Sandor Clegane V.15

[brashcandy]

Ma Spider's overview of Dany/Drogo wedding night scene: "That was hot! Totally enough to make you wet!" Spider: "Fuck, Ma, she's fucking thirteen!" Ma: "Oh, yeah, I guess that's kind of bad."

(My Ma is unique: though btw she's against child sexual abuse and all that. She just kind of forgets the whole inappropriate age thing.)

Oh and she's also pretty sure Sansa and the Hound will get married and live happily ever after.

I love your mom already, Littlespider :)

Me too. See this is why I hate it when SanSan shippers get trolled by people that say y'all (okay, sometimes "we" but I refuse to admit it!) condone abusive relationships or whatnot. Like 99% of sensible SanSaners subscribe to just what you said, Lemoncake. Like, I don't think any of us don't see how messed up this is.

Yup, yup. I want them to hook up, but I don't want it to be now, and I'd even settle for a real hug, a kiss and some genuine forgiveness and real feelings expressed. I think most of the San/San fans that regularly contribute to the thread just think that these two are suited (in the fucked up world that is Westeros post War of the 5 Kings) for each other, and we want some satisfactory resolution of what George started. It does not have to be about sex - I'd be happy just knowing that they were together at the end of ADOS, and that would happen in a future that we wouldn't get to see. Liking this relationship specifically means not being blind to the real dysfunction and sensitive issues that characterise it. Whatever happens, I hope George continues to write their story with the same kind of textured subtlety and nuance as before.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Agreed. I like SanSan, but both need to grow for it to healthy (psychology, only Sansa needs to grow physically, but after Dany/Drogo, it wouldn't be as bad if no precedent existed). I like pairings that help the characters grow (even if it kinda fucked up and not exactly the best route as it is here).

[Candor]

Your mother, Littlespider = :bowdown:

My mother could never read these novels because they would just oh my gosh, :lol: let's just say the first time she even saw the word "cunt" written down, she would go :eek: and be too traumatized/indignant to continue. And thar be a lot of that word in the series. That tells you all you need to know about my mother and fiction! She sticks to the lawyer / naval warfare type novels, and the occasional lighthearted romance.

Yup, yup. I want them to hook up, but I don't want it to be now, and I'd even settle for a real hug, a kiss and some genuine forgiveness and real feelings expressed. I think most of the San/San fans that regularly contribute to the thread just think that these two are suited (in the fucked up world that is Westeros post War of the 5 Kings) for each other, and we want some satisfactory resolution of what George started. It does not have to be about sex - I'd be happy just knowing that they were together at the end of ADOS, and that would happen in a future that we wouldn't get to see. Liking this relationship specifically means not being blind to the real dysfunction and sensitive issues that characterise it. Whatever happens, I hope George continues to write their story with the same kind of textured subtlety and nuance as before.

You know what I would be totals okay with? And I'm sorry for bringing up Stalwart Shield again, my sisters, as he is one to inspire tears, but this sort of affection could be just appropriate enough. Cuddle time, but not the sexy times? And of course, a kiss. That's a big deal to Sansa bb, apparently, so it seems like it will come to pass for real.

I agree though with what you're saying here, brash. The thing that really gets me about their interactions is all that subtlety. Their back and forth has a real personality to it, and I love how both of them are just able to be themselves around one another. For those times, Sansa is not looking over her shoulder trying not to be punished or worrying about saying the wrong thing, and Sandor can actually open up to another human being. They're almost BFFS, just a very interesting variation on it... :lol: So PLEASE, George, don't forgo that dynamic! Or I will be very, very disappoint.

[Candor]

So in the past few hours I was posting during the lecture portion of my Anat & Phys class, and so was half-distracted. I was unsatisfied with my small amount of detail, and I wasn't able to make some points as clearly as I wanted, so I'm re-doing those... hope no one minds! :blushing: :blushing:

I always got the impression that drunk or not, events that night left Sandor with little control over what he felt or expressed. But being drunk is in character, and it lended that ambiguousness the scene that would have been debatable if a sober Sandor showed up in Sansa's bedroom and cried in her arms. I mean in the latter situation, you can hardly read it like you do when a drunk, stumbling Sandor comes in and pushes Sansa on a bed...

