birdsong66 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Well, I don't remember Jon making nasty comments on Bran while he was with Cat at Bran's bed the way Thorne commented on NedThey mutually wanted nothing to do with one another. GRRM provides ample documentation attesting to the fact that, regardless of Catelyn, Jon was forever reminded that he was a bastard in his own internal POV dialogue. It is also suggested that Jon needed to be reminded by others of his great fortune in being a Stark Bastard, namely Ned's bastard, as his life would have been dramatically different if that were not the case. But, please, let's not pretend that Jon worked real hard on a handprint ashtray for Lady Stark for Mother's Day, and her reaction was to shatter it against a wall. Jon wanted his birth mother, and his inherent sense of entitlement would not have allowed him to settle for Catelyn. As for being afraid to enter Bran's sick room whilst Catelyn was present, I rather think this is the result of two people who have mutually decided avoid one another being forced into a situation where being together is unavoidable. I think it simplistic to forgive Jon his actions due to hurt feelings, because he is a child, but refuse to allow the same for Catelyn simply because she is an adult. As it relates to Jon, she is also relegated to a child in that she is not allowed to make decisions, and must bend to Ned's will. Does she hurt less, or is her pain less valid because she is older? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Baratheon Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 BTW, here's how Jon dealt with the stress and grief in a similar situation to Cat's after Bran fall - when he got news that Ned is imprisoned in KL and heard Thorne say " “Not only a bastard, but a traitor’s bastard,” , he completely lost it and tried to kill him. Somehow nobody dislikes him for an attempted murder. Somehow Cat just saying "it should've been you" is way worse.yea but in that case thorne totally deserved it....how did jon aggravate catelyn to justify wat she told him? the poor guy just wanted to see off his half-brother... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 How is wishing her daughter to be placed at the pinnacle of their society (Sansa as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms - House Stark and House Tully would then have descendants placed upon the Iron Throne, which in turn would lead to advantages for her other children and her grandchildren) not choosing family?Well, I think we have different interpretations for 'choosing family' :)In my interpretation choosing 'family' is - as a mother - keeping your husband and children safe and close to each other.Choosing 'duty' and 'honor' in my interpretation is - as a noble woman clearly is expected to do - 'wishing your daughter to be placed at the pinnacle of society, to have descendants placed upon the Iron Throne, which would lead to advantages for other children and grandchildren'.This is I think exactly why Catelyn is so compelling as a character. She is torn between being a mother and Lady Stark, between a Tully and sister and daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daena the Defiant Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 yea but in that case thorne totally deserved it....how did jon aggravate catelyn to justify wat she told him? the poor guy just wanted to see off his half-brother...And the poor girl is sitting by her son's perceived deathbed as her husband and daughters are leaving and then the personification of her husband's infidelity and her own great social shame just walked into what she thinks should be a private family moment.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daena the Defiant Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Well, I think we have different interpretations for 'choosing family' :)In my interpretation choosing 'family' is - as a mother - keeping your husband and children safe and close to each other.Choosing 'duty' and 'honor' in my interpretation is - as a noble woman clearly is expected to do - 'wishing your daughter to be placed at the pinnacle of society, to have descendants placed upon the Iron Throne, which would lead to advantages for other children and grandchildren'.This is I think exactly why Catelyn is so compelling as a character. She is torn between being a mother and Lady Stark, between a Tully and sister and daughter.You don't think it is a good mother's duty to make decisions that would propel your children toward future success and prosperity?You are basically saying that it would be a more family oriented decision to refuse your daughter's full scholarship to Yale because she'd have to leave home. It would be the more family oriented thing to have her stick around and go the local community college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 yea but in that case thorne totally deserved it....how did jon aggravate catelyn to justify wat she told him? the poor guy just wanted to see off his half-brother...What? How the hell did Thorne deserve it? Are you seriously saying murder is OK if someone feels provoked by an insult? BTW, what Thorne said was perfectly true as far as he knew - Jon was a bastard and his father was declared a traitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaMartell Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Eliza, it's fine if SHE doesn't want anything to do with him. He isn't looking for her