Sandor Clegane V.15

[1234567]

I think they've upped Sansa to 13 in AGOT the TV series, (Cersei asks her age in the first episode). In fact I think all the kids are better ages, and much better than the ages in the books, which I actually think are a mistake because no one reacts to those kids as if they are the ages they are.

[littlespider]

If he'd kept the 5 year gap Sansa would be 18, close to 19 by the time it was over.

There are so many problems related to the canceling of that 5 year gap. :bang:

[Ednawolf]

I wonder if the cancellation of the 5-year gap also meant that GRRM revised earlier plans / resolutions for the characters? What if his original intent was to play out SanSan, but now, because the gap didn't work out, he won't? Or do you think he'll stick with his original character resolutions, whatever those may be?

[Candor]

It's hard for me to think that George never realized he should have started out the kids as older. He seems like he had a vision of what he was going to write, so knowing where he was going to take them in the context of the story, shouldn't that have been a clue? Or did things happen more naturally than I am supposing?

[Candor]

I wonder if the cancellation of the 5-year gap also meant that GRRM revised earlier plans / resolutions for the characters? What if his original intent was to play out SanSan, but now, because the gap didn't work out, he won't? Or do you think he'll stick with his original character resolutions, whatever those may be?

I suspect if he originally planned to, he still will. I also believe he did plan on it, in some way. Maybe not a glorious settle down happy, but ~something.

It seems too woven in to take out. Sandor isn't just a named character, he's had a lot of impact on several POV and non POV's. (Sansa, Arya, Turd, and he's had some interaction with the BWB, the Elder Brother, Tyrion, and could very well meet and impact other characters in future)

[Yvonesan]

Would you feel differently, or would the character read differently if when he teared/cried during the bedroom scene, he hadn't been very drunk but totally sober?

I am still weighing in on this one myself.

And in general, how much does that alcohol affect him around her?

Imagine he sobered up the next day after leaving and regretted it?

First of all, I believe in the saying that the truth comes out when you're drunk so I believe that Sandor's crying represented his genuine distress as well as his ability to just be himself with Sansa...he didn't have to put on a front with her, although the drinking probably helped since he really doesn't open up to anyone much. I think there was no chance he'd have been sober that night considering drink is his way of dealing with things but if he had been sober, I'm not sure he'd have let his vulnerable side show so easily. Maybe, since it was Sansa and he has opened up to her more than any other character but I doubt he'd have been inclined to get that physically close to her if he was sober in the same circumstances and I believe it was his nearness to her personal space that partially brought the emotional barriers down in the first place.

I imagine that Sandor would think his crying was a stupid weakness so if he thought about it the next day, regretting it would be par for the course.

[1234567]

I suspect if he originally planned to, he still will. I also believe he did plan on it, in some way. Maybe not a glorious settle down happy, but ~something.

It seems too woven in to take out. Sandor isn't just a named character, he's had a lot of impact on several POV and non POV's. (Sansa, Arya, Turd, and he's had some interaction with the BWB, the Elder Brother, Tyrion, and could very well meet and impact other characters in future)

I suspect that's another reason that the show have aged the characters up and that in AFFC Alyane is 14 coming up for 15, unlike Sansa who is 13 coming up for 14. I don't know why he couldn't have stretched the events of AFFC and ADWD out to 2 years or a year and a half. It would still have been believable and the characters' development and ages would have been better.

I was reading somewhere (could be the Sansa thread) that the 5 year gap was meant to help age the characters up, so Sansa descending from the Eyrie was meant to be after 5 years. 5 years, all her late teenage ones, alone in the Eyrie, with only a made up Sandor kiss to think about.

The messed up timeline is, I think, why some aspects of the story like the character ages really seem icky or weird, Bran and Meera in ADWD for example. He is acting like a boy of 13 towards her, not 8. The story will pan out the same, but the kids will be younger.

[Candor]

I suspect that's another reason that the show have aged the characters up and that in AFFC Alyane is 14 coming up for 15, unlike Sansa who is 13 coming up for 14. I don't know why he couldn't have stretched the events of AFFC and ADWD out to 2 years or a year and a half. It would still have been believable and the characters' development and ages would have been better.

I was reading somewhere (could be the Sansa thread) that the 5 year gap was meant to help age the characters up, so Sansa descending from the Eyrie was meant to be after 5 years. 5 years, all her late teenage ones, alone in the Eyrie, with only a made up Sandor kiss to think about.

The messed up timeline is, I think, why some aspects of the story like the character ages really seem icky or weird, Bran and Meera in ADWD for example. He is acting like a boy of 13 towards her, not 8. The story will pan out the same, but the kids will be younger.