Sandor faced the fire several times that night. It had been a grievous battle even for hardened warriors like himself. Finally, fear and other conflicting emotions had brought him to a stop. He had had enough. As is typical for him, he drank heavily, becoming more intoxicated than Sans has ever seen him, she notes. We all know how this goes afterward. Bad behavior, but also a moment of excruciating emotion before these two characters parted, perhaps forever. The bad was apparent to all readers, but the good was small, you had to read it carefully, and accept it, as well. You could just as easily read this scene as rapey and deeply disturbing as reading it in the other, more hopeful way. That my sisters, is ambiguity at its finest.

If however, Sandor had been sober, there's a better chance he would have been more controlled in behavior. He might not have given off that creeptastic vibe, and probably not have done things the same way as he did under the influence. Had he just come, emotionally in turmoil ot the one person who he can share his true self with, maybe still had the song and the tears, well... that would have screamed these characters definitely have something together. GRRM does not like the simple, in most cases, and I think he wrote the scene as it should have been. It was in character, the disturbing setting was also, in a way, appropriate, and I would not actually change it, as it would take away from the tale of these characters, IMHO.

I fully desire to see the second type of meeting in future. Sober Sandor I feel is still capable of illicting such emotion from Sansa, as well as showing his own, especially after absence makes the heart grow fonder. ;)

[Candor]

I think no one has asked this... ok so it is clear the Hound hated Tyrion and was ready to die when he learned he'd married his little bird. But if he hadn't been drunk or injured and had had days to think about it, do you girls think that he would have agreed that it was better for Sansa to marry Tyrion instead of continue to be promised to Joffrey, & eventually marry him??

Not necessarily. In comparison, maybe.

But he wouldn't have regarded it as a positive fate for her to be wed to any Lannister, quite like how Sansa herself feels. He is personally invested with this girl. He has seen and been with her during the horrors she has been subjected to. Tyrion may not have beaten her, but he is still a Lannister. I think Sansa and Sandor both have justification not to trust anyone from that family. I also firmly believe that Sandor has his reasons for disliking Tyrion, and these almost certainly include knowing of Tyrion's first marriage and what happened to his wife. Tysha and Tyrion were about the same age as Sansa is when she is forced into this marriage, if you want to draw more parallels. After hearing a story like that, if you're someone who cares about Sansa, would you want to see her wed to the groom from that story? Hell to the no, you would not. Bugger that.

... And then there's Sandor himself. Though he'd never admit it, or even admit to having feelings for her, he might, deep down, be like Jorah, instinctively feeling there's no one better for the girl than him. When he chances to think of it, he knows how he would treat her. A strong warrior, he could protect her so that no one ever hurts her again. He's the only one she's honest with. The only person in KL she actually freakin' talks to, and I don't count the words Sansa might say of her courtesies and placating her captors. They just have an affinity.

But since I mentioned Jorah, let's do a quick comparison and contrast...

SIMILARITIES:

---both are warriors

---both have "saved" the girl

---both are in love with the girl

---both are lower in status to the girl

---both are unlikely suitors (age, appearance, etc)

---both have been with the girl through rough times, stuck by their side

DIFFERENCES:

---Sandor interacts with Sansa as a person. Jorah and Dany do, sometimes, but most interaction is befitting of counselor/knight and the queen.

---Dany cannot think of Jorah in the same way he thinks of her. Sansa frequently, and with detail thinks of Sandor as much as he does with her.

---Jorah stole a kiss. Though the theme is paraded about often, and Sansa misremembers, Sandor never stole any kiss.

---When they part ways, Jorah sulks and visits whores who look like Dany, but oh wait, he does capture Tyrion, trolololo because that will win Dany back quick time, right gaiz? :rolleyes:. Sandor sulks, but ultimately does things that suggest he's trying to shape up his act to try and be a better man for his bird.

---Jorah does not handle rejection well, even when Dany is (imo) kind about doing it. Sandor, acknowledges his bad qualities, even tells Sansa as much as to suggest she shouldn't hang around him or that there are better out there for her.

