Catelyn: A hugely misunderstood character!

[Evamitchelle]

He's fourteen, though. At that age, most of us were to some degree whiny and entitled and inconsiderate and thought the whole world was ~omg SO UNFAIR. I certainly did. I think it's to Jon's credit that, every single time he was called out on his BS, he didn't stomp off in a huff and pout about how ~no one understood him~, but rather listened to what was said, reevaluated his behavior, and afterward behaved better because of it.

The problem I had with his entitlement was that every time it was called out in one domain it resurfaced later in another. And it goes on from the first of his chapters almost until his last : in the first he's telling Tyrion off for trying to give him some advice because he can't possibly know anything about being a bastard, in one of his last he's angry with Aemon trying to give him some advice because he believes he's the only one who ever had family at war outside the NW. When Noye tells him he's a bully he stops being a bully but his entitlement shows up a few chapters later when he's named to the stewards. And that's what happens all throughout the first book. To his credit he did keep his entitlement sense in check in later books, but in the first book he's constantly being angry about something. Even when his brothers spell it out clearly for him that their lives were probably much worse than his (like Daeron telling him he was sent to the NW for bedding a highborn maid who called it rape when they were discovered) he still has these random bursts of anger at the "unfairness" of his own life.

[ARYa_Nym]

...what rather cutting remarks, if I may be so bold?

ETA: And I looked through all of Jon and Catelyn's chapters before Jon goes to the Wall. Nothing.

The only thing that even BORDERS on "cutting" wasn't even said to Jon, but to Ned, when she said that she would not have Jon stay at Winterfell in Ned's absence.

They might be talking about the I need no absolution from you bastard.

Let's try it this way: Theon was a ward at Winterfell, raised with highborn Stark children, just as Jon was. Yet, it is presumed that he murders both Bran and Rickon, seizes Winterfell, and names himself prince. Did the fact that he warded at Winterfell prevent his future actions? And, moreover, were his actions not a very real threat or fear of Catelyn's, and Ned's to some extent, prior to Robb sending him to the Iron Islands?

Theon was a ward and hostage in their home so I don't think it's out of the ordinary that he turned on them one day. It was wrong for him to try and kill Bran and Rickon but I understood his need to try and please his father that he was taken from even if he did not do the right thing. I know Cat compared Jon to Theon:

"If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe." "Jon would never harm a son of mine." "No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?"

But Theon had a reason to hate the Starks.

But anyways I dislike Cat for freeing Jamie and I don't like her personality in her POVs. I felt that both Ned and Cat did not understand their enemies too which was annoying so I wanted them to die.

[The GRRumbler]

:rofl: :lmao: typos i love em!

that was a sarcastic comment genius.

[headtrip_honey]

They might be talking about the I need no absolution from you bastard.

Perhaps, but I lump it with the "It should have been you" because she was grief-stricken. Jon himself seems to recognize this, because he never thinks "wow, she was so mean." All he thinks is that he had never seen her cry before. He recognizes that she was a mother in anguish, and this tells me that this was NOT her usual demeanor with him (which Martin himself confirmed).

[Lemon Cake]

All in all, I blame Ned for this atrocious situation. He could have just easily given baby Jon to one of his household knights and his wife and tell him to raise Jon inside Winterfell - Jon would safe and warm and cared for, have a suitable surrogate mother figure and Catelyn and House Tully wouldn't be so affronted.

While I don't think it absolves Catelyn of her less-than-stellar behavior, I do agree that the blame for the situation ultimately lies at Ned's door. He handled it terribly and put both Catelyn and Jon in a really unfair position that was never going to turn out well. Epic fail, Ned. Epic fail.

The problem I had with his entitlement was that every time it was called out in one domain it resurfaced later in another. And it goes on from the first of his chapters almost until his last : in the first he's telling Tyrion off for trying to give him some advice because he can't possibly know anything about being a bastard, in one of his last he's angry with Aemon trying to give him some advice because he believes he's the only one who ever had family at war outside the NW. When Noye tells him he's a bully he stops being a bully but his entitlement shows up a few chapters later when he's named to the stewards. And that's what happens all throughout the first book. To his credit he did keep his entitlement sense in check in later books, but in the first book he's constantly being angry about something. Even when his brothers spell it out clearly for him that their lives were probably much worse than his (like Daeron telling him he was sent to the NW for bedding a highborn maid who called it rape when they were discovered) he still has these random bursts of anger at the "unfairness" of his own life.

But... he was fourteen. He did grow out of it and, as you said, reined in that sense of entitlement in later books. I dunno, I guess it just never bothered me much, because it seemed like such typical teenage behavior. I can see why it annoys others, though.

[ARYa_Nym]

Perhaps, but I lump it with the "It should have been you" because she was grief-stricken. Jon himself seems to recognize this, because he never thinks "wow, she was so mean." All he thinks is that he had never seen her cry before. He recognizes that she was a mother in anguish, and this tells me that this was NOT her usual demeanor with him (which Martin himself confirmed).

I think she took a similar attitude that Theon did towards him although Theon probably made snide comments from time to time.

[headtrip_honey]

But... he was fourteen. He did grow out of it and, as you said, reined in that sense of entitlement in later books. I dunno, I guess it just never bothered me much, because it seemed like such typical teenage behavior. I can see why it annoys others, though.

