Sandor Clegane V.15

[clover]

That was a cute line as well as Sandor's response.

I remember reading it and just being grateful that Joff the Jackass didn't slap her.

[1234567]

Sooo missed most of the thread yesterday, but quickly going back to this:

No worries, clover. Problematic nature of the ship aside, THIS is why I get so confused when people are amazed that SanSan exists as a ship. Of all the ships out there, it is one of the ones most firmly rooted in canon! It may be weird and creepy and disturbing BUT WE DID NOT MAKE IT UP.

I think the main reason for it is that certain people skim read Sansa chapters because they don't like her character: therefore they also don't get the Hound appreciation because he is mostly seen in her chapters.

In terms of Sandor being nice to people: I think he does this more than is recognised, but in a way where the value of what he is saying is never appreciated: such as the two times he tells Tyrion to basically watch what he says to the Turd. Tyrion (so agree with your point about really disliking him on a re-read Lady Candace) never really gets the message though: Sandor is warning him that one day the Turd will be King......and not a nice one.

[Candor]

Sooo missed most of the thread yesterday, but quickly going back to this:

I think the main reason for it is that certain people skim read Sansa chapters because they don't like her character: therefore they also don't get the Hound appreciation because he is mostly seen in her chapters.

In terms of Sandor being nice to people: I think he does this more than is recognised, but in a way where the value of what he is saying is never appreciated: such as the two times he tells Tyrion to basically watch what he says to the Turd. Tyrion (so agree with your point about really disliking him on a re-read Lady Candace) never really gets the message though: Sandor is warning him that one day the Turd will be King......and not a nice one.

Ugh, probably. Encounted some of these lurvely people today. One said Sansa was a waste of paper, yet another said they hope the bittersweet ending of the series is Sansa dies. :stillsick:

Of course, these would probably be the same people who pay attention Arya chapters, and without the subtext found in the Sansa parts, take scenes like the deathbed confession to their worst possible interpretation.

Every time I read scene with him in it, the more I come to appreciate that Sandor is quite observant of a fellow, and not without a certain wit.

Tyrion. I on'y still like some of his ealiest scenes in AGoT, and that's mostly thanks to Peter Dinklage's acting in the show. (I love him, so he makes it better to watch. :) )

[1234567]

Ugh, probably. Encounted some of these lurvely people today. One said Sansa was a waste of paper, yet another said they hope the bittersweet ending of the series is Sansa dies. :stillsick:

Of course, these would probably be the same people who pay attention Arya chapters, and without the subtext found in the Sansa parts, take scenes like the deathbed confession to their worst possible interpretation.

:stillsick: and precisely.

Every time I read scene with him in it, the more I come to appreciate that Sandor is quite observant of a fellow, and not without a certain wit.

He has had to be observant I suppose as a child: with a brother like Gregor, you probably always had to watch what you said and either get out of his way, or pander to his moods. I think he sees the same cruelty in the Turd. As he says to Sansa, give him what he wants.

Tyrion. I on'y still like some of his ealiest scenes in AGoT, and that's mostly thanks to Peter Dinklage's acting in the show. (I love him, so he makes it better to watch. :) )

Peter Dinklage is amazing and actually makes the character seem a lot nicer, although there are still scenes that make me think ugh! The one where he mocks Theon for example. Also as a side note, Ghost takes a dislike to him: foreshadowing?

Funnily enough I was reading the comic book of AGOT the other day and in the recent issue Tyrion comes across as quite mean and bitter in his depiction.

[Candor]

:stillsick: and precisely.

He has had to be observant I suppose as a child: with a brother like Gregor, you probably always had to watch what you said and either get out of his way, or pander to his moods. I think he sees the same cruelty in the Turd. As he says to Sansa, give him what he wants.

Peter Dinklage is amazing and actually makes the character seem a lot nicer, although there are still scenes that make me think ugh! The one where he mocks Theon for example. Also as a side note, Ghost takes a dislike to him: foreshadowing?

Funnily enough I was reading the comic book of AGOT the other day and in the recent issue Tyrion comes across as quite mean and bitter in his depiction.

I'm avoiding said topic as not to be rageful. I already gave a polite (enough) rebuttal, and they went like all Oooh We've stepped on the toes of a Sansa "appreciator" (yes, with air quotes :rolleyes: ). I just can't deal with it. Which is a shame, because you know, I was actually really interested in following that topic but fuck that now.

Oh, well even he can't make Tyrion a saint. :lol: but he does humanize him so much. I've never read the comic!

I have to wonder about that. Grey, Shaggy and/or Summer did the same... so many wolves can't be wrong, I'm thinking.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Peter Dinklage is amazing and actually makes the character seem a lot nicer, although there are still scenes that make me think ugh! The one where he mocks Theon for example. Also as a side note, Ghost takes a dislike to him: foreshadowing?