ETA: and just so no one gets me wrong, I like Jorah!! But he is a little reprehensible.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Sandor faced the fire several times that night. It had been a grievous battle even for hardened warriors like himself. Finally, fear and other conflicting emotions had brought him to a stop. He had had enough. As is typical for him, he drank heavily, becoming more intoxicated than Sans has ever seen him, she notes. We all know how this goes afterward. Bad behavior, but also a moment of excruciating emotion before these two characters parted, perhaps forever. The bad was apparent to all readers, but the good was small, you had to read it carefully, and accept it, as well. (1)You could just as easily read this scene as rapey and deeply disturbing as reading it in the other, more hopeful way. That (2)my sisters, is ambiguity at its finest.

(3)If however, Sandor had been sober, there's a better chance he would have been more controlled in behavior. He might not have given off that creeptastic vibe, and probably not have done things the same way as he did under the influence. Had he just come, emotionally in turmoil ot the one person who he can share his true self with, maybe still had the song and the tears, well... that would have screamed these characters definitely have something together. GRRM does not like the simple, in most cases, and I think he wrote the scene as it should have been. It was in character, the disturbing setting was also, in a way, appropriate, and I would not actually change it, as it would take away from the tale of these characters, IMHO.

(4)I fully desire to see the second type of meeting in future. Sober Sandor I feel is still capable of illicting such emotion from Sansa, as well as showing his own, especially after absence makes the heart grow fonder. ;)

1. I think it helps alot that we seen previous interactions and know enough about Sandor to know that he is pretty incapable of dealing with emotions in a healthy light (all the fire, Tyrion humilating him, Sansa as a person, and his own impotence in his ability to protect her). Actually, as far as the Hound went, this was pretty much the healthiest way we could expect him to deal with it.

2. Um...... Still been more fun than arguing about Tyrion and Shae! :laugh:

3. I think a sober Sandor would have been able to easily convince Sansa if he told her he was rescuing her and taking her to her family (of course, that is what I would expect a sober Sandor escaping with Sansa would do).

4. Agreed.

EDIT: Apparently time to turn in as my coherence is going down. Fixed it first though.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Not necessarily. In comparison, maybe.

But he wouldn't have regarded it as a positive fate for her to be wed to any Lannister, quite like how Sansa herself feels. He is personally invested with this girl. He has seen and been with her during the horrors she has been subjected to. Tyrion may not have beaten her, but he is still a Lannister. I think Sansa and Sandor both have justification not to trust anyone from that family. I also firmly believe that Sandor has his reasons for disliking Tyrion, and these almost certainly include knowing of Tyrion's first marriage and what happened to his wife. Tysha and Tyrion were about the same age as Sansa is when she is forced into this marriage, if you want to draw more parallels. After hearing a story like that, if you're someone who cares about Sansa, would you want to see her wed to the groom from that story? Hell to the no, you would not. Bugger that.

... And then there's Sandor himself. Though he'd never admit it, or even admit to having feelings for her, he might, deep down, be like Jorah, instinctively feeling there's no one better for the girl than him. When he chances to think of it, he knows how he would treat her. A strong warrior, he could protect her so that no one ever hurts her again. He's the only one she's honest with. The only person in KL she actually freakin' talks to, and I don't count the words Sansa might say of her courtesies and placating her captors. They just have an affinity.

But since I mentioned Jorah, let's do a quick comparison and contrast...

SIMILARITIES:

---both are warriors

---both have "saved" the girl

---both are in love with the girl

---both are lower in status to the girl

---both are unlikely suitors (age, appearance, etc)

---both have been with the girl through rough times, stuck by their side

DIFFERENCES:

---Sandor interacts with Sansa as a person. Jorah and Dany do, sometimes, but most interaction is befitting of counselor/knight and the queen.

---Dany cannot think of Jorah in the same way he thinks of her. Sansa frequently, and with detail thinks of Sandor as much as he does with her.

---Jorah stole a kiss. Though the theme is paraded about often, and Sansa misremembers, Sandor never stole any kiss.

