Catelyn: A hugely misunderstood character!

[headtrip_honey]

Good arguments, but the question arises what justice could Catelyn expect to find in the Vale

I suppose the point of it all was to bring Tyrion to justice because he - as Catelyn thought - ordered her son to be killed.

A Lannister crime against a Stark.

What jurisdiction could the Lord of the Vale - Lysa in this case as protector of the Vale possibly have in this issue?

There you do have a point, however Cat points out to the Blackfish that Lysa will want Tyrion to answer for Jon Arryn's murder as well. It is a stretch, especially given that Cat keeps trying to assert that Tyrion is HER prisoner, but she was between a rock and a hard place. She couldn't get to Winterfell in time, the Riverlands would too easily be attacked by the Lannisters (as Gregor Clegane proved), and Kings Landing was the viper's nest. The Eyrie was the nearest "safe" noble house she could take Tyrion to.

It was a lesser evil, unfortunately.

[littlespider]

Catelyn's capture of Tyrion in AGOT is seen by many as the event that triggered the war. But like I said before, she was only acting on the ground that Tyrion is a possible murderer and conspiring against her family and must be stopped.

Littlefinger. Started. The. War.

[Maggie the Cat]

"I'm not saying Cat was kind to Jon - she wasn't. But she wasn't cruel, either, until she was grief-stricken at Bran's bedside. All we have evidence of is that she was cold to Jon.

And it wasn't that Ned was "unfaithful" to her. Cat says that she expected that, given that he was off fighting. It was that he brought a bastard home (in fact, had Jon and his wetnurse installed at Winterfell before Cat, the Lady of Winterfell, and his heir, even got there), something unheard of for her, and that he scared her with his anger when she inquired after the mother. She says it was the one time that he truly frightened her, and Jon reminded her of that every time she saw him"

Making a child feel unwanted and like an outsider in his own home IS cruel. And what she said at Bran's bedside was exceedingly cruel. Once again you do NOT as a well adjusted and RESPONSIBLE adult who puts duty above all, take your anger for someone out on their child. That behavior is unacceptable.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

Well she left her two youngest children alone at Winterfell without a mother or father and they were imprisoned and in her eyes killed. She should have been there. She is also responisble for Ned going down to KL to the nest of Vipers that got him killed.

When I read and though Rickon was dead that hit me hard and I blamed her for that which is the main reason I don't like her. I also don't like reading POVs when they have an inferiority complex. For this reason I dislike her & Davos, especially Davos. The whole "I'm not worthy, I'm just a smugler" wore really thin, really quickly.

The whole Jon Snow treatment I can understand and though it's harsh I don't have a problem with it. This boy raised along side her son looks more like Ned than her children & even acts more like him than them. He is treated by Ned as equal to them and what if Robb was to get die prematurely? Whose to say Ned wouldn't prefer Jon to inherit over Bran? She was fearful for her children and saw him as an enemy for the future in terms of succession, in terms of family and of honour. If Ned died whilst her and Jon were both at Winterfell I think she'd have him killed no matter how young he would have been.

[ElizaMartell]

Making a child feel unwanted and like an outsider in his own home IS cruel. And what she said at Bran's bedside was exceedingly cruel. Once again you do NOT as a well adjusted and RESPONSIBLE adult who puts duty above all, take your anger for someone out on their child. That behavior is unacceptable.

How is what Catelyn did to Jon cruel? She was over the top when it came to Bran's bed side sure but from what I understand she tried to avoid Jon most of the time apart from observing when he bested his siblings. That to me doesn't sound like 'cruelty'. Your making it sound like she bullied Jon for the last 14 years of his life when she tried her best to avoid him. Just because she wasn't the all loving mother stereotype doesn't mean she was cruel to him.

[littlespider]

How is what Catelyn do to Jon cruel? She was over the top when it came to Bran's bed side sure but from what I understand she tried to avoid Jon most of the time apart from observing when he bested his siblings. That to me doesn't sound like 'cruelty'. Your making it sound like she bullied Jon for the last 14 years of his life when she tried her best to avoid him. Just because she wasn't the all loving mother stereotype doesn't mean she was cruel to him.

People say horrible, horrible, cruel things to others when they are in pain.

I don't have any problem with saying that what Catelyn said to Jon by Bran's bedside was cruel, but only if we look at every single other death-wish in the series, evaluate its circumstances, and judge it according to the same standards. I suspect Catelyn gets slammed for this while others get forgiven because their death wishes are articulated in a witty or snarky way (see, e.g., Tyrion and Jaime).