Nah. Remember. The wolves react to the children's emotions. Jon was getting angry with Tyrion, thus Ghost was to.

[Arkash]

Nah. Remember. The wolves react to the children's emotions. Jon was getting angry with Tyrion, thus Ghost was to.

I remember when Tyrion came back to Winterfell after having been to the NW. Grey Wind and Shaggydog nearly killed him.

I dont really know what to think about it... most of times, the wolves have been smelling things their masters havent, but maybe, for this time, it was just, as Lord Bronn stated, just that they shared their master's feelings. Because Ghost did enjoy Tyrion once Jon was trusting the dwarf.

[clover]

I just read Rapsie's post about Sandor having to dodge around Gregor as a child.

It really made me think even more about how much Sansa and Sandor have in common.

They both were in trapped situtaions where they were vunlerable to other people. Sandor by Gregor, Sansa by Joff, and, er, others too.

In a situation where you had to watch what you did, say, how you act, etc. And the stress and strain that goes with it.

From the previous posts, they both seem to share compassion for others. WIth Sansa that is visible more often. But with Sandor we see it with Sansa, Tommen, and in other ways too.

And they both just stink when they are around people they find attractive and this one cracks me up.

Sandor around Sansa. Need I say more.

And last night I got to the part of SOS with Sansa trying to hit on Loras and it was hilarious.

It would be emotional, but if Sansa and Sandor meet up again...ooh, the comedy potential.

Between the "you left me" "I kept your cloak" "Dude, I think you kissed me" and whatever the hell else comes into play.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I remember when Tyrion came back to Winterfell after having been to the NW. Grey Wind and Shaggydog nearly killed him.

I dont really know what to think about it... most of times, the wolves have been smelling things their masters havent, but maybe, for this time, it was just, as Lord Bronn stated, just that they shared their master's feelings. Because Ghost did enjoy Tyrion once Jon was trusting the dwarf.

Yeah, but it was similair situation of Robb and Bran not exactly being happy to see Tyrion. Well, I should be getting to the point sometime soon and will pay attention to that chapter.

[Villemo]

as i said, i'm still re-reading ASOIAF and I have a question ;)

What do you think, what scene touch (mean: hurt) Sandor the most?

- still can't bear to look, can you?

- ser [Gregor Clegane] said, that his puppy brother tucked his tail between his legs when the battle go too warm at KL. He said, he ran off whimpering

- but they say, you lost your belly for fighting at the blackwater. They say.... - I know, what they say.

- you don't deserve the gift of mercy.

- another?

a quick poll for you :D

(It's hard to choose, but I vote for the first (still can't bear to look))

[Candor]

Definitely Option 1. The final three are things that could have been hurled at him in years (brother issues, insults on him personally...) and they still haven't broken the person that is Sandor. Yet whenever it something to do with Sansa, it just gets under his skin in a way the rest doesn't.

[littlespider]

What do you think, what scene touch (mean: hurt) Sandor the most?

- still can't bear to look, can you?

- ser [Gregor Clegane] said, that his puppy brother tucked his tail between his legs when the battle go too warm at KL. He said, he ran off whimpering

- but they say, you lost your belly for fighting at the blackwater. They say.... - I know, what they say.

- you don't deserve the gift of mercy.

These quotes make me sad. And I'd argue: all of 'em were like a punch to the stomach. The second and third because they're true, and he's ashamed of it. The fourth because Arya believes it, and he probably believes it too. The first because it's a missed communication: her language "fuck I'm scared." His reading: "she thinks I'm ugly."

Let me throw this out there, for the sake of discussion. Is there a kind of narcissism in this consistent emphasis he places on his ugliness? Like, if he wasn't so self-absorbed, he'd be able to see that (IRT Villemo's first quote) this kid is afraid of him because of how he's acting and what he's saying to her, and then he'd be able to adjust accordingly? Because narcissism does't just have to do with self-aggrandizement (I am awesome! I am attractive!) but most of all with immense self-absorption.

The thing I like him is that he's not a whiner. But I do think he's characterized by a huge amount of self-pity.

Just a comment, but while we've seen that this is true (spirits of the air vs a dog with its face ripped off) I don't think it is clear that Sandor started it, despite that he makes the first rude comment in the book. In fact, based on Tyrion's tendency to mock and humiliate everyone around him to make himself feel better about himself (of which there are scads of supporting evidence that we've all read) I'd lay good money down on the idea that Tyrion started talking about Sandor's face and "cur" status before Sandor started mocking his height. Sandor's mean, but he tends to go more for the I VEEL KEEL YUUUUU kinda scary and mean, not so much the malicious mockery.

