Catelyn: A hugely misunderstood character!

[Ran]

lyvythan,

Riverrun? Do you forget what Tyrion thinks in his chapter?

Riders would be after them within the day, birds would take wing, and surely one of the river lords would want to curry favor with his father enough to take a hand.

Catelyn knew this just as well as Tyrion did. Going to the riverlands would leave her exposed to any lord wanting to "curry favor" with Tywin -- it's not like all the riverlords are in lockstep with the Tullys. The relatively sparsely populated path to the high road gave her the best chance of not being detected or followed by forces opposed to her.

Simple as that. Score one with Cat, who was a step ahead of Tyrion... whom she didn't want to grab, mind you, but felt forced to because of the sure knowledge that letting him go meant that Cersei would soon realize she had been in the south, secretly meeting Ned and revealing all sorts of troubling things for the Lannisters.

It's interesting that Cersei, Jaime, and Tywin seem to have never realized that Catelyn had been in KIng's Landing. The only Lannister who knew is Tyrion, and he kept that detail to himself.

[The King in the South]

perhaps she does not allow him to take so many men, how can you guarentee that? In her absence Ser Rodrik is in charge but with her presence I'd even say it's likely she would have made sure Winterfell was secure no matter what. And perhaps if Cat was in Winterfell Theon doesn't have the nerve to try and take it.

Perhaps she does, perhaps she doesn't. There was no reason to expect Winterfell was in any danger whatsoever, and besides Rodrik was an expierenced warrior. I'm sure if he thought there were enough guards Catelyn would have agreed.

I don't like this judgment of Cat's character based simply on speculative terms. Perhaps if she ends up going north than Edmure meets with Stannis and accidently makes him declare war on Robb. Who's to say?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

She never says anything about his being a fool. That's your spin. The text is incredibly clear about her reasoning, and it has nothing to do with spite. She's trying to keep a grip.

This isn't really just my spin, Catelyn's general stance towards people who disagree with her is to feel that they just aren't capable of understand her (correct) opinion. I am fairly certain in SoS she literally has the though "My brother is a fool." I happen to have a special place in my heart for Edmure, not only for the way Catelyn treats him but also Robb and the Blackfish. But perhaps more to the point, yes, I think it is nasty to show absolutely no appreciation for the hardship Edmure has endured on her behalf. Regardless of her emotional state.

Catelyn is the one who wants the war to end, who sees where "The King in the North" inevitably will lead Robb, who prays for both sides while at Renly's camp and recognizes the true cost and effect of war while there too (consider her conversation with Lord Rowan). Catelyn is quite clearly aware of what war actually means, stripped of the glory and hubris of kingdoms and self-righteousness. Claiming she doesn't care about that seems sort of bizaare to me.

You're really glossing over my claim that she is right about peace for the wrong reasons. Where is Catelyn's awareness 'of what war actually means, stripped of the glory and hubris of kingdoms and self-righteousness' when she thinks the deaths of several thousand soldiers might free Ned from the Red Keep? Once Ned is dead she sees that the best outcome she can hope for is to trade Jaime for Sansa and (she thinks) Arya and peace. She does not want peace because of the cost to the Karstarks or the Manderly's or the smallfolk. She wants peace so her children would be safe, just as she didn't mind the deaths of other people's children if there was a chance that those deaths could bring her husbsand back to her.

[The King in the South]

IIRC a 14 yr old taking Dorne (for a time)...either he is old enough to go to war or not, you can't say "yes he can lead an army, as long as his mom comes along"

And that 14 year old was often mentioned as being exceptional, brillant, surronded by great advisors, etc. And he also had about 5 times as much men as did his enemy. And he also technically failed.

Would you be arguing the same thing if Ned was the person we were talking about? (Whether or not he should come along) I don't think it matters whether it's his mother or his father or his 2nd cousin three times removed, Robb needed good advisors, and Catelyn was one.

[House Martell]

Perhaps she does, perhaps she doesn't. There was no reason to expect Winterfell was in any danger whatsoever, and besides Rodrik was an expierenced warrior. I'm sure if he thought there were enough guards Catelyn would have agreed.

I don't like this judgment of Cat's character based simply on speculative terms. Perhaps if she ends up going north than Edmure meets with Stannis and accidently makes him declare war on Robb. Who's to say?

