Catelyn: A hugely misunderstood character!

[Ser Hippie]

and beside my issue isn't with what makes more sense stratigically, its about a mother leaving her 3 yr old and 8 yr old newly crippled son with "care takers", there is no arguemnt that makes that ok in my mind. We're told to excuse her actions on one hand because she does it for her daughters or for Robb, but what about Rickon & Bran?

She can either be with Robb (who needs help) or at Winterfell (where Master Luwin, Old Nan, etc. are all responsible for taking care of Bran and Rickon too), not both. This isn't modern day Earth, she's not a stay at home mom. I'm not sure why sitting around at Winterfell to babysit Rickon and Bran was a better thing to do than provide her advice and counsel to Robb (especially as she was in a good place to do so and generally provided good advice). Her goal, after all, wasn't to play at war but to end it and get her family home safely. She can't do that from Winterfell.

[David Selig]

But what really burned my up on reread was the stance she took at the council that names Robb King in the North at the end of GoT. She tries to convince the gathered Lords to make peace with the Lannisters because Ned has already been executed and she wants to trade Jaime for her daughters. This is where the selfishness comes in- and I'm willing to grant that she cares about her children, but I'm still going to call what she does here selfishness. The assembled Lords reject her plea because they want revenge, the Lords of the Riverlands have had their lands burned and the Lords of the North have lost sons and soldiers in battle. And Catelyn had no problem sacrificing their lands and lives when she captured Tyrion or thought the war might free Ned from the Red Keep. To be clear, I'm not saying Cat started the war- that was definitely Littlefinger- but she didn't care about peace when she was seeking justice for Bran or freedom for Ned. And she sits at the council with these people who have sacrifices so much for her and her family and instead of feeling grateful she thinks how foolish they are, how they should just see that the best thing to do is to trade Jaime for Sansa and Arya and sue for peace. She devalues any opinion that runs contrary to her own, that's what makes her such a frustrating POV to read.

She was right on that, wasn't she? A peace here would've been much better than the catastrophe which Robb and his bannermen's thirst for vengeance brought them. Besides, whatever the reasons, she wanted a peace and overcome the simplistic blood thirst for vengeance at all costs despite losing her husband, which is really admirable.

But hey, all those "military geniuses" wouldn't listen to a woman and look what happened to them in the end...

My question is, what is there to like about Catelyn? Sure, she loves her children- so does Cersei Lannister, who uses her love of to justify horrible evils. Catelyn doesn't do the terrible things that Cersei does but where is her good side? Where is her love for cripples bastards and broken things? I don't see any redeeming qualities I see the worst traits of an entitled high born lady. She doesn't spare a single thought for the suffering the smallfolk endure in the fight for her family but when she wants to end the fight they're all a bunch of idiots for wanting vengeance. Cat is not a bad person, but she certainly isn't a good person and she has nasty judgmental streak in her.

Who among the smallfolk wanted vengeance? All of those in the meeting here are lords. The events later proved her right that the lords were idiots for wanting vegeance. Most smallfolk would've welcomed the peace.

I'd say Cat is certainly a good person and that's pretty clear. Good-hearted, kind, with plenty of empathy her husband and kids loved her very much. Risked her life to save a perfect stranger in Brienne, made sure everyone of the oarmen of the ship which took her to Kl got their promised bonus, etc.

and beside my issue isn't with what makes more sense stratigically, its about a mother leaving her 3 yr old and 8 yr old newly crippled son with "care takers", there is no arguemnt that makes that ok in my mind.

If the war was lost, those kids were screwed, so she stayed where she thought she could help the most. What's so hard to understand? Besides, those "caretakers" probably did a lot more of the care for the kids even when she was in Winterfell - she was a high lady, not a modern soccer mom.

[House Martell]

Why would Robb have a good chance of handling things without Catelyn around? He openly admits to feeling completely inadequate and it's through her that he finds his confidence. Not to mention it's Catelyn who secures the alliance with the Freys...

Theon took the castle at night, even with a handful of men (unless you think Catelyn should have taken even more from Robb's army which was going to war) would not have mattered at all. Catelyn would have done nobody any good at Winterfell except the ironborn.

