Catelyn: A hugely misunderstood character!

[Evamitchelle]

A private family moment that had lasted last several days and her own favourited son telling her to stop it as she had other family to take care of like her youngest Rickon who was confused and scared by the situation and clinged onto Robb because his own mother was ignoring him.

Besides, she herself realized that this wasn't her best moment and resolved to change her behaviour accordingly : "Catelyn remembered the way she had been before, and she was ashamed. She had let them all down, her children, her husband, her House. It would not happen again." But if you blame Cat for not giving enough attention to Rickon then Ned should be blamed as well for deciding to leave when he did while perfectly aware that his wife was still grieving.

[PrinceHenryris]

The more I saw of Cat the less I liked her.

[Daena the Defiant]

dont get me wrong,im not hating catelyn here,this was just my reply to defend Jon when people were saying that he was the most privileged bastard and all that...i was pointing out stuff like this to prove that Jon dosent have it all that easy..

But's the whole problem - he does have it that easy. He is raised like a lord's son in the one of the most powerful houses in the Seven Kingdoms. He gets training from maesters and masters-at-arms. He lives in the Stark family apartments. He learned to fight and ride and read and write and never had to work a day in his life, was dressed in fine clothes and ate the lord's high table the same fare as the lord's heir and sons, and with daughters deemed suitable consorts to princes. Ser Alliser says as much when he arrives at the Wall: for all intents and purposes, he was raised just a "real nobleman" just that he had no inheritence rights.

One of the reasons that he was so miserable when the royal family came to visit was that he was excluded from eating at the the high table because that's where he normally eats ( having him sit there would be perceived as a grave social slight to Cersei [this is confirmed when Tyrion was working out the seating chart for Joffrey's wedding - Having Ellaria at the high table would cause an uproar among the noblewomen]). Mind you, no one seems to care that Catelyn was subjected to this social insult (magnified because it is her husband) every single day.

What he didn't have was a nurturing parent, I guess. However, since Ned is his parent (supposedly) and Catelyn is not, I guess the blame falls surely on the shoulders of Ned for failing to address his "son's" emotional needs.

[Ghost Rider]

They mutually wanted nothing to do with one another.

Then she should have ignored him instead of lashing out. And I don't talk about the "it should have been you" quote, but about the rather cutting remarks before that!

GRRM provides ample documentation attesting to the fact that, regardless of Catelyn, Jon was forever reminded that he was a bastard in his own internal POV dialogue. It is also suggested that Jon needed to be reminded by others of his great fortune in being a Stark Bastard, namely Ned's bastard, as his life would have been dramatically different if that were not the case.

"There really is a great deal of evidence to suggest that our happiness is not only a function of our own income but also of other people's income. (...) One question of interest is: Who exactly do we compare ourselves with? (...) In an article published in the Quarterly Journal of Economics, Luttmer shows how the average earnings of those who live locally to us really - and I mean really - affect one's definition of happiness in America." (from The happiness equation: the surprising economics of our most valuable asset

by Nick Powdthavee)

If you apply that to the situation at hand, you will find that Jon isn't likely to compare himself to people like Gendry or Hotpie, just as you aren't likely to compare yourself to some unfortunate person on this world. He will likely compare himself to his siblings, to his own detriment of course. And that's why he won't be thankful that he's Ned's bastard and personally I think he would have probably been happier to grow up in a poorer, but loving family, maybe like the Hornwood bastard or Mya Stone.

But, please, let's not pretend that Jon worked real hard on a handprint ashtray for Lady Stark for Mother's Day, and her reaction was to shatter it against a wall. Jon wanted his birth mother, and his inherent sense of entitlement would not have allowed him to settle for Catelyn.

Oh really, how could he want his birth mother? Must be a real bad guy! Especially since Cat certainly didn't act the surrogate mother, not that I blame her for that. I'm afraid you'd have to enlighten me on his entitlement issues as I haven't seen those.

I think it simplistic to forgive Jon his actions due to hurt feelings, because he is a child, but refuse to allow the same for Catelyn simply because she is an adult. As it relates to Jon, she is also relegated to a child in that she is not allowed to make decisions, and must bend to Ned's will. Does she hurt less, or is her pain less valid because she is older?

No, she's just expected to act more reasonable. And don't forget that Jon was provoked by Thorne while he hasn't done anything to provoke Cat, save only for the inexcusable crime of existing.