society either in that scene. He'd be happy if she weren't in the room! It's Cat who wants to deny him actively to say his farewells to his brother. These quotes are the most we have about their relationship and they show a vivid picture. I draw implications from the text because it's implied that Cat making Jon feel unwelcome wasn't a single incident. He is pretty obviously afraid to even step into the room. Why is that if she has always been just withdrawn? That shouldn't send Jon running and crying. He isn't a coward after all. It probably depends on what you understand as "verbal abuse". I'm sure she didn't call him "f***ing bastard, you useless piece of sh*t!" But I can imagine she said/expressed such things like "What are you doing here?" or "We don't want you here" on a more regular basis. We have only Jon's POV to go on of course, he mentions 2 instances unconnected to the Bran incident. Jon isn't objective of course, but he doesn't hate Cat and his feelings are what count on that matter. They are very clear - he feels fear, reluctance, nervousness when he can't avoid her. Making Jon feel uncomfortable is not cruelty though. Furthermore, it has been shown by that quote of GRMM that Catelyn hasn't emotionally abused Jon. You have to really subvert the meaning and indications of verbal abuse to justify the argument Jon was some tortured soul living off breadcrumbs in Winterfell no thanks to his evil stepmother. Just because someone isn't nice to you doesn't make it abuse, expecially when it sums up in the person ignoring you for most of your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Maintenance Man Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 How does freeing jaime leads to her death? As far as i know he had nothing to do with the Red Wedding.And about Tyrion, she onle met him there by chance and she did it because she suspected he was the one behind the attempt to murder her son - wich ironically was something done by jaime. And still, what does that have to do with her and robbs death?The assassin was sent by Joffrey, Jaime threw him from the tower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damar Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 And the poor girl is sitting by her son's perceived deathbed as her husband and daughters are leaving and then the personification of her husband's infidelity and her own great social shame just walked into what she thinks should be a private family moment....A private family moment that had lasted last several days and her own favourited son telling her to stop it as she had other family to take care of like her youngest Rickon who was confused and scared by the situation and clinged onto Robb because his own mother was ignoring him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Well ... she hadn't left the room for one moment, if I recall correctly. Jon had to leave for the Wall that same day.I like Catelyn, but you pinpoint exactly what I see as a tiny flaw in her behaviour.In this exact moment she chooses for herself, for her own grief.Not for her own son, who if he woke up could have been devastated if the brother he loved didn't say goodbye to him.I'm not saying Catelyn is a bad person, she isn't. She has some flaws, as is human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Cake Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 And the poor girl is sitting by her son's perceived deathbed as her husband and daughters are leaving and then the personification of her husband's infidelity and her own great social shame just walked into what she thinks she be a private family moment....I have a lot of sympathy for Catelyn in that situation and I don't hold her comment to Jon against her (I've said some pretty awful things when I've been in emotional pain, too). But to be fair to Jon, it's not his fault that he's a walking reminder of Ned's infidelity; it's Ned's fault that he is. After 14 years, Catelyn should have readjusted her thinking on this and directed her anger at the right person. As for it being a private family moment, I can see how Catelyn may have thought of it that way, but she'd been sitting at Bran's bedside for weeks without ever leaving, so it's not like Jon had the option to wait until she wasn't there. He had to either go in while she was there, or not say goodbye to Bran at all. I may have misunderstood you, but you seemed to be implying that Jon was trying to provoke her by going into the room while she was there, which he was not.I definitely think that Catelyn's treatment of Jon is made too much of by Cat haters, but by the same token, I think it's often made too little of by her defenders. Her behavior toward Jon is not one of the positive things about her character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headtrip_honey Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Well ... she hadn't left the room for one moment, if I recall correctly. Jon had to leave for the Wall that same day.I like Catelyn, but you pinpoint exactly what I see as a tiny flaw in her behaviour.In this exact moment she chooses for herself, for her own grief.Not for her own son, who if he woke up could have been devastated if the brother he loved didn't say goodbye to him.I'm not saying Catelyn is a bad person, she isn't. She has some flaws, as is human.I think that's a bit much. The reason she never left Bran's bedside wasn't for herself - if it was for her own grief, she could have been wailing in the comfort of her