Cat could have gained the allience with the Freys boosted Robbs confidence and then went home. (I said it was her going south that I disagreed with). And Blackfish could have given him counsel as well (Cat could have instructed him to do so).

Robb was going to have 50 men guard her during the battle at Whispering Woods, they settled on 30 IIRC, so lets use that number for her escort back to Winterfell. Another 30 men walking the Walls at Winterfell certainly could have made a differnce, plus maybe Cat sees that they have far to few guards and calls for more, plus her presence allow Cassel to do his job better. And even if she does nothing at least she is by her babies side instead of learning their fate from a raven.

[House Martell]

If the war was lost, those kids were screwed, so she stayed where she thought she could help the most. What's so hard to understand? Besides, those "caretakers" probably did a lot more of the care for the kids even when she was in Winterfell - she was a high lady, not a modern soccer mom.

Oh I forgott Catelyn Tully-Stark was the known military stratigist and her advice was needed and listen to on the battle field. And she spent a month at Brans side at one point, then all of a sudden she can completly abandon him?

[Ser Hippie]

Cat could have gained the allience with the Freys boosted Robbs confidence and then went home. (I said it was her going south that I disagreed with). And Blackfish could have given him counsel as well (Cat could have instructed him to do so).

Who does Robb send to Renly then? The point is clearly made that none of his bannermen would be appropriate choices, especially given they're supporting Robb's claim to kingdom when Renly is claiming all of Westeros (plus all of his Northernmen lack experience with Southron politics).

Robb was going to have 50 men guard her during the battle at Whispering Woods, they settled on 30 IIRC, so lets use that number for her escort back to Winterfell. Another 30 men walking the Walls at Winterfell certainly could have made a differnce, plus maybe Cat sees that they have far to few guards and calls for more, plus her presence allow Cassel to do his job better. And even if she does nothing at least she is by her babies side instead of learning their fate from a raven.

Bran isn't a baby (neither is Rickon really, but anyway). Your basic argument is that Catelyn's role should be a stay at home mom without providing any real substantive evidence for it. As other posters have noted, the castle household helped raise the kids too, and she's also one of Robb's most valuable advisors (probably his most valuable political one, with Blackfish being the most valuable military). Why is her being at Winterfell for a short time before being captured (even assuming she could get there before Theon, I'm not sure what the exact timelines would be) so important?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Replying to Onion Azai, I think Catelyn is the only one who acts with any common sense at the meeting where Robb is named King of the North. Agree with you that she does come across as pompous and self entitled but she is thinking of other peoples children as well when she asks the Lords at the council to consider making peace. Her point is that continuing the war wont bring Ned back or anyone elses loved one back, they have achieved thier aim of breaking the seige of Riverrun and can no longer save Ned.

I should clarify my point and say that I think she is right about peace being the best option- but for entirely the wrong reasons. One bit of Catelyn nastiness that stood out to me was when she first enters Riverrun and sees Edmure who says something along the lines of 'I'm sorry about Ned, we'll make the Lannisters pay for this.' To which Cat replies something like 'Oh yea? Is that going to bring Ned back?'

Now, poor Edmure earlier suffered a smashing defeat and was captured by the Lannisters. His people have suffered, his men have died, and his honor is wounded. And all of this has occurred simply because Catelyn was born a Tully and the Riverrlands are closer to the Lannisters than the North. But Edmure's first thought is to offer his sympathy and to tell his sister that he is behind her 100%. And she feels it's ok to snap back at him because he, to her, is just a fool who doesn't see things her way.

I simply see no evidence that she has at all considered the costs of war as applied to smallfolk or even lesser Lords than the Starks and Tullys. I think she is basically right about the futility of further war, but I think it's fundamentally unfair for her to feel entitled to the sacrifice of the people she views as her inferiors when she thinks she has something to gain and to then turn around and chastise the same people as shortsighted fools for not realizing that she now has more to gain through peace than through war.