---When they part ways, Jorah sulks and visits whores who look like Dany, but oh wait, he does capture Tyrion, trolololo because that will win Dany back quick time, right gaiz? :rolleyes:. Sandor sulks, but ultimately does things that suggest he's trying to shape up his act to try and be a better man for his bird.

---Jorah does not handle rejection well, even when Dany is (imo) kind about doing it. Sandor, acknowledges his bad qualities, even tells Sansa as much as to suggest she shouldn't hang around him or that there are better out there for her.

ETA: and just so no one gets me wrong, I like Jorah!! But he is a little reprehensible.

Thanks. You helped highlight the reasons I've grown to hate Jorah better than I ever did.

I don't know how much Sandor would know about Tasha. I think it is something Tywin would not want known (because Tyrion's marriage would then be known).

But as Joffery's sworn shield, I'm sure he and Tyrion never really got along.

[brashcandy]

@Candace,

In terms of your Jorah/Sandor comparison, Sandor we know also kidnaps Arya (as Jorah does Tyrion) clearly for the purpose of getting back in the good graces of their respective loves ;)

[littlespider]

My problem with Jorah is that he's overbearing* and possessive, and, like Dany, I thought he presumed way too much. Don't get me wrong, I like Jorah as a character, but really, really dislike how he acted toward Dany. It's the same reason that I hate Tris Botley, though otherwise the characters are completely different. There's just this sense that they have this proprietary approach to "their" women, without really trying to understand these women as autonomous themselves. I do not get the sense at all that Sandor approached Sansa in that possessive and proprietary way; after all, he'd seen Joffrey treat her like that. But then I don't think he really ever thought of her as "his" girl, though by SoS I was convinced that he had a thing for her.

At the same time, I do really wonder if Jorah will have shaped up by the time he sees Dany again. And really, when Tyrion observed that he was completely "broken," my shriveled black little heart sort of lurched. Very sad.

*apologies. Puns are the lowest form of humor, indeed.

My moms also heartily approved of the Asha/Qarl episode in DwD, as well as Theon's sixpack and wang in the show. I have not asked her about FPM, and plan to avoid it.

Seriously, though, does George have a thing about describing cocks? Not only is there the fat pink mast, but there's the bulbous purple head! Traumatizing.

[Candor]

@Candace,

In terms of your Jorah/Sandor comparison, Sandor we know also kidnaps Arya (as Jorah does Tyrion) clearly for the purpose of getting back in the good graces of their respective loves ;)

Very well spotted. ;)

And both attempts go awry in the end, definitely not how these men hoped it would end up! Tyrion, Jorah, and Penny get sold as slaves. Arya and Sandor just miss the Red Wedding but end up getting into a fight with his brother's men that wounds him, Arya rides off to Braavos to the HoB&W, valar morghulis, and all. Sandor, as we assuredly know, gets carted off to the QI where the Elder Brother can sort his shit out.

Both seem to have hit a rock bottom. Jorah as littlespider points out below your post, is said to be broken. Sandor's Rock Bottom was probably his deathbed rant to Arya. Hopefully both are coming back up eventually, but so far Sandor looks to be in a healthier emotional condition...

[Candor]

My problem with Jorah is that he's overbearing* and possessive, and, like Dany, I thought he presumed way too much. Don't get me wrong, I like Jorah as a character, but really, really dislike how he acted toward Dany. It's the same reason that I hate Tris Botley, though otherwise the characters are completely different. There's just this sense that they have this proprietary approach to "their" women, without really trying to understand these women as autonomous themselves. I do not get the sense at all that Sandor approached Sansa in that possessive and proprietary way; after all, he'd seen Joffrey treat her like that. But then I don't think he really ever thought of her as "his" girl, though by SoS I was convinced that he had a thing for her.

At the same time, I do really wonder if Jorah will have shaped up by the time he sees Dany again. And really, when Tyrion observed that he was completely "broken," my shriveled black little heart sort of lurched. Very sad.

*apologies. Puns are the lowest form of humor, indeed.

