Catelyn: A hugely misunderstood character!

[brashcandy]

Not wanting Jon to be there doesn't make her an evil stepmother. If she was, she'd probably wanted him killed/bullied or abused him rather than simply want him to be away from her. Furthermore, if she trully were an evil stepmother surely she would have done more than just ignore Jon for 14 years which seems more like an act of passive resistance to a situation she did not like and could not control. Again, it appears you are confusing not liking Jon as some basis to being an evil step mother. Catelyn is not obligated to love Jon. Ignoring him was the only thing she had enough power to do in that situation. Its not evil to ignore him expecially in the context of all the evils (not including the way bastards are treated in the series) shown in Westeros.

I never said the woman was evil or that she had to love or like Jon. I'm saying that ignoring him was not healthy for him or her, and does not speak very well of her character. Kicking someone out of the only home they've known as soon as you have the power to do so is really shitty. If Catelyn wanted someone to act out to then it should have been her husband who does indeed carry the blame for being incredibly weak in this situation. Whilst I can understand Cat's frustration, it doesn't excuse or even go very far in explaining why she couldn't bring herself to even be civil to Jon over a 14 yr span. As for not physically abusing him, is that the only thing that you highlight as being typical of the wicked stepmother. Cat found it was much better to let her dislike be clear via other subtle, but loud means.

[headtrip_honey]

I never said the woman was evil or that she had to love or like Jon. I'm saying that ignoring him was not healthy for him or her, and does not speak very well of her character. Kicking someone out of the only home they've known as soon as you have the power to do so is really shitty. If Catelyn wanted someone to act out to then it should have been her husband who does indeed carry the blame for being incredibly weak in this situation. Whilst I can understand Cat's frustration, it doesn't excuse or even go very far in explaining why she couldn't bring herself to even be civil to Jon over a 14 yr span. As for not physically abusing him, is that the only thing that you highlight as being typical of the wicked stepmother. Cat found it was much better to let her dislike be clear via other subtle, but loud means.

I find this to be an exaggeration of her behavior. Martin says that she "distanced" herself. Meaning, to me, that when she could avoid interacting with him, she did, which was probably a good thing for the both of them. When she had to interact with him, she probably was "civil". Martin says that her behavior at Bran's bedside was an exception.

The fact that her children were so close to him, and the fact that we have no evidence that she ever tried to stop these relationships, says to me that her behavior was far more passive than you seem to assume it is.

[ElizaMartell]

Brashcandy - And I've already explained why Catelyn couldn't be civil to Jon. Based on Westeros history and culture bastards were not expected to be seated with true born sons and daughters (Apart from Dorne) and nor would they be educated, trained and treated the same as them. Catelyn was fine that Ned had his way in war but the fact is based on culture having a bastard so close was a slight on her. GRRM already confirmed she neither emotionally or physically abused Jon with moments such as the one with Bran being very rare. I understand feeling sympathy for Jon but you don't seem to acknowledge the context in which Catelyn's mistrust for Jon was based.

[brashcandy]

@headtrip

The children formed relationships with Jon in spite of Cat's behaviour, not because of it. I'm sure she would have been happy if all of them had shunned Jon. When you refuse to call someone by their name, that is not being civil.

[headtrip_honey]

@headtrip

The children formed relationships with Jon in spite of Cat's behaviour, not because of it. I'm sure she would have been happy if all of them had shunned Jon. When you refuse to call someone by their name, that is not being civil.

I'm not saying her behavior made them all to run to him. I'm saying she didn't try to stop it. She let Robb become best friends with Jon, without apparently ever saying anything. If she was really as awful as you think, she would have planted in their minds from a young age that bastards shouldn't be your friend. Sansa is the only one who seems to have gleaned anything "special" about her mother's attitude, and still she is warm and kind to Jon, despite being more formal with him.

But whatever. Futile argument.