[Archmaester Marwin]

My only issue w/ Catelyn is her treatment of Jon Snow. I don't care of what she believed him to be the product. I don't care if she was hurt by Ned's "betrayal". She's an adult Jon is a child. You do not take your anger for someone out on their children. Either forgive Ned and move on, or save your anger for Ned and nurture the child. Here was a child in need of a good and strong mother figure. It was her opportunity to step up and show the kind of woman she really was. She did.

Exactly this. However she felt about Ned's betrayal, taking it out on Jon was as evil as it was petty. She also has no regard for the distinct LACK of evidence against Tyrion, (why WOULD he use his own dagger? absurd) which is bizarre, since you would think she wants to find her son's true killer. Her chapters are also very mopey. Releasing Jaime against Robb's will was not only treasonous, it was immensely stupid. I never didn't understand Catelyn's motivations or actions, I just strongly disapprove. In my opinion, she has easily earned her spot as the most reviled POV character (second of course, to Cersei)

[ElizaMartell]

I'm judging Catelyn's 'cruelty' to Jon with how other bastards are treated in the series. With that in mind I think that she was cruel to him ignores the circumstances and the esteem in which bastards are viewed in Westeros society. Sure you can say its somewhat unfair, but cruel?

Exactly this. However she felt about Ned's betrayal, taking it out on Jon was as evil as it was petty.

When did she ever take things out on Jon apart from that emotionally distressing moment when Bran was injured?

[Faceless Sam]

"I'm not saying Cat was kind to Jon - she wasn't. But she wasn't cruel, either, until she was grief-stricken at Bran's bedside. All we have evidence of is that she was cold to Jon.

And it wasn't that Ned was "unfaithful" to her. Cat says that she expected that, given that he was off fighting. It was that he brought a bastard home (in fact, had Jon and his wetnurse installed at Winterfell before Cat, the Lady of Winterfell, and his heir, even got there), something unheard of for her, and that he scared her with his anger when she inquired after the mother. She says it was the one time that he truly frightened her, and Jon reminded her of that every time she saw him"

Making a child feel unwanted and like an outsider in his own home IS cruel. And what she said at Bran's bedside was exceedingly cruel. Once again you do NOT as a well adjusted and RESPONSIBLE adult who puts duty above all, take your anger for someone out on their child. That behavior is unacceptable.

i guess not implementing the latest innovations in pedagogical science was rather negligent by her too. :P

[Evamitchelle]

Well she left her two youngest children alone at Winterfell without a mother or father and they were imprisoned and in her eyes killed. She should have been there. She is also responisble for Ned going down to KL to the nest of Vipers that got him killed.

When Catelyn left her children in Winterfell there were safe inside a massive castle that had never bee taken before, surrounded by people who loved them and that they'd known all their lives. She could have gotten back to Winterfell when Tyrion won his trial but she was busy trying to help her 14-year-old son fighting a war against the most powerful family in the Seven Kingdoms. She could actually make a difference with Robb (if he had had the sense to listen to her), while in Winterfell she could have achieved nothing. Even if she had been in Winterfell when Theon took the castle, what the hell would that have changed ?

Ned also happens to be a grown man who can make decisions on his own. They're usually bad ones but they're still his own. Cat didn't brainwash him into going to KG, he saw himself that it was needed of him if he wanted to help his BFF Robert and find out who killed his foster-dad, which is why he decided to go. The mere idea that Catelyn should be held responsible for Ned's decisions is just utterly ridiculous to me.

When I read and though Rickon was dead that hit me hard and I blamed her for that which is the main reason I don't like her. I also don't like reading POVs when they have an inferiority complex. For this reason I dislike her & Davos, especially Davos. The whole "I'm not worthy, I'm just a smugler" wore really thin, really quickly.

Are you serious ? She was the one who told Robb not to send Theon away and keep him close, it's Robb who went against her advice and enabled Theon taking Winterfell. If you want to blame people you should blame Theon first (the one who actually took the castle you know), Rodrik second (because she left him in charge of the castle and her sons' safety and he left the castle grossly undermanned because Theon played him like a flute) and Robb last because he was the stupid one who sent a hostage back to his family.