My moms also heartily approved of the Asha/Qarl episode in DwD, as well as Theon's sixpack and wang in the show. I have not asked her about FPM, and plan to avoid it.

Seriously, though, does George have a thing about describing cocks? Not only is there the fat pink mast, but there's the bulbous purple head! Traumatizing.

Oh puns, how lovely. :lmao:

I dislike it as well, even if I do feel bad for the guy's craptastic life.

Again, your mother sounds like a fun lady. I would be interested in her thoughts on the dread FPM, but as you saya, it is something very horrifying and thus hard to bring up.

GRRM's apparent love of describing the err male form makes me go HMM.

[headtrip_honey]

At the same time, I do really wonder if Jorah will have shaped up by the time he sees Dany again. And really, when Tyrion observed that he was completely "broken," my shriveled black little heart sort of lurched. Very sad.

not to get off on a Jorah tangent but I have a lot of Jorah feels and Jorah/Dany was my first ASOIAF ship even though I completely agree with everything you've said and no longer ship the way I once shipped but I still want them to reunite but I think Jorah has been broken and I'm actually kinda scared to see what he'll do when he and Dany see each other again and Dany's last chapter omg her thoughts about her bear and I just wanted to cry for her because her bear has been through hell and all my FEELINGS

::ahem::

Back to Sandor, I think you're right, I don't think Sandor EVER saw Sansa as "his" because he has such an inferiority complex he'd never think he was worthy of her. I think the best he ever thought was that he'd be able to protect her.

Which is why I think he was *okay* (relatively speaking) with her and Joff vs her and Tyrion. In his head he'd be able to rationalize Joff because he would be there to protect her. Even though WE know he'd have limited power, in his head he'd be able to. With her married to Tyrion, and him on the lam in the Riverlands, he had no means of protecting her.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

EDIT: NM

[Candor]

not to get off on a Jorah tangent but I have a lot of Jorah feels and Jorah/Dany was my first ASOIAF ship even though I completely agree with everything you've said and no longer ship the way I once shipped but I still want them to reunite but I think Jorah has been broken and I'm actually kinda scared to see what he'll do when he and Dany see each other again and Dany's last chapter omg her thoughts about her bear and I just wanted to cry for her because her bear has been through hell and all my FEELINGS

::ahem::

Back to Sandor, I think you're right, I don't think Sandor EVER saw Sansa as "his" because he has such an inferiority complex he'd never think he was worthy of her. I think the best he ever thought was that he'd be able to protect her.

Which is why I think he was *okay* (relatively speaking) with her and Joff vs her and Tyrion. In his head he'd be able to rationalize Joff because he would be there to protect her. Even though WE know he'd have limited power, in his head he'd be able to. With her married to Tyrion, and him on the lam in the Riverlands, he had no means of protecting her.

Jorah/Dany was probably my first as well now that I am remembering it, and thought it is bad of him to act like that I still can't help but go a little woob over it at times. Just like with The San and The San, Jaimeh and Brienne, future ships of Bran/Meera, mebbe Arya and Ser Bull, and of course who can forget the greatest romance of all, Stannis and Davos. :wub:

What if Joff doesn't scare him... was this possibly a thought, do you think? Though honestly if he's comparing Turd and Tyrion, they both don't have a great history with women, Turd with Sansa especially... you'd think he'd be more wary of that, but something about Tyrion is worse to him...........AND I WANT TO KNOW WHAT, DAMN IT!

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Jorah/Dany was probably my first as well now that I am remembering it, and thought it is bad of him to act like that I still can't help but go a little woob over it at times. Just like with The San and The San, Jaimeh and Brienne, future ships of Bran/Meera, mebbe Arya and Ser Bull, and of course who can forget the greatest romance of all, Stannis and Davos. :wub:

What if Joff doesn't scare him... was this possibly a thought, do you think? Though honestly if he's comparing Turd and Tyrion, they both don't have a great history with women, Turd with Sansa especially... you'd think he'd be more wary of that, but something about Tyrion is worse to him...........AND I WANT TO KNOW WHAT, DAMN IT!