[brashcandy]

Brashcandy - And I've already explained why Catelyn couldn't be civil to Jon. Based on Westeros history and culture bastards were not expected to be seated with true born sons and daughters (Apart from Dorne) and nor would they be educated, trained and treated the same as them. Catelyn was fine that Ned had his way in war but the fact is based on culture having a bastard so close was a slight on her. GRRM already confirmed she neither emotionally or physically abused Jon with moments such as the one with Bran being very rare. I understand feeling sympathy for Jon but you don't seem to acknowledge the context in which Catelyn's mistrust for Jon was based.

I do acknowledge it, and I can understand how she might have thought it to be strange. But Cat went on to have a wonderful relationship with the man who brought this child into her life, and I'm judging her on her personal treatment of Jon irrespective of what Westerosi norms are. The culture of the Dothraki commands them to rape women too, but does Dany say "aww shucks, can't do anything about that!"? Cat had 14 yrs to not only get over her resentment, but to see that Jon wasn't a bad person. She chose not to, and this whole thing about norms and cultures may be used to explain why Jon can't sit at the table when the Queen comes to visit, but not why Cat insisted on not calling him by name, or telling Ned that she wanted him gone when he went South. That strikes me as needless spite.

[ElizaMartell]

I do acknowledge it, and I can understand how she might have thought it to be strange. But Cat went on to have a wonderful relationship with the man who brought this child into her life, and I'm judging her on her personal treatment of Jon irrespective of what Westerosi norms are. The culture of the Dothraki commands them to rape women too, but does Dany say "aww shucks, can't do anything about that!"? Cat had 14 yrs to not only get over her resentment, but to see that Jon wasn't a bad person. She chose not to, and this whole thing about norms and cultures may be used to explain why Jon can't sit at the table when the Queen comes to visit, but not why Cat insisted on not calling him by name, or telling Ned that she wanted him gone when he went South. That strikes me as needless spite.

Remember the Tully words and her standing. Cat is pretty cemented into trying to be a good mother. The context of Dany's relation to the Dothraki is a false equivalence. Catelyn is deeply imbeded in the society that she operates in and with that would naturally be very protective of her own kin. The sum of your argument seems to be you can't seem to get over the fact that Catelyn just simply couldn't like Jon. She didn't call him by name and ignored him probably showed restraint on her part to prevent any more drama within the household. Even with her dislike of Jon she still tried to keep some semblance of peace. Its not 'spite', its keeping things in order despite being uncomfortable with the situation she was placed in. Jon is wonderful, brilliant! But the point still remains, Catelyn wasn't obligated to like him. This is something people seem to be unable to get over. You're talking about resentment as something active when if you read through the first book its passive and doesn't cosume Catelyn as you claim it does. She notices Jon's achievement yes, but you make it seem that she has all consuming hatred for him. And that's not the case. She just doesn't like him, the uncertainty he represents and the secrets she still doesn't know. Jon not sitting on the table when Cercei came to visit cannot be put solely on Catelyn's lap and to do that is unfair.

[brashcandy]

Ok, Eliza, well we can agree to disagree :)

[Lemon Cake]

She didn't call him by name and ignored him probably showed restraint on her part to prevent any more drama within the household. Even with her dislike of Jon she still tried to keep some semblance of peace. Its not 'spite', its keeping things in order despite being uncomfortable with the situation she was placed in.

This could boil down simply to us reading the character differently, but I don't think there's anything in Cat's POV chapters to suggest that her motive was as altruistic as keeping peace in the house. In fact, I seem to recall some thoughts from her (though I don't have my book, so I can't give specific quotes) that strongly imply that she was only as "civil" as she was because Ned had scared her shitless that one time she asked about Jon's mother, and because he'd always made it abundantly clear that Jon was under his protection. So my personal understanding is that she felt she had no choice (which really sucked for her, btw... grrr, Ned, you asshole), not because she had some laudable desire to show restraint and keep peace in the family.

But, again, I think it's just that we read the character differently.