own bedroom. Instead she chose to barely sleep or eat so that she could be there in case HE needed her, in case HE woke up.Now, was what she said to Jon harsh? Yes. Should she have thought about how Bran would have felt? I guess, but I don't fault her for only seeing the immediate predicament instead of what he may or may not have thought upon awakening. She was just hoping he'd wake up, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daena the Defiant Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 A private family moment that had lasted last several days and her own favourite son telling her to stop it as she had other family to take care of like her youngest Rickon who was confused and scared by the situation and clinged onto Robb because his own mother was ignoring him.Well, how long would you say it is acceptable to sit by the side of your dying son knowing that your other children are being tended for by the myriad of servants? She wanted to be there in case he needed her. Would you cap it at just one day? Two days? How long would you say is socially permissible under the rules of etiquette? I do realize that extended display Catelyn''s grief and concern might intrude on Jon Snow's visitation plans."Oh well, I did my maternal duty by sitting at his side in misery and grief for two whole days! I guess that's enough time. I have to go change Rickon's nappies anyway. Silly, silly me." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Baratheon Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 What? How the hell did Thorne deserve it? Are you seriously saying murder is OK if someone feels provoked by an insult? BTW, what Thorne said was perfectly true as far as he knew - Jon was a bastard and his father was declared a traitor.totally deserved getting beaten into pulp by jon...i doubt he wouldve killed him,and thorne said that shit just to provoke jon,he was doing that right from when jon arrived at the wall.Anyway Alliser Thorne is pretty much dead now,so good riddance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daena the Defiant Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I have a lot of sympathy for Catelyn in that situation and I don't hold her comment to Jon against her (I've said some pretty awful things when I've been in emotional pain, too). But to be fair to Jon, it's not his fault that he's a walking reminder of Ned's infidelity; it's Ned's fault that he is. After 14 years, Catelyn should have readjusted her thinking on this and directed her anger at the right person. Oh, I agree, but surely people can see that when she was exhausted and miserable and *should not have* directed her anger at Jon for Ned's failings, that one time when she was actively hurtful she was not at her best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdsong66 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 A private family moment that had lasted last several days and her own favourited son telling her to stop it as she had other family to take care of like her youngest Rickon who was confused and scared by the situation and clinged onto Robb because his own mother was ignoring him.Wow. Just, wow. Clearly she had difficulty with reading comprehension as she exceeded the acceptable limit of grief for one of her children as is specifically detailed in the Rules of Westeros Handbook.And, just to be clear, Bran was her favorite child. It was made very clear by GRRM. Her behavior toward Jon is not one of the positive things about her character.Agreed. But it's existence should not negate that there are positive things about her character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Cake Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Oh, I agree, but surely people can see that when she was exhausted and miserable and *should not have* directed her anger at Jon for Ned's failings, that one time when she was actively hurtful she was not at her best.Absolutely. I'm not a fan of the way she handled the Jon Snow situation in general, and it's the one thing I won't defend her for (though I'll defend her for almost everything else). But oddly, I was never especially bothered by the specific scene at Bran's bedside and by what she said to Jon, simply because she was in so much pain and, as you said, was not at her best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Baratheon Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Oh, I agree, but surely people can see that when she was exhausted and miserable and *should not have* directed her anger at Jon for Ned's failings, that one time when she was actively hurtful she was not at her best.dont get me wrong,im not hating catelyn here,this was just my reply to defend Jon when people were saying that he was the most privileged bastard and all that...i was pointing out stuff like this to prove that Jon dosent have it all that easy.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Cake Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 But it's existence should not negate that there are positive things about her character.No argument here. I like Catelyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdsong66 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 i was pointing out stuff like this to prove that Jon dosent have it all that easy..This is a hornet's nest better left untouched.I will not touch, I will not touch. No. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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