Sandor Clegane v. 14

[brashcandy]

I think it is his ackward and painfully disturbing way of telling her that all he wants is her.

It's not what I would call one of their hallmark scenes to be honest :) Just Sandor being his lovely inappropriate self.

[ElizaMartell]

Lovely inappropiate....riiiiight. :stillsick:

First post and all, but I will agree Sandor is a pretty interesting character. Probably the best out of a miserable bunch.

[clover]

He has deranged and depraved mini-versions of the Romeo and Juliet balcony scene. LOL!

He just has to get drunk on his nights off first before he follows her around and blusters at her.

Too funny!

[Bugger that]

Speaking of, are there any quotes on So spoke Martin regarding those infamous "Or a woman" or the "I meant to take her" speech?

[Candor]

Regarding the Littlefinger and Lysa... I always saw it as an Anne Boleyn / Henry VIII thing. I won't sleep with you until you put a ring on this finger. Or in Littlefinger's case "until your husband is out of my our way." The emphasis being very important.

[brashcandy]

Speaking of, are there any quotes on So spoke Martin regarding those infamous "Or a woman" or the "I meant to take her" speech?

Not to my knowledge, but I do remember Martin commenting on another ambiguous line by one of the characters and noting that it was written to be deliberately ambiguous, and that readers would have to make up their minds on it for themselves. So I think he clearly knows what he's doing here with Sandor. Not to mention never letting us know exactly how Sansa feels when she has those dreams or thinks of him kissing her.

[Bugger that]

Not to my knowledge, but I do remember Martin commenting on another ambiguous line by one of the characters and noting that it was written to be deliberately ambiguous, and that readers would have to make up their minds on it for themselves. So I think he clearly knows what he's doing here with Sandor. Not to mention never letting us know exactly how Sansa feels when she has those dreams or thinks of him kissing her.

Oh, I'm sure he does.... bastard ;)

[Candor]

Welcome, clover and ElizaMartell ! :laugh:

Oh, I'm sure he does.... bastard ;)

I like to try to be positive in that this means some good plots coming in future. Or that he left it ambiguous to give us something to do, in the MANY years between books. :rolleyes:

Edited; For spelling :3

[Bugger that]

Or that he left it ambiguous to give us something to do, in the MANY years between books. :rolleyes:

Good point! :D

[Candor]

Good point! :D

I mean why not? :devil:

[Ednawolf]

I'm not even sure Sansa will have a system to fuck, er, say "fuck off" to. I think the system is going to be nuked, or at least irrelevant for a long, long time, when Dany*, the Others, and the Grey Plague/Stonescale come to town. (*I'm in the minority maybe of liking Dany and wanting her to come "save" everybody though of course not in a simplistic manner.)

Do you think that Greyscale will become an epidemic?

[brashcandy]

Do you think that Greyscale will become an epidemic?

I do for sure. With the warnings about Shireen from Val and Jon Con hiding his infection, it's going to get really bad I expect.

[Ednawolf]

That is what I would really like to read about, someone else's musings about their interactions.

I'd like to see their interactions from Jaime's viewpoint. Maybe if the Vale Dream Team ever comes to fruition.

[Ednawolf]

Thanks.

And I am enjoying trying to figure out all of that ambiguity. Their scenes make me as frustrated as he undoubtedly is. LOL!

I get a big kick out of him never calling her Sansa, my lady, or anything else, besides...girl, child, and little bird.

Little bird just cracks me up. I think it is hysterically funny, what with knowing what we, the readers, know about him, that he has come up with the most vomit-inducing, corny, and endearingly sweet nickname.

And it is even more funny that he refers to every thing she does and even herself as "pretty." To her face and from what I heard, he says it in SOS too.

Because there are a ton of other words I would think he would've use instead.

His interactions with her are riotously funny, or would be, if he wasn't desperately trying so hard with her that his anger and feeble attempts are touching.

Er, in a weird, uh, twisted way but that's him...

It seems like he calls her "girl" or "child" when he's frustrated with her or educating her on how life is not a song... and calls her "little bird" when he's endeared towards her.

[Starbird]

I always got the impression that Joffrey wasn't "active" in this way because that wasn't his modus operandi. I believe at this stage of his life he intended to subject only certain people to his dark affections - namely whoever ended up as his wife........and Sansa, of course, since he's obsessed with bringing her pain. He's singled out these special people and I would think as a cruel teen as he is, it's a more keener sadistic pleasure to limit his attention onto certain pets. (I know, :stillsick: but I'm just trying to explain my thought). He doesn't get the same reaction from any kitchen girl, and his wife/Sansa he thinks are only his to toy with. If that makes sense?

Dark affections :shiver!: Interesting point, though, about Joffrey not seeking out girls. (Which I guess would be kinda hard when you've got Sandor trailing around after you.) It does fit in with his all-brag/no-back-up persona. I think he probably limited his attention to what was placed right in front of him. Sansa was supposed to (and, for awhile, did) fall at his feet and worship him. So long as she played the part, he was fairly nice to her. Part of it was probably ego, too. The heir to the throne wouldn't waste time on unworthy females.