I do have to say I've never known a boy of eight to be like that toward a girl :lol: And I've known a lot of boys that age, little cousins, friends, and all.

And may I also say the thought of Sansa spending five years isolated in the Eyrie with Petyr absolutely terrifies me? She could learn from Littlefinger, but spending that time with Petyr. Can we say.... Sansa needs a rape whistle?

[Candor]

First of all, I believe in the saying that the truth comes out when you're drunk so I believe that Sandor's crying represented his genuine distress as well as his ability to just be himself with Sansa...he didn't have to put on a front with her, although the drinking probably helped since he really doesn't open up to anyone much. I think there was no chance he'd have been sober that night considering drink is his way of dealing with things but if he had been sober, I'm not sure he'd have let his vulnerable side show so easily. Maybe, since it was Sansa and he has opened up to her more than any other character but I doubt he'd have been inclined to get that physically close to her if he was sober in the same circumstances and I believe it was his nearness to her personal space that partially brought the emotional barriers down in the first place.

I imagine that Sandor would think his crying was a stupid weakness so if he thought about it the next day, regretting it would be par for the course.

I always got the impression that drunk or not, events that night left Sandor with little control over what he felt or expressed. But being drunk is in character, and it lended that ambiguousness the scene that would have been debatable if a sober Sandor showed up in Sansa's bedroom and cried in her arms. I mean in the latter situation, you can hardly read it like you do when a drunk, stumbling Sanodr comes in and pushes Sansa on a bed...

[littlespider]

It's hard for me to think that George never realized he should have started out the kids as older. He seems like he had a vision of what he was going to write, so knowing where he was going to take them in the context of the story, shouldn't that have been a clue? Or did things happen more naturally than I am supposing?

He's said that if he knew he would cancel the 5 year gap he'd have made the children older to begin with.

I wonder if the cancellation of the 5-year gap also meant that GRRM revised earlier plans / resolutions for the characters? What if his original intent was to play out SanSan, but now, because the gap didn't work out, he won't? Or do you think he'll stick with his original character resolutions, whatever those may be?

Well, this is Martin. Among other lovely things, we've seen lactation fetishes, anal, a dwarf performing cunnilingus, lesbian hatefuck, and a 13 year old getting fingerbanged -- and liking it -- by a significantly older barbarian dude. He doesn't shy away from uncomfortable sex. So, if they were originally going to get dirty, I suspect they're still going to.

I can't say I'm happy about the prospect, I guess. Though it really depends on how he pulls it off. A 19 year old -- worldly wise, alert and aware, assertive, perhaps a little more experienced with the boys, and an early 30s guy who's been on the wagon and meditating for 5 years over his sins and seriously self-flagellating about assaulting her and threatening her life. Maybe I could get on that. Maybe. Specially the self-flagellation, if it's shirtless. Fucking hot.

But a 15 year old, little to no experience of the world that doesn't involve trauma, or of men that doesn't involve trauma and creepers, still wracked by horrific grief, and a late 20s guy who's only been off the booze and on the flagellation for a year or so? Unless Sansa has an ass-kicking year, the power dynamic just really makes me uncomfortable. Plus, Pod will not have the chance to grow up and get all muscled and hot.

So it really depends.

But really George, is shirtless self-flagellation and tortured mangst really too much to ask? Like, you gotta give us something to make up for the brain-laceration of the fat pink mast.

[Candor]

He's said that if he knew he would cancel the 5 year gap he'd have made the children older to begin with.

Well, this is Martin. Among other lovely things, we've seen lactation fetishes, anal, a dwarf performing cunnilingus, lesbian hatefuck, and a 13 year old getting fingerbanged -- and liking it -- by a significantly older barbarian dude. He doesn't shy away from uncomfortable sex. So, if they were originally going to get dirty, I suspect they're still going to.

I can't say I'm happy about the prospect, I guess. Though it really depends on how he pulls it off. A 19 year old -- worldly wise, alert and aware, assertive, perhaps a little more experienced with the boys, and an early 30s guy who's been on the wagon and meditating for 5 years over his sins and seriously self-flagellating about assaulting her and threatening her life. Maybe I could get on that. Maybe. Specially the self-flagellation, if it's shirtless. Fucking hot.

But a 15 year old, little to no experience of the world that doesn't involve trauma, or of men that doesn't involve trauma and creepers, still wracked by horrific grief, and a late 20s guy who's only been off the booze and on the flagellation for a year or so? Unless Sansa has an ass-kicking year, the power dynamic just really makes me uncomfortable. Plus, Pod will not have the chance to grow up and get all muscled and hot.

So it really depends.

But really George, is shirtless self-flagellation and tortured mangst really too much to ask? Like, you gotta give us something to make up for the brain-laceration of the fat pink mast.