[Ran]

there is no arguemnt that makes that ok in my mind

What's the point of eliciting arguments if you're going to reject them all because of an irrational pet peeve of yours?

Others have already given defensible and reasonable reasons why it's silly to expect Catelyn to sit in Winterfell doing nothing (except gettng captured by Theon Greyjoy, presumably, and leaving Brienne of Tarth to be butchered by Loras Tyrell for her part in Renly's death) when she was far more useful for her family down south, attempting to negotiate the dangers of the war to find the best possible solution for the Stark situation.

Onion,

You sound familiar.

That "nastiness" of Cat's? You forgot what she was thinking:

Will that bring Ned back to me?" she said sharply. The wound was still too fresh for softer words. She could not think about Ned now. She would not. It would not do. She had to be strong.

She's not being nasty to be nasty. She's being sharp because he's adding salt to her own wounds through his misguided offer of sympathy, and she's on the verge of breaking down when she needs to be strong for her family, she needs to be able to see her father without turning into a weeping mess and she needs to be able to join Robb's council.

She never says anything about his being a fool. That's your spin. The text is incredibly clear about her reasoning, and it has nothing to do with spite. She's trying to keep a grip.

Gah. I throw up my hands, but by all means, feel free to my recent post to another reader with views quite similar to your own erroneous reading of Catelyn's character.

[Ser Hippie]

I should clarify my point and say that I think she is right about peace being the best option- but for entirely the wrong reasons. One bit of Catelyn nastiness that stood out to me was when she first enters Riverrun and sees Edmure who says something along the lines of 'I'm sorry about Ned, we'll make the Lannisters pay for this.' To which Cat replies something like 'Oh yea? Is that going to bring Ned back?'

How is that nasty? She's echoing the same sentiment expressed by Ellaria Sand - having a bloody war with the Lannisters isn't going to bring Ned (or anyone) back, isn't going to heal any wounds, isn't going to make anyone whole again.

And she feels it's ok to snap back at him because he, to her, is just a fool who doesn't see things her way.

His feelings, while understandable, are foolish for the same reason the bloodthirstiness of the Sand Snakes seems foolish to Ellaria Sand.

I simply see no evidence that she has at all considered the costs of war as applied to smallfolk or even lesser Lords than the Starks and Tullys. I think she is basically right about the futility of further war, but I think it's fundamentally unfair for her to feel entitled to the sacrifice of the people she views as her inferiors when she thinks she has something to gain and to then turn around and chastise the same people as shortsighted fools for not realizing that she now has more to gain through peace than through war.

Catelyn is the one who wants the war to end, who sees where "The King in the North" inevitably will lead Robb, who prays for both sides while at Renly's camp and recognizes the true cost and effect of war while there too (consider her conversation with Lord Rowan). Catelyn is quite clearly aware of what war actually means, stripped of the glory and hubris of kingdoms and self-righteousness. Claiming she doesn't care about that seems sort of bizaare to me.

[clover]

There are things I like about her, but one big nagging quality that irks me.

Sometimes when she is about to act on something...

Why, oh, why, when she seems to think things through and has a gut feeling that something it is not going to work or is going to be disastrous, why does she go ahead and do them anyway?

This happens a few times. Sometimes she seems to share tunnel vision with her husband in regard to things.

Oh, and she needed to really get over the John Snow thing. Too mean to him. I thought she was going to relax when she saw John upset and affectionate at Bran's bedside. She didn't budge, she was worse to him.

[House Martell]

What's the point of eliciting arguments if you're going to reject them all because of an irrational pet peeve of yours?

Others have already given defensible and reasonable reasons why it's silly to expect Catelyn to sit in Winterfell doing nothing (except gettng captured by Theon Greyjoy, presumably, and leaving Brienne of Tarth to be butchered by Loras Tyrell for her part in Renly's death) when she was far more useful for her family down south, attempting to negotiate the dangers of the war to find the best possible solution for the Stark situation.

Part of my argument is that Winterfell has a better chance of not being taken with Cat there. Plus Brienne's fate shouldn't superceed her own children, and Cat didn't gain Renlys support anyway so what good was she there. Her advice was not taken for the most part, she would have been solely in charge at Winterfell and perhaps with her appearnt expertice there Theon is unsuccessful. And she is keeping an eye on her youngest children.