Maybe. I don't think he knows about Tysha simply because Tywin would want to keep it quiet. Of course, he still might have heard something, if not the details. Or he could have heard of something else. It could simply be he knows her song is not the one she wanted.

I think one of Sandor's biggest attractions to Sansa is the part of her that believes in stories. Like he did as a little boy. He hates it her. He loves it in her. He wants to destroy it in her like it was in him. He wants to protect her and her stories.

He wants to be her shining knight like in the stories. Except he hates knights. And stories.

[headtrip_honey]

Maybe. I don't think he knows about Tysha simply because Tywin would want to keep it quiet. Of course, he still might have heard something, if not the details. Or he could have heard of something else. It could simply be he knows her song is not the one she wanted.

I think one of Sandor's biggest attractions to Sansa is the part of her that believes in stories. Like he did as a little boy. He hates it her. He loves it in her. He wants to destroy it in her like it was in him. He wants to protect her and her stories.

He wants to be her shining knight like in the stories. Except he hates knights. And stories.

Unfortunately Tywin had several (actual number unknown, although Tyrion told Sansa that his first wife's sigil was 100 silver surrounding 1 gold on a bloody sheet, although I think we can all agree that 100 is likely hyberbole) guardsmen participate in the gang rape. I'm sure gossip spread. And Sandor was a member of the household guard, and stood attendance on Cersei and Prince Turd for years. And we know that Cersei knew. So whether he heard it from fellow Lannister guards, or heard it from the royal family's own lips, I'm sure he knew.

[Candor]

Maybe. I don't think he knows about Tysha simply because Tywin would want to keep it quiet. Of course, he still might have heard something, if not the details. Or he could have heard of something else. It could simply be he knows her song is not the one she wanted.

I think one of Sandor's biggest attractions to Sansa is the part of her that believes in stories. Like he did as a little boy. He hates it her. He loves it in her. He wants to destroy it in her like it was in him. He wants to protect her and her stories.

He wants to be her shining knight like in the stories. Except he hates knights. And stories.

Tywin may have wanted to keep it quiet but that's no guarantee that it stayed quiet. Sandor, in Lannister employ might have heard gossips or renditions of the tale. Sure, his hate could just be based on that A: Tyrion is a Lannister B: Tyrion is ugly C: Tyrion has a snarky personality, probably cracked a stinger about Sandor in the past who knows... D: Sandor's jealous :devil:... but even with all of that, the only one with the requisite strength behind it to make him so wounded by the news is if he considers the being a Lannister with the same intensity it puts off Sansa. Which is possible, but I just think he's heard about Tyrion's first wife. He doesn't seem to accord the same desperate horror to any situation involving Turd Baratheon Lannister WATERS.

[1234567]

*apologies. Puns are the lowest form of humor, indeed.

Hey I grew up watching Carry On films and Ealing Comedies: Puns and Innuendo rock.....even if they are immature, they make me chuckle. Also your Mum sounds ace....mine won't even read fiction, but find her a nice thesis on String Theory!

Seriously, though, does George have a thing about describing cocks? Not only is there the fat pink mast, but there's the bulbous purple head! Traumatizing.

Oh and let us not forget Khal Drogo and the glistening. Ugh! Actually the only half non vomit inducing description was of Hodor's!!! I'm really hoping we don't have a Sandor description.

I can't multi quote (stupid bloody iPhone) but I agree with your previous post about the five year thing. The fact is GRRM screwed up. In all honesty he should just do an edited version of the previous books and age the kids up. If Dickens can re edit Oliver Twist (to remove some of the Fagin stuff) then GRRM can do the same.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

headtrip_honey & Lady Candace: Touche. Makes sense.

[Morte]

Also it did sound as if Tysha wasn't from far away, so the rumor would spread even faster. (It would be interesting to know, that the smallfolk thought about this. I'm quite sure Tywin was more feared then loved by them, even if we assume that the rumor did not spread so far. And WTF did the servants of Casterly Rock think about this insident?)

As for Turd: Maybe Sandor thought he could control such a situation better - and in fact we don't even know if he ever did believe in Sansa being married to Joff in the end.