And since I want to avoid any accusations that I'm just a Jon stan (I totally am, but that's not why I disliked Catelyn's behavior toward him) or that I think Catelyn is the WORST PERSON IN WESTEROS, I would like to say that any woman who has the stones to wrap her bare fingers around a knife blade when she's being attacked is pretty badass in my book.

[House Martell]

Sansa is the only one who seems to have gleaned anything "special" about her mother's attitude, and still she is warm and kind to Jon, despite being more formal with him.

I think its Sansas attitude toward Jon that should be the most telling, we're beat over the head with how Sansa is young Cat. Bran, Robb, and Arya all think of Jon rather fondly while Sansa only has passing feeling for him, I think the prior 3 have developed a relationship despite Cats feeling while Sansa patterns herself a "lady" like her mother and thereby shuns the bastard.

[headtrip_honey]

I think its Sansas attitude toward Jon that should be the most telling, we're beat over the head with how Sansa is young Cat. Bran, Robb, and Arya all think of Jon rather fondly while Sansa only has passing feeling for him, I think the prior 3 have developed a relationship despite Cats feeling while Sansa patterns herself a "lady" like her mother and thereby shuns the bastard.

..she doesn't "shun" him. She merely calls him "half-brother". There is no evidence, through her recollection or Jon's, that she wasn't kind and friendly to him. Now, she wasn't close to him, but that could just be personalities.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I understand feeling sympathy for Jon but you don't seem to acknowledge the context in which Catelyn's mistrust for Jon was based.

The problem is not an inability or unwillingness to understand Cat's feelings. It is disagreeing over whether she had an obligation as a human being to overcome them. Some people believe she had no such obligation. I believe she did, both for her family's and Jon's sake, as well as for her own.

It is interesting to me that so many people point to her simply ignoring Jon as a point in her favor. Seriously, can you for a moment imagine being the child growing up in that situation? Having the primary member of the household you grew up in refuse to ever speak to you or say your name? It is astonishing to me that so many people are prepared to brush that off as nothing, when so obviously it is behavior that would have caused hirt and feelings of alienation on a daily basis. I try to imagine myself simply pretending my stepson doesn't exist, because I resented having him foisted on me to raise, and my solution is just to ignore him completely. First, my husband would have a COW, if not a divorce (which was unfortunately not a choice for Ned). Secondly, friends and family would think I was the biggest bitch ever born for acting that way. And third, it would be liable to get me reported for emotional and mental abuse.

I have this sneaking suspicion that Ye Olde "modern sensibilities" argument will be thrown out in dispute of this, but seriously ...the concept of nurturing and loving children was not invented in the 20th century. Cat certainly had no trouble seeing what love and attention her own children needed to thrive. Denying that to another innocent child because you are endlessly pissed at how your husband made him is just nonsense.

And as far as the "bastards are/were different" argument goes, to me that falls utterly to pieces when you consider the welcome and raising that Sam (whose own father despised him) knew "his" bastard son would receive at Horn Hill from his mother and sisters. Obviously where and how a bastard fits into a family structure is entirely up to the family. Cat was under no societal obligation to treat Jon like a permanent scourge. That was her choice.

[Lemon Cake]

I think the prior 3 have developed a relationship despite Cats feeling while Sansa patterns herself a "lady" like her mother and thereby shuns the bastard.

No, she doesn't. Sansa was more distant with Jon than her siblings were and somewhat snobbish in her attitude, that much is clear. But there are several indications, especially in Jon's POV, that they did have some friendly interactions and that Jon remembers her fondly. She obviously remembers him fondly as well, because in AFFC she thinks about how sweet it would be to see him again.

I've made no secret of the fact that I don't like Catelyn's attitude toward Jon, but I don't think she actively tried to teach her children to shun him.

[headtrip_honey]

It is interesting to me that so many people point to her simply ignoring Jon as a point in her favor. Seriously, can you for a moment imagine being the child growing up in that situation? Having the primary member of the household you grew up in refuse to ever speak to you or say your name? It is astonishing to me that so many people are prepared to brush that off as nothing, when so obviously it is behavior that would have caused hirt and feelings of alienation on a daily basis.