Ser Rodrik is a Knight of course he is going to want to ride off to battle with as many men as possible, Cat is a Lady and her children are in WInterfell I don't think it's crazy to think she is going to side with caution and make sure Winterfell is absolutly secure and require more men stay then Rodrik, he may even feel the need to leave more with her there. It's not wildly speculative to say Cat at Winterfell would have ment more men guarding then Ser Rodrik calling the shots

[Evamitchelle]

IIRC a 14 yr old taking Dorne (for a time)...either he is old enough to go to war or not, you can't say "yes he can lead an army, as long as his mom comes along"

Well he probably should have taken his mom along because his "conquest" was an epic failure. Dorne rebelled practically immediately, killed the lieutenant he had put in charge and killed 40,000 of his men. He also died at 18. Somehow I don't think that's the route Cat wanted Robb to take.

[Ran]

Onion,

I am fairly certain in SoS she literally has the though "My brother is a fool."

This is because he is at times a fool. You can have a special place for him -- he was badly used by the Blackfish and Robb, for example, when it seems clear that they were the ones who screwed up in failing to communicate with him -- but he really is quite often foolish. Is she supposed to pretend that he's not?

But perhaps more to the point, yes, I think it is nasty to show absolutely no appreciation for the hardship Edmure has endured on her behalf. Regardless of her emotional state.

She didn't show "no appreciation" for the hardships he endured:

He looked worn and tired, battered by battle and haggard from strain. His neck was bandaged where he had taken a wound. Catelyn hugged him fiercely.

Note the juxtaposition -- she's cataloging his injuries, his tiredness, his battered state, and so she hugs him "fiercely" -- that's clearly a direct reaction to how he looks and how she feels he's suffered.

This does not give him a free ride, however, when she is in a very real way even more wounded than he is.

[The King in the South]

Ser Rodrik is a Knight of course he is going to want to ride off to battle with as many men as possible, Cat is a Lady and her children are in WInterfell I don't think it's crazy to think she is going to side with caution and make sure Winterfell is absolutly secure and require more men stay then Rodrik, he may even fell the need to leave more with her there. It's not wildly speculative to say Cat at Winterfell would have ment more men guarding then Ser Rodrik calling the shots

But it's crazy to think if Catelyn wasn't in the south Robb would have done just fine? I don't see how her possible helpfulness in the North would be better than her evident helpfulness in the South.

[House Martell]

But it's crazy to think if Catelyn wasn't in the south Robb would have done just fine? I don't see how her possible helpfulness in the North would be better than her evident helpfulness in the South.

What did Robb accomplish with her help??? He captured Jamie, she let him go (which ended up having terrible far reaching consequeces). She was sent to meet with Renly, he didn't join. I mean really if Cat was such a big help what did they accomplish? She went south, the Freys/Lannisters hold Riverrun, Winterfell is in Bolton hands, ummm Robb is dead, what did she accomplish?

[Ser Hippie]

You're really glossing over my claim that she is right about peace for the wrong reasons.

Because your point has no real grounding at all. Catelyn's feelings towards her family are obviously stronger than her feelings about the Karstarks or Umbers or whoever. However, she clearly states she doesn't view fighting on for "honor" or "glory" to be a good thing because it means people will get killed and families ruined. It's no great sin to care more about your family than another but she cares about those others nonetheless.

Where is Catelyn's awareness 'of what war actually means, stripped of the glory and hubris of kingdoms and self-righteousness' when she thinks the deaths of several thousand soldiers might free Ned from the Red Keep? Once Ned is dead she sees that the best outcome she can hope for is to trade Jaime for Sansa and (she thinks) Arya and peace. She does not want peace because of the cost to the Karstarks or the Manderly's or the smallfolk. She wants peace so her children would be safe, just as she didn't mind the deaths of other people's children if there was a chance that those deaths could bring her husbsand back to her.

Right before the various river and Northern lords declare Robb king, she specifically mentions that they went to war to

(1) Defend themselves from Tywin's aggression (which they did) and

(2) Save Ned (Which they did not)

After declaring this she states that with that in mind she doesn't want more suffering and death and wants to go home. Yes, she specifically references Robb but that's because it's to him she's addressing her argument (as he's the nominal commander-in-chief of the Nothern/Riverland alliance). She makes it pretty clear that she views the war as over and wants everyone to recognize that so they can go home to their wives and families. This sentiment is the same she expresses to Lord Rowan when she's at Renly's camp, when she prays for all involved when Renly and Stannis are about to battle. As a PoV character, she's of course going to dwell on her own situation more than others.

She's not foolish enough to think that all death can be avoided (your argument seems to be "well if she was so pro-peace why favor fighting for Ned at all), but she has a lot more compassion than you seem to recognize, she simply tempers it with pragmatism.