[Evamitchelle]

Exactly this. However she felt about Ned's betrayal, taking it out on Jon was as evil as it was petty. She also has no regard for the distinct LACK of evidence against Tyrion, (why WOULD he use his own dagger? absurd) which is bizarre, since you would think she wants to find her son's true killer. Her chapters are also very mopey. Releasing Jaime against Robb's will was not only treasonous, it was immensely stupid. I never didn't understand Catelyn's motivations or actions, I just strongly disapprove. In my opinion, she has easily earned her spot as the most reviled POV character (second of course, to Cersei)

She deserves to be reviled more than Theon or Aeron or Melisandre or Victarion ? I'm side-eyeing you right now.

As to the Tyrion affair, Catelyn only asked for justice and a fair trial. It's not her fault Lysa had other plans.

[Archmaester Marwin]

People say horrible, horrible, cruel things to others when they are in pain.

I don't have any problem with saying that what Catelyn said to Jon by Bran's bedside was cruel, but only if we look at every single other death-wish in the series, evaluate its circumstances, and judge it according to the same standards. I suspect Catelyn gets slammed for this while others get forgiven because their death wishes are articulated in a witty or snarky way (see, e.g., Tyrion and Jaime).

I totally disagree. If you can name a time where Tyrion or Jaime said anything that would be remotely analogous to what Catelyn said to Jon without the witticism, I'd love to hear it. Jon is a child under her care...witticism in her verbal abuse would have made it more horrible, not less.

[Evamitchelle]

"Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle". This lovely statement was made by Tyrion to his 12-year-old captive bride in front of half the court. And that's just the first one that popped into my mind. And it's witty ! Which would make it even worse according to your standards.

[PatrickStormborn]

Exactly this. However she felt about Ned's betrayal, taking it out on Jon was as evil as it was petty. She also has no regard for the distinct LACK of evidence against Tyrion, (why WOULD he use his own dagger? absurd) which is bizarre, since you would think she wants to find her son's true killer. Her chapters are also very mopey. Releasing Jaime against Robb's will was not only treasonous, it was immensely stupid. I never didn't understand Catelyn's motivations or actions, I just strongly disapprove. In my opinion, she has easily earned her spot as the most reviled POV character (second of course, to Cersei)

They're the two most reviled POVs?

What about Victarion, the man who beat his wife to death because she slept with his brother? What about Jaime, who threw an innocent child out of a window? Or how about Theon, who betrayed his only friend and invaded his childhood home? And what about Tyrion, the misogynstic kinslayer who talks of raping his own sister?

Those are just a few examples, but I think it's fair to say that they're all much, much worse than Catelyn (and I'd say that most of them are worse than Cersei). But, of course, those four characters are "badasses", and Cat and Cersei are evil sluts, right?

[David Selig]

I totally disagree. If you can name a time where Tyrion or Jaime said anything that would be remotely analogous to what Catelyn said to Jon without the witticism, I'd love to hear it. Jon is a child under her care...witticism in her verbal abuse would have made it more horrible, not less.

Are you serious? How about these:

“Whatever happens to her happens to Tommen as well, and that includes the beatings and rapes.”

"You’ll want your child, I expect. I’ll send him to you when he’s born. With a trebuchet.”

That's just off the top of my head.

BTW, Jon is not "a child under her care", unless you mean in the same way as every other Northerner due to Cat being the wife of a great Lord. Nobody expected of her to carry for him and be any kind of stepmother.

[Ghost Rider]

How is what Catelyn do to Jon cruel? She was over the top when it came to Bran's bed side sure but from what I understand she tried to avoid Jon most of the time apart from observing when he bested his siblings. That to me doesn't sound like 'cruelty'. Your making it sound like she bullied Jon for the last 14 years of his life when she tried her best to avoid him. Just because she wasn't the all loving mother stereotype doesn't mean she was cruel to him.

Jon climbed the steps slowly, trying not to think that this might be the last time ever. (...) He reached the landing and stood for a long moment, afraid. Ghost nuzzled at his hand. He took courage from that. He straightened, and entered the room. (...) Not once did she leave the room. So Jon had stayed away. He stood in the door for a moment, afraid to speak, afraid to come closer. (...)

Part of him wanted only to flee, but he knew that if he did he might never see Bran again. He took a nervous step into the room. “Please,” he said. Something cold moved in her eyes. “I told you to leave,” she said. “We don’t want you here.” Once that would have sent him running. Once that might even have made him cry. Now it only made him angry. He would be a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch soon, and face worse dangers than Catelyn Tully Stark. “He’s my brother,” he said.

These descriptions in Jon's chapter imply that he expected no good. So I think she indeed bullied Jon for the last 14 years. Why else would he be so afraid?