[birdsong66]

IIRC, wasn't it Catelyn that Ned named Regent in the North in his absence? It was only during her subsequent absence that Robb was the Stark in Winterfell, hosting the bannermen, calling for war. Once that happened, she could hardly, as was clearly stated in the book, send him back home, nor could she return. It was her family, and her ties to Riverrun which enabled Robb to return victorious in his first battle, she knew this, and thus stayed if only to ensure that Ned wasn't killed because the North was an inferior military force. She also provided The Blackfish.

Ultimately, Robb was going to send her to Bitterbridge because he couldn't bring himself to behead her for treason, a punishment, I might add, she was completely prepared for. It made him look weak regardless of his admission that she had been right early on.

Seems to me, on the cusp of the RW, Robb needed Catelyn the most, and true to form, he was planning on sending her away.

[lyvyathan]

Cat couldn't make it all the way to Winterfell, so she went to the nearest place where she thought she could expect to receive justice - the Eyrie. She had no way of knowing her sister was unhinged, and thought that her sister would support HER, not take Tyrion as her own prisoner and preside over that farce.

There was another alternative which was mentioned in her POV in that chapter where she kidnapped Tyrion - she could have taken Tyrion to Riverrun which was very close and a safe distance away from the Inn.

She took Tyrion to Lysa for the sole reason that she believed her sister had the key piece of information which would unlock the mystery of Bran's attempted murder and bring down the assumed Lannister conspiracy.

Catelyn was already warned by Littlefinger that the evidence against Tyrion was flimsy and she was told by her husband that war would not likely come - but like a 3 year old child who has just been told by her father not to jam the fork into the toaster - she did exactly what was warned against.

Unfortunately Catelyn's rash act of kidnapping Tyrion was the spark that started Tywin's War - she should have known better because the previous time a high noble person had been "kidnapped" (or so it seems) was Ned Stark's sister by the Targaryen King's son - which led to quite a bit of bloodshed.

Face it, she was a headstrong idiot just like Tyrion was a womaniser.

[The King in the South]

Part of my argument is that Winterfell has a better chance of not being taken with Cat there. Plus Brienne's fate shouldn't superceed her own children, and Cat didn't gain Renlys support anyway so what good was she there. Her advice was not taken for the most part, she would have been solely in charge at Winterfell and perhaps with her appearnt expertice there Theon is unsuccessful. And she is keeping an eye on her youngest children.

This is such a moot arguement though. Winterfell was garisoned with a lot of people, but Rodrik took them all away to fight the Ironborn. I gurantee you any men Cat would have brought with her would have gone along with Sir Rodrik. (He gathered 2000 men, but only left a dozen at winterfell. It's not like he short men to guard to Winterfell)

Besides, no one could whatsoever predict that Winterfell was going to be attacked. It is however, logical to assume that a 16 year old king was going to be placed in a lot of binding situations and could use solid advice.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I don't wish to justify Cat but I think it was her grief talking there. After all she's a mother and mothers get insane when their children are harmed.

Lets not forget the words of the Tully's, and Cat was raised with them: family, duty, honor....

That is an excuse and nothing more. It was her last chance to get her last parting shot in on Jon without anyone there to witness her being a bitch.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I still don't see how that led to her death, and by death i mean red wedding, and by red wedding i mean wtf robb? really?

And again you have to put her actions into context, and by the level of information she had in those circustamces, i don't think they were bad decisions.

And again i say, people in these forum find simpathy for charaters that have desired and done far worse than Catelyn, for one thing, her intent was always the best for her family, i think people are using double standards here, and really biased against Catelyn.

If she would have stayed at Winterfell instead of going to Kings Landing she wouldn't have died during at the RW.

[jarl the climber]

I should clarify my point and say that I think she is right about peace being the best option- but for entirely the wrong reasons. One bit of Catelyn nastiness that stood out to me was when she first enters Riverrun and sees Edmure who says something along the lines of 'I'm sorry about Ned, we'll make the Lannisters pay for this.' To which Cat replies something like 'Oh yea? Is that going to bring Ned back?'