Well ... she hadn't left the room for one moment, if I recall correctly. Jon had to leave for the Wall that same day.

I like Catelyn, but you pinpoint exactly what I see as a tiny flaw in her behaviour.

In this exact moment she chooses for herself, for her own grief.

Not for her own son, who if he woke up could have been devastated if the brother he loved didn't say goodbye to him.

I'm not saying Catelyn is a bad person, she isn't. She has some flaws, as is human.

I completely agree. She even said "we don't want you here", even though I'm pretty sure that Bran would beg to disagree. :) So she even presumes to speak in the name of her injured child.

[headtrip_honey]

Then she should have ignored him instead of lashing out. And I don't talk about the "it should have been you" quote, but about the rather cutting remarks before that!

...what rather cutting remarks, if I may be so bold?

ETA: And I looked through all of Jon and Catelyn's chapters before Jon goes to the Wall. Nothing.

The only thing that even BORDERS on "cutting" wasn't even said to Jon, but to Ned, when she said that she would not have Jon stay at Winterfell in Ned's absence.

[Faceless Sam]

so catelyn being not particularly nice to her husband's bastard makes her the most unlikeable character in the books?

that does seem like quite a leap to me.

[Errant Bard]

No, she's just expected to act more reasonable.

I don't know if you can qualify as "reasonable" a behaviour Ned thinks is so unexpectable that he's asking his own gods to weight in for him.

[littlespider]

I totally disagree. If you can name a time where Tyrion or Jaime said anything that would be remotely analogous to what Catelyn said to Jon without the witticism, I'd love to hear it. Jon is a child under her care...witticism in her verbal abuse would have made it more horrible, not less.

Without the witticism: As long as I get the pleasure of raping and killing my sister.

[Daena the Defiant]

I completely agree. She even said "we don't want you here", even though I'm pretty sure that Bran would beg to disagree. :) So she even presumes to speak in the name of her injured child.

Such presumption! Such effrontery! She clearly should realize that Jon's wants and needs are soooooo much more important that hers, and obviously, she should let him adress his emotional needs to the exclusion of her own and what she perceives to be Bran's physical needs, and plus she should just be a dutiful and humble woman and slink off and go deal with Rickon and his diapers . Jon wants to visit. So, so sorry.

[littlespider]

Okay, you have me on Theon, but only because of the deaths of the miller's sons, which he has shown a TON of remorse for.

His remorse frequently involves reminiscing about the large dark nipples of the miller's wife.

None of the others mentioned have the same reckless disregard for innocence, except maybe Melissandre and her whole Kingsblood/Edric Storm thing.

Tywin: Tysha

Cersei: Robert's bastards

the Hound: Mycah

Tyrion: Tommen

Tywin, Amory, Gregor: the Targaryen children

[Revan Baratheon]

Without the witticism: As long as I get the pleasure of raping and killing my sister.

lets not forget the part where he cheerfully admits to killing his mother,father,newphew...^_^

[Archmaester Marwin]

Victarion respects innocence ?! :rofl:

Like that time when he beat his wife to death for being raped by his brother ? Or the time when he burned 7 women alive as an offering to R'hllor ? Or maybe the time when he threw the male prostitutes over the board because they were "unnatural" ? Or killed his mester because his healing skills weren't good enough for him ? Yeah, real white knight right there.

You also seem to forget the part where Aeron actively engages in reaving and pillaging for a living, and asks for people to be drowned on a regular basis as an offering to the Drowned God (like Benfred Tallhart).

And how could I think that burning people alive because your god tells you to is worse than being mean to your husband's bastard ?

EDIT :

Catelyn said something off colour about not liking her husband's BASTARD, a feeling she DIDN'T act on or even remotely consider.

I really don't see how that's worse.

I think it was implied that Victarion's wife was raped by Euron. Even if she wasn't, the fact that you seem to consider being beaten to death an appropriate reaction to cheating is troubling. And she was a salt wife to begin with, aka a slave.

I don't remember the implication that Victarion's wife was raped by Euron. I only remember Euron taunting Victarion saying "she came to me, wet and willing"

Still, I admit defeat. Clearly these two Ironborn are objectively worse people than Catelyn Stark ever was. I guess her (relatively mild, all things considered) mistreatment of Jon hit a sore spot with me as I am a stepchild myself. She is cast somewhat as the loving dutiful mother, and I guess I have certain expectations that go along with that stereotype that she falls short of in my mind. Aeron and Victarion, however, are seasoned warriors from a culture whose economy is based on pillaging and theft, so I didn't have the same expectations of them.