That compassion is also present in Sansa as well.

[House Martell]

Well he probably should have taken his mom along because his "conquest" was an epic failure. Dorne rebelled practically immediately, killed the lieutenant he had put in charge and killed 40,000 of his men. He also died at 18. Somehow I don't think that's the route Cat wanted Robb to take.

I know, I know, it was asked if there were young commanders and that was an example of one.

[The King in the South]

What did Robb accomplish with her help??? He capture Jamie, she let him go (which ended up having terrible far reaching consequeces). She was sent to meet with Renly, he didn't join. I mean really if Cat was such a big help what did they accomplish? She went south, the Freys/Lannisters hold Riverrun, Winterfell is in Bolton hands, ummm Robb is dead, what did she accomplish?

Um, the Renly part didn't work out because Renly ended up being assassinated. Catelyn is the one responsible for bringing the Frey's to their side, solidfying his relationship with the Riverlands. (As a tully her influence held far more than a Starks), giving him key military advice (which worked rather well) and all and all keeping his morality up.

If she had gone North I'm pretty sure the Greatjon or Roose would have convinced him to do something idiotic like marching on Tywin well he was in Harrenhal.

[Ser Hippie]

He capture Jamie

After the Catelyn-negotiated alliance with the Freys let him cross.

She was sent to meet with Renly, he didn't join.

As opposed to him sending some clueless Northern lord who would have made an outright enemy of Renly/Stannis.

I mean really if Cat was such a big help what did they accomplish? She went south, the Freys/Lannisters hold Riverrun, Winterfell is in Bolton hands, ummm Robb is dead, what did she accomplish?

The vast majority of which is Robb's fault, not Catelyn's. Had she gone north the only change would have been her death/imprisonment occuring in the north rather than at the Twins.

[Evamitchelle]

I know, I know, it was asked if there were young commanders and that was an example of one.

Yes, and he was obviously terrible. That's probably why most 14-year-old aren't allowed to start a war.

[House Martell]

Um, the Renly part didn't work out because Renly ended up being assassinated. Catelyn is the one responsible for bringing the Frey's to their side, solidfying his relationship with the Riverlands. (As a tully her influence held far more than a Starks), giving him key military advice (which worked rather well) and all and all keeping his morality up.

If she had gone North I'm pretty sure the Greatjon or Roose would have convinced him to do something idiotic like marching on Tywin well he was in Harrenhal.

How did that Frey allience work out?

And I'm sure the Blackfish could have made sure just as well as Catelyn Tully-Stark that Robb didn't make any foolish military mistakes.

[Evamitchelle]

How did that Frey allience work out?

How is it Cat's fault that Robb married Jeyne Westerling ?!

And I'm sure the Blackfish could have made sure just as well as Catelyn Tully-Stark that Robb didn't make any foolish military mistakes.

Brynden "Let's burn all our crops" Tully ? He's a fine outrider/scout but I'm not so sure of his political prowess.

[House Martell]

Yes, and he was obviously terrible. That's probably why most 14-year-old aren't allowed to start a war.

Yeah but a 16 yr old Robb Stark isn't an equal comparision to some 14 yr old spoiled, in-bred Targ either.

[The King in the South]

How did that Frey allience work out?

And I'm sure the Blackfish could have made sure just as well as Catelyn Tully-Stark that Robb didn't make any foolish military mistakes.

Yeah because it's totally Catelyn's fault Robb went off and broke the promise because he got horny.

And er, the Blackfish hasn't shown any skill whatsoever at negotiation. Besides, I'm pretty sure he and Lord Walder don't like eachother, where at least there is the mutual respect with Catelyn.

[The King in the South]

Yeah but a 16 yr old Robb Stark isn't an equal comparision to some 14 yr old spoiled, in-bred Targ either.

Err what? Are you kidding me? How is the Targ kid more spoiled than Robb? Both have lived pampered lives without any hardships. And lol at the incest shit...are you kidding me? At least try to come up with a good arguement instead of taking stupid jabs like that.

[Lady of Long Lake]

How about Martin himself saying that Catelyn did not emotionally abuse Jon? Whether or not you agree with it, Jon had no right to sit with the king and his family. Ellaria Sand, a bastard, was not allowed to be seated with the other highborn women at Joffrey's wedding because it would cause an upset.

Catelyn did not hate Jon. She says that she "could not bring herself to love him". These are not the thoughts of an evil woman, which is why I find it so disgustingly misoygnistic when people name her as their least favourite character.

You have a link? Or know what year in the SoSpakeMartin I should look through?

Thank you kindly!