[clover]

Hell, yeah, I agree with this. His word choices seem to hint at his frame of mind at any given minute. And when the empty rape threats come out it is his terrible and artless way of saying he is attracted to her. I am not saying that's acceptable or appropriate but this is his character. But there is no way I think that the guy who has a pattern of making contact with her "gently," "not ungently," or "delicately," that barks out gruffly an offer to keep her safe and saying that nobody would hurt her again or he'd kill for her, would rape her. Total contradiction. The threats come out, the kife comes out, but his thoughts are not connected to this.

Er, I think.

[Starbird]

Do you think that Greyscale will become an epidemic?

I sure hope so. I'd like to see the number of players drastically reduced. Except for my favorites. They need to not contract it. Sandor has suffered enough and Sansa has so far managed to avoid any of the physical scarring/maiming/dismemberment that's befallen so many of the others. I'm hoping GRRM is preserving her physical beauty because it reflects her inner beauty. If she suddenly starts racking up injuries, I'm going to take it as a sign.

[Ednawolf]

I do for sure. With the warnings about Shireen from Val and Jon Con hiding his infection, it's going to get really bad I expect.

The people of westeros are going to be in for a shit storm.... winter, food shortage, war, greyscale, dragons, the others...

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Yeah, not to mention the influence of Randa and Mya, along with her own life as Alayne Stone right now. The story in general seems to be moving to a "get love where you can find it, fuck tradition" idea of romance/marriage, and I think Sansa will decide that if she can't escape the necessities of her claim to Winterfell, she'll at least decide the man she wants to bestow her true affection on.

I disagree. Sansa kept her dignity and values all throughout her imprisonment in KL. I don't see her losing them to Littlefinger's machinations.

I can see Sansa saying fuck the system and marrying someone well below her status, but not trashing her own values.

Remember, all throughout KL, she viewed courtsey and customs as her armor. If she threw those away, she'd have nothing.

I can't remember Sansa's actual reaction to this information. Do you think she definitely believes him? She knows he is a liar and manipulator, so I'm not convinced she thinks he's telling the truth about this. But then again, she's known for her inscrutable reactions to things, so who knows.

I took it as she didn't believe him. Maybe she didn't reject the idea, but she didn't necessarily believe him either.

I still think she's going to be the "Lord Tywin with teats" persona that Cersei fancied herself

At that point, I'd finally start hating her (I'm more or less neutral now).

Except she'd never truly be Tywin. She's actually won fairly impressive victories in battle.

That's the thing... I think the only way she can find that "peace, safety, and get away from LF" is precisely by saying fuck you to the system. I'm not a big fan of the Tullys, or their "Family, duty, honour" schtick, but she would be honoring that by saving her cousin Sweetrobin. Marriage alliances are the bread and butter of Westerosi politics, and Sansa is primed to do some serious damage to LF's plans for her and Harry the heir. To bring this all back to Sandor ;), so far LF has no idea about her connection to the Hound, and it would make perfect dramatic sense for the most unlikeliest man - in LF's estimation - to be the one that influences Sansa's decision with regards to her future.

She would not have to give up family, duty, and honor to save Sweetrobin (actually saving him would be fulfillment of the first part) or to fuck over Littlefinger's plans.

I do for sure. With the warnings about Shireen from Val and Jon Con hiding his infection, it's going to get really bad I expect.

Jon, yes.

Shireen, no. Many characters have talked/thought about her greyscale. None have ever thought she might be infectious. Nor have they suggested she is the first child survivor. Val believes anyone with greyscale should be killed. I'm going to say the people who try to treat and cure greyscale know more about its survivors than those who simply kill all infected.

Dark affections :shiver!: Interesting point, though, about Joffrey not seeking out girls. (Which I guess would be kinda hard when you've got Sandor trailing around after you.) It does fit in with his all-brag/no-back-up persona. I think he probably limited his attention to what was placed right in front of him. Sansa was supposed to (and, for awhile, did) fall at his feet and worship him. So long as she played the part, he was fairly nice to her. Part of it was probably ego, too. The heir to the throne wouldn't waste time on unworthy females.

It's less about sex than power. As a prince, it's not easy find a completely powerless female. Especially when your father has a problem with you cutting kittens out of its mother. But a traitor's daughter after father is dead? Now that's someone you can have complete control over.

[Starbird]

Hell, yeah, I agree with this. His word choices seem to hint at his frame of mind at any given minute. And when the empty rape threats come out it is his terrible and artless way of saying he is attracted to her. I am not saying that's acceptable or appropriate but this is his character. But there is no way I think that the guy who has a pattern of making contact with her "gently," "not ungently," or "delicately," that barks out gruffly an offer to keep her safe and saying that nobody would hurt her again or he'd kill for her, would rape her. Total contradiction. The threats come out, the kife comes out, but his thoughts are not connected to this.

Er, I think.

Agreed. While they're both in KL, we have no idea that Sandor's all bark and no bite. That doesn't truly become obvious until his roadtrip with Arya. Then, working backwards, we (or, I) can assume that he never would've harmed Sansa because, if he wasn't going to follow through on his threats to Arya, who wanted to bash in his skull with a rock, then why on earth would he harm Sansa, who was perfectly nice to him at all times? So the cat's out of the bag now. I don't think we'll see him threatening Sansa in the future. The tension in it for the reader is now gone.