I still stand by my assertion that Cersei is the very worst, however. :cool4:

[Daena the Defiant]

I still stand by my assertion that Cersei is the very worst, however. :cool4:

On that, I suspect you will find much more accord :)

[ElizaMartell]

so catelyn being not particularly nice to her husband's bastard makes her the most unlikeable character in the books?

that does seem like quite a leap to me.

Jon Snow (And I mean this fondly, I love him too) is somewhat of a fan favourite so Catelyn seems to be criticised heavily for not seeing how wonderful he is. Which is fair enough, I suppose but its still rather reactionary to me.

[LordsKissLover]

I don't see how her decisions could possibly have lead her or her son to death.

Yes. It was more like Robb's decision that led to their deaths.

[birdsong66]

I'm afraid you'd have to enlighten me on his entitlement issues as I haven't seen those.

Jon: "They hate me because I'm better than them!"

Tyrion: "They hate you because you think you are better than them."

Of course, this is Tyrion's statement. No doubt were it Catelyn's, the cruelty component would compound exponentially.

And, as for the Quarterly Journal of Economics, I'm afraid when I went to the Westeros library, that volume was already checked out.

[Evamitchelle]

Oh really, how could he want his birth mother? Must be a real bad guy! Especially since Cat certainly didn't act the surrogate mother, not that I blame her for that. I'm afraid you'd have to enlighten me on his entitlement issues as I haven't seen those.

I think Jon had terrible entitlement issues all the way through GoT. The previously mentioned feast incident for example, where he wasn't allowed to sit next to the King and Queen and gets very angry and decides to drown it in alcohol, leading him to crash into a serving girl. Then he keeps saying how no one told him what the NW was like (never mind the fact that Benjen told him he should wait because he was too young). The NW seems good enough for the Lord of Bear Island and the Lord of Winterfell's brother though, who both volunteered for it, yet Jon still thinks Ned was trying to get rid of him by sending him to the NW because he's a bastard. Then he's angry at all the other recruits because they're not as good as him and starts bullying them before Noye quickly calls him out on it. When he's assigned to the stewards he starts flipping out because he thinks he's better than every body else : "Do you take me for a servant ?" (which is doubly insulting since his friend has just been assigned to the stewards himself and is right next to him, though he didn't seem to consider it too low for his friend to be a steward). And when he hears about Ned and wants to go south and break his vows he starts telling off Maester Aemon that "no one knows how I feel" (paraphrasing), but Aemon is once again quick to call his BS.

To me Jon really comes off as a whiny brat in the first book. He was just lucky enough to be called on his BS almost immediately by the people around him (Benjen, Noye, Aemon, Sam etc.) so that he has now improved in that regard.

[Damar]

Nobody remembers the Blackfish's comments regarding Jon in AFFC? Catelyn seemed convinced Jon was some sort of evil mastermind who planned to kill her children and take Winterfell, meaning even willingly after taking the Black, she still saw him as a threat and hated him.

[The GRRumbler]

The assassin was sent by Joffrey, Jaime threw him from the tower

As far as im concerned throwing someone from a high tower is an attempt of murder, i meant jaime in that quote.

Is amazing the hate Catelyn gets, for saying something to Jon, and makin eventuel mistakes, while other characters threaten, beat, rape, kill and still get some simpathy.

One commenter before mentioned theons "remorse", and is that nearly enough after killing two children? I don't think so.

As i said before, Catelyn's actions pale before other character's, and she was always intent on doing what was best for her family, can't say the same about some other characters in this series. And her fate was just terrible, becoming an undead, mad with rage, i don't think she deserves this.

[headtrip_honey]

Nobody remembers the Blackfish's comments regarding Jon in AFFC? Catelyn seemed convinced Jon was some sort of evil mastermind who planned to kill her children and take Winterfell, meaning even willingly after taking the Black, she still saw him as a threat and hated him.

I'm not sure you mean AFFC.

Regarding Cat not wanting Jon to inherit - she had a fairly legitimate reason. Letting bastards inherit had very recently led to years of political turmoil in Westeros (Blackfyre Rebellion). Her son's claim was tenuous enough - having a bastard as his heir would not strengthen it, no matter how much Robb loved Jon.

ETA: I found the Blackfish quote you mentioned. "Catelyn never trusted the boy."

Hoo boy, them's fightin' words.