And that's all before the "It should have been you" quote which isn't what made my heart to go out to Jon in that moment. That was just the last drop. And I think it's indeed cruel to hurt a young boy so thoroughly that he would run crying. She doesn't need to beat him up to hurt him like that. Actually I think beating up might be easier to bear, because you can hate that person then. Jon doesn't hate Cat, he understands why she's acting the way she does. It's because he's bad, he's a bastard, he's a stain to Ned's honour (which he is ever ready to defend!). And her emphasizing the differences between Jon and his siblings never let him forget just how inferior he is to them. And it's all completely justified of course, because he's worthless, a creature born from lust, prone to treachery.

Her looking at him like she grudged him every bite (some Jon chapter, don't know which) is a more subtle kind of cruelty. Her behaviour toward him tells Jon every day that he doesn't belong to Winterfell, that he has to leave as soon as he is a man. His siblings can't make up for it, even though they clearly love and admire him. But all of them are very aware of the distance between them and Jon, that he isn't their "real brother". And yes, that includes even Arya. Ned I imagine as distant, he does not seem to be a person to show his feelings. He would be afraid to hurt Cat too. Whichever way you turn it, Jon's feelings on the matter are very obvious: he doesn't feel at home at the only home he had. Which is very cruel.

[headtrip_honey]

I totally disagree. If you can name a time where Tyrion or Jaime said anything that would be remotely analogous to what Catelyn said to Jon without the witticism, I'd love to hear it. Jon is a child under her care...witticism in her verbal abuse would have made it more horrible, not less.

Jaime says, to Edmure Tully, someone not a threat to him at all:

"Your wife may whelp before that. You'll want your child, I expect. I'll send him to you when he's born. With a trebuchet."

Yes, they were at war, but did Jaime really need to threaten to trebuchet an infant? Hell no. He'd already made it clear how outmanned Riverrun was.

But Catelyn's grief-stricken statement is so much worse.

ETA: David Selig beat me to it.

[Archmaester Marwin]

She deserves to be reviled more than Theon or Aeron or Melisandre or Victarion ? I'm side-eyeing you right now.

As to the Tyrion affair, Catelyn only asked for justice and a fair trial. It's not her fault Lysa had other plans.

Okay, you have me on Theon, but only because of the deaths of the miller's sons, which he has shown a TON of remorse for. None of the others mentioned have the same reckless disregard for innocence, except maybe Melissandre and her whole Kingsblood/Edric Storm thing. At least she has the massively broad scale altruistic intentions of rebirthing Azor Azai. She is not cruel to innocent people out of ignorance, grudges and pettiness.

Fair trial in the Eyrie? lol. She knew (rightfully) that a trial would be biased no matter where she went, so she went somewhere she knew it would be a forgone conclusion in her favour. But what right did she arrest him in the first place? Weak evidence at best, and rash hatred based on hearsay formed most of her opinion, but opinion it should have remained. Lady of the North, arresting another noble of a great house in the Riverlands? This move was extremely reckless. She should have known it would bring the enmity of Tywin Lannister on her and hers, and it sure as hell did.

[ElizaMartell]

These descriptions in Jon's chapter imply that he expected no good. So I think she indeed bullied Jon for the last 14 years. Why else would he be so afraid?

Thats incredibly subjective. It can equally be argued that Cat had previously made it clear she didn't want anything to do with him. So how you can take these few sentences and compound she has somehow emotionally abused Jon for the last 14 years is incredible. You're simply projecting incidences that simply didn't happen. Was Cat harsh to Jon? Yes. But to somehow draw out that she has bullied him with no other indication from this chapter onwards is more than a bit of a stretch.

[Archmaester Marwin]

So Tyrion says something off colour about having sex with his WIFE, which he DIDN'T do when confronted with the reality of actually traumatizing Sansa. Oh and he threatens Tommen to Cersei to protect another innocent, which again, does not happen.

Jaime threatens Edmure with cruelty to an innocent, but again it's only a threat. Sure he pushed Bran out of the window, but only because if he hadn't his own three children would quite likely have been put to the sword later that afternoon if he hadn't. Do you doubt Robert's wrath?

My revulsion for characters is based mainly on if I understand their actions and how petty and selfish I deem them to be. It's a gut feeling really. You don't have to agree with me.

As an aside, do you think even Victarion's wife thought she would survive being caught cheating on him? She took a massive and stupid risk in the process of dishonoring herself and him.