyptic showdown. I can't wait. :devil:

But seriously we all know Davos will save everyone as Azor Ahai so it'll be aight. Lady Candace you proposed Davos as an AA candidate originally, right? Cause I found this utterly convincing. But it made me very sad. :frown5:

Yes, it was my theory. I am not even being facetious, or IT IS KNOWN!!!111. I legitimately think it's Davos. I think there is plenty of evidence, and if it doesn't turn out that way, I will still believe he was a big candidate.

Alas, if it' is... /cryingforever

[brashcandy]

GRRM likes his characters to be shades of grey. I don't think Sansa will escape from this. However she maybe a little less grey than others.

We already have elements in the story that fit together quite well with the idea of her having a short lived discreet affair with someone she wanted to be with.

1. She grew up in a family where her father's bastard son was tread like one of them. Despite the way she regarded him initially, in later chapters, she thinks about how good it would be to see him.

2. Apart from Jonquil and Florien, her other favourite tale is about Nearys and the Demonknight. As she grows older the tale may take on new significance in regards to the relationship between the two main characters in the tale.

3. Littlefinger tells her that he took her mother's maidenhead and that she was his Queen of Love and Beauty once. Her reaction seems to be that she thinks "So what?"

4. She is now in the company of Mya: Who may not have married her first true love Knight, but at least got to sleep with him. Also Lothor Brune wants to marry Mya, so it shows that not being a maid in someways does not effect the marriage prospects.

5. She is now in the company of Randa, who is quite willing to talk about love affairs and does not seem to act as if it is a big deal.

6. We have her dream about her sons and sometimes a daughter who looks like Arya. This could just be a dream, but I can see how it could be foreshadowing. If she married either Aegon (or gods forbid stays with Tyrion) then the children are very unlikely to resemble Arya.

Rapsie these are great observations! I never thought about how they all add up until you outlined them so clearly :) Might I just add a number 7 to the list:

7. The disillusionment over Loras Tyrell. She realises that him giving her the rose at the tourney meant everything to her and nothing to him. An unpleasant realisation, but one that every girl practically goes through at some point. We're seeing her move from innocence to experience, and one of the lessons of growing up is that sometimes you're gonna like someone more than they like you. I think she's already realised that Sandor's "feelings" are much more intensive and powerful than anything Loras could ever feel for her, along with their relationship being more meaningful. And she's the one who makes something more of it than it actually was (the unkiss).

[clover]

Braschcandy...I love this post.

[brashcandy]

Braschcandy...I love this post.

Why, thank you clover :kiss:

Just to underscore the point I was trying to make and how it fits into what Rapsie was saying, basically her realisation that her Loras crush was fleeting and one sided, should make her much more appreciative of the real thing, especially in a war torn environment like Westeros, where you don't know if you'll live to see the morrow. Carpe diem!