Now, poor Edmure earlier suffered a smashing defeat and was captured by the Lannisters. His people have suffered, his men have died, and his honor is wounded. And all of this has occurred simply because Catelyn was born a Tully and the Riverrlands are closer to the Lannisters than the North. But Edmure's first thought is to offer his sympathy and to tell his sister that he is behind her 100%. And she feels it's ok to snap back at him because he, to her, is just a fool who doesn't see things her way.

I simply see no evidence that she has at all considered the costs of war as applied to smallfolk or even lesser Lords than the Starks and Tullys. I think she is basically right about the futility of further war, but I think it's fundamentally unfair for her to feel entitled to the sacrifice of the people she views as her inferiors when she thinks she has something to gain and to then turn around and chastise the same people as shortsighted fools for not realizing that she now has more to gain through peace than through war.

See now were getting to area where Catelyn acted stupidly, some other people have made the point that she gives good advice to others but is incapable of acting rationaly herself. She doen't practice what she preaches but I believe the analysis I read of her it was actually presented as more complicated than that. Seizing Tyrion was foolish but we must ask ourselves why Tyrion was named as the owner of the kinfe when we know he wasn't? Catelyn considers him to be the least dangerous of the Lannister kids at this point and also might still be in the North. Seems kind of convenient doesn't it. Too bad she couldn't see that and she does help start the war but the Hoster Tully didn't have anything to do with it or Ser Edmure. Are you saying that Tywin was justified in sending the Mountian to rape and kill in the Riverland and launching a full scale invasion when Ned tries to give the victims some justice? Catelyn acted foolishly but she and her son had almost been killed and she was being manipulated and did have good reasons to suspect the Lannisters.

[House Martell]

Why is her being at Winterfell for a short time before being captured (even assuming she could get there before Theon, I'm not sure what the exact timelines would be) so important?

Her returning to Winterfell with the men Robb would have required to go with her and her ability and power to additionally secure the castle (call for more guards) could have made a difference. Plus her presence obviously changes the whole "kids hidding in the crypts" senerio and maybe Reek/Ramsey isn't able to steal control from Theon. Winterfell is certainly better off with Cat there and as many people have pointed out Cats war advice isn't (or even rarely) followed.

and this whole "soccor/stay at home mom" argument, how many other lords take their mothers to battle with them? where does this notion that Cats place is with Robb come from? What other examples are there that Cat should be with Robb instead of running Winterfell?

[The King in the South]

Her returning to Winterfell with the men Robb would have required to go with her and her ability and power to additionally secure the castle (call for more guards) could have made a difference. Plus her presence obviously changes the whole "kids hidding in the crypts" senerio and maybe Reek/Ramsey isn't able to steal control from Theon. Winterfell is certainly better off with Cat there and as many people have pointed out Cats war advice isn't (or even rarely) followed.

and this whole "soccor/stay at home mom" argument, how many other lords take their mothers to battle with them? where does this notion that Cats place is with Robb come from? What other examples are there that Cat should be with Robb instead of running Winterfell?

How many lords are commanding an army of 20000 men at age 15-16?

[House Martell]

This is such a moot arguement though. Winterfell was garisoned with a lot of people, but Rodrik took them all away to fight the Ironborn. I gurantee you any men Cat would have brought with her would have gone along with Sir Rodrik. (He gathered 2000 men, but only left a dozen at winterfell. It's not like he short men to guard to Winterfell)

perhaps she does not allow him to take so many men, how can you guarentee that? In her absence Ser Rodrik is in charge but with her presence I'd even say it's likely she would have made sure Winterfell was secure no matter what. And perhaps if Cat was in Winterfell Theon doesn't have the nerve to try and take it.

[House Martell]

How many lords are commanding an army of 20000 men at age 15-16?

IIRC a 14 yr old taking Dorne (for a time)...either he is old enough to go to war or not, you can't say "yes he can lead an army, as long as his mom comes along"