Catelyn: A hugely misunderstood character!

[wyman's cook]

Robb should have known how to handle his mother and keep her at bay..He didn't and she fucked em bigtime when she released Jaime..I never liked her character that much, but when she did that i instantly hated her and even though i was "shocked" when i reached the RW incident i was also "satisfied" to see those two clowns (robb and cat) get what they had coming to them..even though i still wait to see what are the RW planners gonna get in return..heh eheh

[Revan Baratheon]

As far as im concerned throwing someone from a high tower is an attempt of murder, i meant jaime in that quote.

Is amazing the hate Catelyn gets, for saying something to Jon, and makin eventuel mistakes, while other characters threaten, beat, rape, kill and still get some simpathy.

One commenter before mentioned theons "remorse", and is that nearly enough after killing two children? I don't think so.

As i said before, Catelyn's actions pale before other character's, and she was always intent on doing what was best for her family, can't say the same about some other characters in this series. And her fate was just terrible, becoming an undead, mad with rage, i don't think she deserves this.

i think if martin had simply let catelyn die,instead of the stoneheart thing,alot of people would appreciate her more and would even miss her,like we miss Robb.I liked Cat but i simply detest Stoneheart.

I'd rather much have an UnRobb then an UnCat anyway..

[Daena the Defiant]

Nobody remembers the Blackfish's comments regarding Jon in AFFC? Catelyn seemed convinced Jon was some sort of evil mastermind who planned to kill her children and take Winterfell, meaning even willingly after taking the Black, she still saw him as a threat and hated him.

All Brynden said was that Catelyn "never trusted" the boy. You are supplying the word hate from your own prejudices against Catelyn. Catelyn didn't trust Jon because she didn't trust bastards based upon the threat they pose to her family. Catelyn had a lingering suspicion in her heart that Jon wanted to take Winterfell and supplant her own offspring, which is a) a tad overblown as a concern b] somewhat borne out by the lingering Blackfyre episodes and c) confirmed by Jon himself when he thinks about how HE WANTED WINTERFELL, all of it, and ALWAYS DID.

Nowhere, however, does it say that Catelyn hated Jon. Feel free to find the reference if you can. we'll wait patiently.

[Revan Baratheon]

double

[headtrip_honey]

im guessing ur one of those SanSan fans? or Sansa the queen of westeros...

That's offensive. We'd never spout drivel like that.

[Revan Baratheon]

That's offensive. We'd never spout drivel like that.

yea i removed that..i dont wanna start with Sansa..

[Evamitchelle]

I think Damar refers to this quote : "Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy. It would seem she was right about them both."

But from that quote on it seems quite a leap to say that Cat considered Jon an evil kinslayer-in-waiting. She said it herself that she was more afraid about Jon's sons rising up against her grandsons for Winterfell (and seriously, why wouldn't she ? Westeros has been having wars for more than 60 years because of Aegon's bastards, the last of which was fought less than 50 years before the beginning of the story - and closer to the North you just have to look at how the whole Domeric-Ramsay reunion turned out to understand her concerns) than of Jon himself.

[headtrip_honey]

yea i removed that..i dont wanna start with Sansa..

Good because your comment was ridiculous and founded on...nothing.

[Daena the Defiant]

Robb should have known how to handle his mother and keep her at bay..He didn't and she fucked em bigtime when she released Jaime..I never liked her character that much, but when she did that i instantly hated her

Just to play Stranger's advocate...

What were the repurcussions Catelyn freeing Jaime with regards to the war effort?

- did the fact that Jaime was a hostage send Tywin to the negotiating table?

- was Jaime's captivity a factor in making Tywin temporaily call for a truce?

- was Sansa immune to abuse during the time that Jaime was also a prisoner?

- was Jaime a valiant and skillful general who led the Lannisters to crushing victory upon his release?

Did *any* of those things happen? Yes? No? If no, why was Catelyn's freeing of Jaime in exchange for the North's heirs such a huge blunder that causes you to hate her?

Can you explain your hatred? Is it because you can't recognize the underlying motivation for her actions?

[Errant Bard]

Jon: "They hate me because I'm better than them!"

Tyrion: "They hate you because you think you are better than them."

This wasn't Tyrion, that was Noye. Tyrion would have been more like to say "Fuck them, you are better than them, let their hate be proof of your superiority, and encourage it."