And as far as the "bastards are/were different" argument goes, to me that falls utterly to pieces when you consider the welcome and raising that Sam (whose own father despised him) knew "his" bastard son would receive at Horn Hill from his mother and sisters. Obviously where and how a bastard fits into a family structure is entirely up to the family. Cat was under no societal obligation to treat Jon like a permanent scourge. That was her choice.

I'm just going to address the above two points:

1. I didn't mean to imply that ignoring him was a good thing on Cat's part (by the way, we have no evidence that she ignored him actively (ie, when he was there she pretended not to see him. Martin says she distanced herself. Meaning she avoided interacting with him when possible, imho.) All I meant to say was Ye Olde "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." IE, if she would have had to feign positive interaction, and possibly may have slipped, simply avoiding him may have been the best option for them both under those circumstances.

2. Sam's case is different - his mother was receiving a bastard grandchild (and his sisters a bastard nephew), not a bastard unrelated to her (or at least as far as she knew). So I'm not sure you can really compare the two.

[House Martell]

..she doesn't "shun" him. She merely calls him "half-brother". There is no evidence, through her recollection or Jon's, that she wasn't kind and friendly to him. Now, she wasn't close to him, but that could just be personalities.

I think the fact that when Jon leaves he says good-bye to Bran,Robb,& Arya but not Sansa speaks to their relationship.

[brashcandy]

No, she doesn't. Sansa was more distant with Jon than her siblings were and somewhat snobbish in her attitude, that much is clear. But there are several indications, especially in Jon's POV, that they did have some friendly interactions and that Jon remembers her fondly. She obviously remembers him fondly as well, because in AFFC she thinks about how sweet it would be to see him again.

I've made no secret of the fact that I don't like Catelyn's attitude toward Jon, but I don't think she actively tried to teach her children to shun him.

I agree.

@LadyoftheNorth - Very well said. Since when can ignoring someone for 14 yrs, especially a child in your home, be considered a "reasonable" response to being upset with your husband? Anyhoo, I always promise myself I will not engage in Cat/Jon debates but somehow I never stick to that promise. (must do better) :bang:

[headtrip_honey]

I think the fact that when Jon leaves he says good-bye to Bran,Robb,& Arya but not Sansa speaks to their relationship.

So apparently he and Rickon are on the rocks, using that logic.

[House Martell]

I've made no secret of the fact that I don't like Catelyn's attitude toward Jon, but I don't think she actively tried to teach her children to shun him.

I don't think she actively tried to teach the kids that, I'm just saying Sansa reflects Cat's attitude. And yes they play together as children, but as soon as Sansa is old enough to know what a bastard is her attitude changes.

-by the way I did a search through the books for "bastard" and I had no idea how much that word is used, its crazy, these books are filled with bastards...

[LordBloodraven]

Sure the cases are different. An attempted murder is much worse than saying something no matter how mean and hurtful. Yet because Thorne is an asshole, apparently everyone is fine with Jon trying to kill him, and since Jon is The Hero, a mean remark to him is the worst act in the books..

Well, you'll need to compare similar cases first. A boy who just learned that his father has been arrested, his sisters hostage and his brother going to war and who is being mocked for that by one smirking grown man, who hardly gave him a rest, while doing his chores and holding a knife and who's reacting impulsively by attempting to murder the culprit is hardly blamable. It's not about Jon being the "hero" (which seems to irk you); it's about reacting impulsively to a asshole that searched, found and mocked him for a tragedy.

How is that comparable to Cat, calling out Jon while he already opened the door to tell him a useless and mean "It should have been you"?

[House Martell]

So apparently he and Rickon are on the rocks, using that logic.

I don't think anybody likes Rickon, they seem to be content to just let him go off and play with his giant wild wolf by himself, that kid's probably a jerk...