I now await being proven wrong, but it is my theory until you all attack it...

I am not sure about this; from my perspective I don't have enough evidence to say who would have started it. I suspect whoever started it was most in need of having their cock machismo propped up. And to be fair, we also see several instances of Sandor being nasty and insulting to others, including those more vulnerable than him. Overall, though, I think it's less important who would have started it, than the fact that once some smack-talk antagonism started, Sandor would jump on the hate train.

Tyrion also, in his moments where he perceives Sandor's fear of fire, seems a bit sympathetic towards it; e.g., of course he's afraid, he's tasted [fire] all too well. Like he doesn't think of it as ammo for a moment when he might need to put the Hound in his place.

My guess is that Tywin started the "dog" discussion: you feed your dog under the table, you don't seat him on the bench beside you."

IRT "spirits of the air" -- LAME. Seriously, Sandor, your smack-talk to the BwB was brilliant. Can't you come up with a better dwarf joke than that? What's important here is the class dynamic: he's a lower class (though lower class only in comparison to the Lannisters) figure who's got something to gain -- the Turd Prince's amusement and esteem -- by mocking someone who's lower on the social ladder than that TP. So in some ways, he's taking a risk by trying to negotiate this class space with mockery. Tyrion's comment "I'm in no mood for your insolence today" reasserts that class hierarchy; insolence implies presumptuous behavior -- someone who's out of line according to their station.

It's an interesting problem for Sandor.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

(1)Let me throw this out there, for the sake of discussion. Is there a kind of narcissism in this consistent emphasis he places on his ugliness? Like, if he wasn't so self-absorbed, he'd be able to see that (IRT Villemo's first quote) this kid is afraid of him because of how he's acting and what he's saying to her, and then he'd be able to adjust accordingly? Because narcissism does't just have to do with self-aggrandizement (I am awesome! I am attractive!) but most of all with immense self-absorption.

The thing I like him is that he's not a whiner. But I do think he's characterized by a huge amount of self-pity.

(2)IRT "spirits of the air" -- LAME. Seriously, Sandor, your smack-talk to the BwB was brilliant. Can't you come up with a better dwarf joke than that? What's important here is the class dynamic: he's a lower class (though lower class only in comparison to the Lannisters) figure who's got something to gain -- the Turd Prince's amusement and esteem -- by mocking someone who's lower on the social ladder than that TP. So in some ways, he's taking a risk by trying to negotiate this class space with mockery. Tyrion's comment "I'm in no mood for your insolence today" reasserts that class hierarchy; insolence implies presumptuous behavior -- someone who's out of line according to their station.

It's an interesting problem for Sandor.

1. I don't know if I would go as far as narcissism, but he definently is quick to see his face as the problem.

2. I honestly don't think the Hound's heart was particularly into it. Like you said, he was trying to entertain Joffery. Minimum effort required.

[littlespider]

I honestly don't think the Hound's heart was particularly into it. Like you said, he was trying to entertain Joffery. Minimum effort required.

Yes, this makes sense. I do think if he'd been trying, he could come up with an appropriately sassy insult.

[Villemo]

Let me throw this out there, for the sake of discussion. Is there a kind of narcissism in this consistent emphasis he places on his ugliness? Like, if he wasn't so self-absorbed, he'd be able to see that (IRT Villemo's first quote) this kid is afraid of him because of how he's acting and what he's saying to her, and then he'd be able to adjust accordingly? Because narcissism does't just have to do with self-aggrandizement (I am awesome! I am attractive!) but most of all with immense self-absorption.

narcissism? Not.

I dont remember where, but few days ago I read article about human psychic (not 'scientific', rather 'popular science') and one of arguments was, that any deformation of the face arouses in other people disgust/ revulsion/ aversion.

So, maybe it wasn't 'narcissism', but 'life experience'?

[Raksha the Demon]

Tommen :wub:, you are the best knight I ever did see. Forget what Turd says, and rock on little king

Woobishness aside, this was a very outstanding Sandor moment to me as well. He does seem to have a way with this child at least, which gives me hope. I imagine it's similar with Myrcella. And even Joffrey. Yes, truly. I think Joffrey is disturbed, but he does seem to have his own sort of affection for his scary dog, and I think there might have been times he'd said something mean/snarky in order to impress Sandor. However, this does not go as he wanted it to, I'm sure, at least recently as Sandor's personality has been evolving.

It's sad, in a way, and it's alien to feel sad for Turd, but in this instance, I have to.

It kind of makes me sad for Joffrey to realize that the most constant adult presence in his life seems to have been neither of his two fathers, or his uncle, nor his grandsire, but his bodyguard. Joffrey's attempts, if I remember right, to denigrate Sandor, by constantly referring to him as 'Hound', might be an attempt to show dominance over one of the few people in King's Landing who doesn't bow and scrape to him. I think that Joffrey is rather pleased that such a physically powerful, fierce-looking man not only guards him but has to obey him.