Why did you bring that terrifying thing again? :ack:

MUST NOT THINK.

ETA: and as horrible as it is, maybe his intention was this all along.. because he thinks it suits their not exactly healthy dynamic.

[Caro99]

i think that san/san will be explored more in the 2nd season because i read in george's live journal thing and in the post where he says he just finished writing the BBW scene someone said he hoped he'd included the bedroom scene and george replied that he had so in order for viwers who haven't read the book to understand that they'll have to give them a lot of scenes together. and i think that since sophie is too young instead of having sandor putting the dagger to sansa's neck in bed they'll probably chage it to him pushing her against a wall or something and threatening her... but personally once the actress is old enough i don't care that much about the age diffrence.

i think no one has asked this... ok so it is clear the hound hated tyrion and was ready to die when he learned he'd married his little bird. but if he hadn't been drunk or injured and had had days to think about it, do you girl think hewould have agreed that it was better for sansa to marry tyrion instead of continue to be promised to joffrey, & eventually marry him??

[littlespider]

ETA: and as horrible as it is, maybe his intention was this all along.. because he thinks it suits their not exactly healthy dynamic.

I think this is a good point. I would say that it's possible -- if it was in the original plan for them to get together -- that with the 5 year gap in place it still would have been fairly unhealthy, but less so because Sansa would have had time to develop psychologically and, well, she'd just be older. So the whole notion of her as a child, or in that weird in-between phase (between first menstruation and 16), and the automatic squick factor that goes along with it, would not be present. We'd still have the enormously problematic issue of a woman hooking up with her former assailant. That's pretty unhealthy, though depending on how Martin handles it, I could react like A. fuck you asshole for perpetuating a version of one of the most vicious misogynist fantasies present in western culture or B. Huh, this is pretty messed up and weird, and kind of uncomfortable, but I can roll with it.

In order for B., a couple of things have to happen. She must remember things properly. And he's got to make it right. Not just apologize, but actually make it up to her. Like, do something important for her.

Let me amend my flagellation comment above. It must be heavily muscled, shirtless, self-flagellating mangst. :thumbsup:

i think no one has asked this... ok so it is clear the hound hated tyrion and was ready to die when he learned he'd married his little bird. but if he hadn't been drunk or injured and had had days to think about it, do you girl think hewould have agreed that it was better for sansa to marry tyrion instead of continue to be promised to joffrey, & eventually marry him??

Sandor completely hates Tyrion. We don't have any definite information as to why (besides the fact that Tyrion showed him up at the battle, but really, that's just a dick-swinging contest he lost), though I suspect he may have heard of the Tysha incident. If he heard of that, no, there's no way he'd agree that it was better for Sansa to marry Tyrion. If he hears from Sansa that Tyrion was "kind" (that's how she puts it, at least) to her and didn't force a consummation, my guess is that he'll still hate Tyrion but he may not want to "dip him in wildfire and let him burn." It's hard to say.

[Candor]

i think that san/san will be explored more in the 2nd season because i read in george's live journal thing and in the post where he says he just finished writing the BBW scene someone said he hoped he'd included the bedroom scene and george replied that he had so in order for viwers who haven't read the book to understand that they'll have to give them a lot of scenes together. and i think that since sophie is too young instead of having sandor putting the dagger to sansa's neck in bed they'll probably chage it to him pushing her against a wall or something and threatening her... but personally once the actress is old enough i don't care that much about the age diffrence.

i think no one has asked this... ok so it is clear the hound hated tyrion and was ready to die when he learned he'd married his little bird. but if he hadn't been drunk or injured and had had days to think about it, do you girl think hewould have agreed that it was better for sansa to marry tyrion instead of continue to be promised to joffrey, & eventually marry him??

Not necessarily. In comparison, maybe. But he wouldn/t have regarded it as a positive fate. I also think Sandor has his reasons for disliking Tyrion, and these might include knowing of Tyrion's first marriage... and then there's Sandor himself. Though he'd never admit it, or even admit to having feelings for her, he might, deep down, be like Jorah, instinctively feeling there's no one better for the girl than him.

Difference between Jorah and Sandor is though, Sandor is more able to let Sansa be herself, and would let her choose something/someone else. Jorah has a harder time on this point. Sandor also admits he's not the sort of person a nice girl should be hanging around. I haven't seen Jorah say something of that ilk. Jorah jumped Dany for a kiss. The closest Sandor has gone is leaning in, but gave up on the idea. I also think Sandor and Sansa have had better conversation as equals than Jorah and Dany have - the latter pair has the constriction of knight and queen going for them, and Jorah likes to play advisor, and may not give the same weight to what Dany says. He seems to pedestal her.