[Lemon Cake]

I think Jon had terrible entitlement issues all the way through GoT. The previously mentioned feast incident for example, where he wasn't allowed to sit next to the King and Queen and gets very angry and decides to drown it in alcohol, leading him to crash into a serving girl. Then he keeps saying how no one told him what the NW was like (never mind the fact that Benjen told him he should wait because he was too young). The NW seems good enough for the Lord of Bear Island and the Lord of Winterfell's brother though, who both volunteered for it, yet Jon still thinks Ned was trying to get rid of him by sending him to the NW because he's a bastard. Then he's angry at all the other recruits because they're not as good as him and starts bullying them before Noye quickly calls him out on it. When he's assigned to the stewards he starts flipping out because he thinks he's better than every body else : "Do you take me for a servant ?" (which is doubly insulting since his friend has just been assigned to the stewards himself and is right next to him, though he didn't seem to consider it too low for his friend to be a steward). And when he hears about Ned and wants to go south and break his vows he starts telling off Maester Aemon that "no one knows how I feel" (paraphrasing), but Aemon is once again quick to call his BS.

To me Jon really comes off as a whiny brat in the first book. He was just lucky enough to be called on his BS almost immediately by the people around him (Benjen, Noye, Aemon, Sam etc.) so that he has now improved in that regard.

He's fourteen, though. At that age, most of us were to some degree whiny and entitled and inconsiderate and thought the whole world was ~omg SO UNFAIR. I certainly did. I think it's to Jon's credit that, every single time he was called out on his BS, he didn't stomp off in a huff and pout about how ~no one understood him~, but rather listened to what was said, reevaluated his behavior, and afterward behaved better because of it.

Also, I think saying that Jon had it better than most bastards, and therefore shouldn't complain, is a bit unfair and dismissive. I'm not arguing that he didn't have a better life than most bastards in Westeros (he absolutely did), but that doesn't mean that he had no problems and that his life was a worry-free, pain-free, trouble-free romp through a land of puppies and rainbows, nor does it mean that Catelyn's behavior didn't make at least one part of his life uncomfortable and perhaps even painful. Just as I can understand why Catelyn was hurt by Jon's presence, I can also totally understand why Jon was hurt by her coldness. It's a valid feeling on his part, and I don't think it should just be waved off with, "Oh well, he could have had it so much worse, so he should just get over it, that stupid entitled little brat."

[Revan Baratheon]

Just to play Stranger's advocate...

What were the repurcussions Catelyn freeing Jaime with regards to the war effort?

- did the fact that Jaime was a hostage send Tywin to the negotiating table?

- was Jaime's captivity a factor in making Tywin temporaily call for a truce?

- was Sansa immune to abuse during the time that Jaime was also a prisoner?

- was Jaime a valiant and skillful general who led the Lannisters to crushing victory upon his release?

Did *any* of those things happen? Yes? No? If no, why was Catelyn's freeing of Jaime in exchange for the North's heirs such a huge blunder that causes you to hate her?

Can you explain your hatred? Is it because you can't recognize the underlying motivation for her actions?

Dont feed the troll ;)

[headtrip_honey]

This wasn't Tyrion, that was Noye. Tyrion would have been more like to say "Fuck them, you are better than them, let their hate be proof of your superiority, and encourage it."

Yeah, they gave Noye's line to Tyrion in the show.

[The Storm Queen]

Robb should have known how to handle his mother and keep her at bay..He didn't and she fucked em bigtime when she released Jaime..I never liked her character that much, but when she did that i instantly hated her and even though i was "shocked" when i reached the RW incident i was also "satisfied" to see those two clowns (robb and cat) get what they had coming to them..even though i still wait to see what are the RW planners gonna get in return..heh eheh

Yep, our manly experienced wise boy king Robb should have known how to handle the weak wimenz! You cannot accept a grown woman to form intelligent idea, she needs the guidance of her 14-year-old son for that. If only Robb would have supervised his mother better she would have been unable to bang Jeyne Westerling and send Theon home to an insurgency-in-waiting. No broken marriage contract with the Freys, no Ironborn rebellion..good times...

Why oh why did Catelyn no realize that her most noble task was to stay home with her little children, adorably greeting the nice Ironborn guests and misunderstood little Reek......

[birdsong66]

Nobody remembers the Blackfish's comments regarding Jon in AFFC? Catelyn seemed convinced Jon was some sort of evil mastermind who planned to kill her children and take Winterfell, meaning even willingly after taking the Black, she still saw him as a threat and hated him.