And yes, Sandor's observation of Tommen's courage was a lovely moment. It's also one of the very few Sandor moments where he forgets to snarl and swear.

[littlespider]

narcissism? Not.

I dont remember where, but few days ago I read article about human psychic (not 'scientific', rather 'popular science') and one of arguments was, that any deformation of the face arouses in other people disgust/ revulsion/ aversion.

So, maybe it wasn't 'narcissism', but 'life experience'?

When I say narcissism I'm not referring to a narcissistic personality disorder, but rather immense self-absorption and a lack of stellar ability to perceive situations and contexts as not in direct reaction to the self. So, kids and young adults of a certain age have narcissistic tendencies -- the chronic teenage selfishness, for example. Everything's me, me, me. This is a normal developmental stage, one that people are expected to grow out of.

I put it out there for the sake of discussion; I don't actually think Sandor has an ongoing problem with narcissism. He clearly has serious issues related to his face. Part of me actually wonders if his hatred for his brother, and general hatred of the world, is not just a reaction to having his face mutilated but also his brother's murder of little sis and his father.

But, I do think there's a kind of self-absorption with his looks that's at the heart of his freak out with Sansa. She turns away from him because she's frightened. He thinks it's about his ugliness, and he seems unable to put the fairly obvious evidence together that points to her emotional state. He thinks it's all about the fact that she doesn't want to look at him, when in fact she has looked at him directly before.*

*great line "I'm sick of you peeping at me"!

[1234567]

Because narcissism does't just have to do with self-aggrandizement (I am awesome! I am attractive!) but most of all with immense self-absorption.

Being incredibly self-conscience could be classed as a form of self-obsession. Sandor's case is interesting because he has a good basis for assuming people have issues with his face, because they have. His reactions are in response to actual everyday response to him since he was 6. His other issue is being tarred with the same brush as his brother. The name Clegane has had negative connotations since he was 12. His self-conscienceness is not as easy to overcome as other people's.

He has however, built up a persona that uses anger as a defense. Instead of having a pity party of poor me, he approaches everyone with antagonism. His all consuming anger against his brother (and the world) stops him from having the pity parties and instead seems to harden his opinion of the world. It seems that he has grown so familiar with a negative response and a negative response alone, that he cannot relate to kindly reactions or gestures from others because he has had little to no experience of them. It's as if he assumes there is always going to be a negative reaction to him and therefore creates the very response that he is going on the offensive to defend himself from. He is convinced that he is a monster, and that everyone sees him as one and so acts like one.

[littlespider]

He has however, built up a persona that uses anger as a defense. Instead of having a pity party of poor me, he approaches everyone with antagonism. His all consuming anger against his brother (and the world) stops him from having the pity parties and instead seems to harden his opinion of the world. It seems that he has grown so familiar with a negative response and a negative response alone, that he cannot relate to kindly reactions or gestures from others because he has had little to no experience of them. It's as if he assumes there is always going to be a negative reaction to him and therefore creates the very response that he is going on the offensive to defend himself from. He is convinced that he is a monster, and that everyone sees him as one and so acts like one.

Nice. The poor guy really is emotionally stunted, isn't he? The interesting thing about his construction of his monster persona: he guarantees the reaction from people that he expects he will get anyway. And if he wasn't such a jackass, it's possible that he might not get those reactions. And you're spot on that he can't handle kindness from others.

The most interesting aspect of his character, and the moments that made me really compelled, are the places where that persona starts to fall apart, and it's clear that he really does want different treatment than what he's been getting. So these spots are most clear in the Blackwater in Sansa's bedroom, and with Arya on the Trident. But I do think that on reread, when you look more closely, you see signs of this disintegrating significantly earlier.

Being incredibly self-conscience could be classed as a form of self-obsession.

Yes, I think you're right. There's a form of this that shrinks (I mean that term affectionately, my mom is one) call "hypersensitivity to rejection disorder." Usually you see it manifested as social withdrawal and horrible self esteem. Women are more often culturally conditioned to react to this with sadness (see: Brienne). Men are conditioned by their environment to react to it with -- you guess it! -- anger.

[headtrip_honey]

Although Sandor is clearly self-involved, he doesn't necessarily have pity parties in the conventional sense. Pity parties, to me, (as Jorah and Tyrion like to throw them) are about "oh poor me" and "the world is so unfair to me". Sandor, while he does hate the world, seems to hate himself almost more than anything. So he doesn't say "poor me". He just hates everything (himself included) in general.

Unfortunately I have a near blinding headache and am about to go out for Indian, so just a short commentary from me at the moment!