ETA: and just so no one gets me wrong, I like Jorah!!

[Lemon Cake]

and a 13 year old getting fingerbanged -- and liking it -- by a significantly older barbarian dude.

That's exactly what I was thinking. If he was willing to write that Dany/Drogo scene ( :stillsick: ), I see no reason why he'd shy away from writing a SanSan sex scene if it was what he had originally planned, canceled 5-year gap or no.

And nothing will ever be able to make up for the fat pink mast. Ever.

[Candor]

I think this is a good point. I would say that it's possible -- if it was in the original plan for them to get together -- that with the 5 year gap in place it still would have been fairly unhealthy, but less so because Sansa would have had time to develop psychologically and, well, she'd just be older. So the whole notion of her as a child, or in that weird in-between phase (between first menstruation and 16), and the automatic squick factor that goes along with it, would not be present. We'd still have the enormously problematic issue of a woman hooking up with her former assailant. That's pretty unhealthy, though depending on how Martin handles it, I could react like A. fuck you asshole for perpetuating a version of one of the most vicious misogynist fantasies present in western culture or B. Huh, this is pretty messed up and weird, and kind of uncomfortable, but I can roll with it.

In order for B., a couple of things have to happen. She must remember things properly. And he's got to make it right. Not just apologize, but actually make it up to her. Like, do something important for her.

Let me amend my flagellation comment above. It must be heavily muscled, shirtless, self-flagellating mangst. :thumbsup:

I think Martin is just the sort of writer to make us feel Option B about it. I mean, he's done some amazing turnarounds in this story of certain characters. :thumbsup:

Heavily muscled and shirtless oh my, step aside Sansa, I am here. Sandor........ :drool:

[Candor]

That's exactly what I was thinking. If he was willing to write that Dany/Drogo scene ( :stillsick: ), I see no reason why he'd shy away from writing a SanSan sex scene if it was what he had originally planned, canceled 5-year gap or no.

And nothing will ever be able to make up for the fat pink mast. Ever.

And while the reality of what the D/D scene was was :ack:, when I read it, I wasn't as bothered. I was more bothered by the later chapter of Daenerys' that ended something like:

"You are with child, Khaleesi."

Dany: I know.

It was her fourteenth nameday.

:ack: :ack: :ack:

Sadly I think you are right. The FPM is just too squicky to ever be rectified. All we can hope is the memory may someday fade...

[Lemon Cake]

In order for B., a couple of things have to happen. She must remember things properly. And he's got to make it right. Not just apologize, but actually make it up to her. Like, do something important for her.

I actually do think that both of those things are going to happen. Or at least I hope they do, because if they don't and Sandor and Sansa still hook up, I will be throwing my book across the room.

I know that statement contributes nothing to the conversation. I'm... just saying.

[littlespider]

And while the reality of what the D/D scene was was :ack:, when I read it, I wasn't as bothered.

Ma Spider's overview of Dany/Drogo wedding night scene: "That was hot! Totally enough to make you wet!" Spider: "Fuck, Ma, she's fucking thirteen!" Ma: "Oh, yeah, I guess that's kind of bad."

(My Ma is unique: though btw she's against child sexual abuse and all that. She just kind of forgets the whole inappropriate age thing.)

Oh and she's also pretty sure Sansa and the Hound will get married and live happily ever after.

I actually do think that both of those things are going to happen. Or at least I hope they do, because if they don't and Sandor and Sansa still hook up, I will be throwing my book across the room.

Me too. See this is why I hate it when SanSan shippers get trolled by people that say y'all (okay, sometimes "we" but I refuse to admit it!) condone abusive relationships or whatnot. Like 99% of sensible SanSaners subscribe to just what you said, Lemoncake. Like, I don't think any of us don't see how messed up this is.

[Yvonesan]

I always got the impression that drunk or not, events that night left Sandor with little control over what he felt or expressed. But being drunk is in character, and it lended that ambiguousness the scene that would have been debatable if a sober Sandor showed up in Sansa's bedroom and cried in her arms. I mean in the latter situation, you can hardly read it like you do when a drunk, stumbling Sanodr comes in and pushes Sansa on a bed...

There is that too. Definitely wouldn't seem as acceptable, if that's the right word. You could be right about the effect of the night's events on Sandor but I find it difficult to even imagine him sober at that point so I'm not the best at considering anything else.

Agree with you about Sandor's view of Tyrion versus Joff as a husband for Sansa. Either guy is unacceptable in that role. And on top of thinking of Sansa's welfare in this, there'd probably be the underlying feeling of wanting her only for himself, knowing that he could keep her from harm. Even considering his own flaws.