I do. More specifically, I remember that once Ned decided that Jon would not be allowed to accompany him to KL, and Maester Lewin suggested Jon's desire to take the black, Catelyn said absolutely nothing, internally thanking Lewin for raising the subject, and considered the NW to be a suitable solution. The fact that she did not trust Jon was a belief informed more by bastard rebellions existing previously, while she was a child at Riverrun, than anything Jon specifically did while at Winterfell. Nonetheless, the fact that Jon was Jon does not, in its entirety, preclude that he would not seek Winterfell in the future, which was her very real fear.

Let's try it this way: Theon was a ward at Winterfell, raised with highborn Stark children, just as Jon was. Yet, it is presumed that he murders both Bran and Rickon, seizes Winterfell, and names himself prince. Did the fact that he warded at Winterfell prevent his future actions? And, moreover, were his actions not a very real threat or fear of Catelyn's, and Ned's to some extent, prior to Robb sending him to the Iron Islands?

Sending Jon to the NW is erring on the side of caution, pure and simple. Jon wanted to go, Ned couldn't take him with him, Catelyn wouldn't raise him without the presence of Ned. It was the best soltution in a shitty situation that had every possibility of getting even shittier in the future. Jon remained a threat because Jon remained alive, be it on the wall or not. But on the wall, he is slightly more contained, not caged, but contained. That he was a child raised with his highborn siblings does little to determine, absolutely, what acts he would be capable of as a grown man.

[Revan Baratheon]

Yep, our manly experienced wise boy king Robb should have known how to handle the weak wimenz! You cannot accept a grown woman to form intelligent idea, she needs the guidance of her 14-year-old son for that. If only Robb would have supervised his mother better she would have been unable to bang Jeyne Westerling and send Theon home to an insurgency-in-waiting. No broken marriage contract with the Freys, no Ironborn rebellion..good times...

Why oh why did Catelyn no realize that her most noble task was to stay home with her little children, adorably greeting the nice Ironborn guests and misunderstood little Reek......

:rofl: :lmao: typos i love em!

[The Storm Queen]

no, that was actually cynicism :-)

[Revan Baratheon]

"she would have been unable to bang jeyne" is cynicism?? lol i like u..

[birdsong66]

DAMN!

I hate it when I confuse the HBO show, with the actual novels.

Thanks for the corrections, all.

[Daena the Defiant]

He's fourteen, though. At that age, most of us were to some degree whiny and entitled and inconsiderate and thought the whole world was ~omg SO UNFAIR. I certainly did. I think it's to Jon's credit that, every single time he was called out on his BS, he didn't stomp off in a huff and pout about how ~no one understood him~, but rather listened to what was said, reevaluated his behavior, and afterward behaved better because of it.

Also, I think saying that Jon had it better than most bastards, and therefore shouldn't complain, is a bit unfair and dismissive. I'm not arguing that he didn't have a better life than most bastards in Westeros (he absolutely did), but that doesn't mean that he had no problems and that his life was a worry-free, pain-free, trouble-free romp through a land of puppies and rainbows, nor does it mean that Catelyn's behavior didn't make at least one part of his life uncomfortable and perhaps even painful. Just as I can understand why Catelyn was hurt by Jon's presence, I can also totally understand why Jon was hurt by her coldness. It's a valid feeling on his part, and I don't think it should just be waved off with, "Oh well, he could have had it so much worse, so he should just get over it, that stupid entitled little brat."

Well, to be sure, he had a better life than 99% of the people in Westeros. If not exactly the warmest, most loving household, he was free from want and need and I daresay, lived in luxury.

However, his upbringing was destined, albeit unintentionally, to foster hurt feelings all around. Ned insults his wife and threatens her when she wants information so she sublimates that hurt and anger towards Jon, although she generally keeps it locked under an icy veneer. Jon is raised inside the bubble but while being told by all of society that he will never actually be inside the bubble, and is left wondering why that red-haired lady doesn't love me as much as the other kids.

The fact that Lady Catelyn didn't cleave wee baby Jon her motherly bosom and hug him and kiss him is not the same as her actively mistreating him. The fact that Jon had a relatively easy life doesn't mean that his life was optimal. I have to wonder what Ned's plans were for him? Did he think he would be able to marry him off to some lord's second daughter as part of the feudal network? Marry some servitor's girl and live life fulfilled as Winterfell's master-at-arms or something? What did he think was going to happen when you a raise a boy like a lord knowing that the life of a lord is unavailable to him.

All in all, I blame Ned for this atrocious situation. He could have just easily given baby Jon to one of his household knights and his wife and tell him to raise Jon inside Winterfell - Jon would safe and warm and cared for, have a suitable surrogate mother figure and Catelyn and House Tully wouldn't be so affronted.