Tbh, it was his attitude that made me not really care for his character. I'm going to admit a huge bias here: I throw pity parties for myself all the time, and I HATE this aspect of my personality. Therefore, I can't stand reading about it in fictional characters.

I will admit that after AGoT it got better, and you're right, he was only a teenager, so while I'm not saying "OMG, I CAN'T STAND JON WHAT A WHINER" it did put me off his character a bit and I've never been able to enjoy his chapters the same way others do.

[Evamitchelle]

But... he was fourteen. He did grow out of it and, as you said, reined in that sense of entitlement in later books. I dunno, I guess it just never bothered me much, because it seemed like such typical teenage behavior. I can see why it annoys others, though.

I'm not saying it makes him evil or bad or anything. I made the post because one poster said they couldn't see any entitlement issue in Jon and I disagreed.

[ARYa_Nym]

Then he keeps saying how no one told him what the NW was like (never mind the fact that Benjen told him he should wait because he was too young). The NW seems good enough for the Lord of Bear Island and the Lord of Winterfell's brother though, who both volunteered for it, yet Jon still thinks Ned was trying to get rid of him by sending him to the NW because he's a bastard.

IDK if Ned wanted to get rid of him but when he said that he would be mistreated in the South for being a bastard that was a bold-faced lie. We've seen bastards advance themselves in the story. Plus, since some of the losers of Robert's Rebellion had to go to the Wall they would bring up Jon's bastard status to insult him.

No one did tell him what it was like. He thought it was an honorable place and didn't know that it had deteriorated so much. It's basically a dumping ground and a prison.

Benjen joined but GRRM said that we would find out why he joined so I don't think he joined for the same reason as Jon. He seemed to regret it as well.

[brashcandy]

I think Jon had terrible entitlement issues all the way through GoT. The previously mentioned feast incident for example, where he wasn't allowed to sit next to the King and Queen and gets very angry and decides to drown it in alcohol, leading him to crash into a serving girl.

I keep hearing this, but it simply isn't true. Jon is actually relieved not to be seated with the King and Queen.

There were times - not many, but a few - when Jon Snow was glad he was bastard. As he filled his wine cup once more from a passing flagon, it struck him that this might be one of them. He settled back in his place on the bench among the younger squires and drank. The sweet, fruity taste of the summerwine filled his mouth and brought a smile to his lips.... And he was finding that he had a man's thirst, to the racous delight of the youths around him, who urged him on every time he drained a glass. They were fine company, and Jon relished the stories they were telling, tales of battle and bedding and the hunt.

In order words, Jon is being your typical teenager, glad to be unsupervised and taking advantage of it. He is not getting drunk in anger over being slighted one bit. He does get angry later on in the conversation with Benjen, when he won't take his desire to join the Watch seriously and tells him that he needs to grow older and father a few bastards on his own. Jon then reacts angrily, saying he will never father a bastard, and that's when he lurches into the serving girl.

Then he keeps saying how no one told him what the NW was like (never mind the fact that Benjen told him he should wait because he was too young).

Telling someone they're too young to do something is a far cry from actually explaining the nature of the situation. No one truly prepared Jon for the Watch, and he had every right to feel disappointed and upset.

The NW seems good enough for the Lord of Bear Island and the Lord of Winterfell's brother though, who both volunteered for it, yet Jon still thinks Ned was trying to get rid of him by sending him to the NW because he's a bastard.

This is the truth. Ned was trying to get rid of him, maybe not maliciously, but his wife had declared that Jon was no longer welcome in Winterfell after Ned left, and Ned admitted that he couldn't take him down South. He wasn't thrilled at the prospect of the Wall, but he realised it was the easiest way out of his predicament.

Then he's angry at all the other recruits because they're not as good as him and starts bullying them before Noye quickly calls him out on it. When he's assigned to the stewards he starts flipping out because he thinks he's better than every body else : "Do you take me for a servant ?" (which is doubly insulting since his friend has just been assigned to the stewards himself and is right next to him, though he didn't seem to consider it too low for his friend to be a steward).

Ok, so Jon behaves like a jerk a few times and then quickly corrects his behaviour. Can we say the same for Cat, who keeps up her hatred for him for 14 yrs? Who's the child and who's the adult. And the reason he didn't want to be a steward was because he was the best swordsman of all the recruits. He made for a natural ranger, and felt that his talents would be wasted as a steward.

And when he hears about Ned and wants to go south and break his vows he starts telling off Maester Aemon that "no one knows how I feel" (paraphrasing), but Aemon is once again quick to call his BS.

Again, Jon learns differently. He may tend to sometimes believe he has it worse than anyone, but how many of us can claim such enlightened perspectives when we're going through our own problems. Did Cat ever stop to think that Cersei had it worse than her with Robert fathering 16 bastards? Or did she simply focus on the fact that Ned brought Jon home?

To me Jon really comes off as a whiny brat in the first book. He was just lucky enough to be called on his BS almost immediately by the people around him (Benjen, Noye, Aemon, Sam etc.) so that he has now improved in that regard.

Well, I hope that others got a fuller appreciation of Jon's character. He comes off as a very mature, kind and normal boy to me. He's the one to advise Bran on holding his pony steady when they go to see the execution; he tells Ned that the direwolves were sent for his 5 trueborn children; he gives Needle to Arya; doesn't let Catelyn's disdain stop him from saying goodbye to Bran, and then doesn't let Robb know what it is she said to him in the room. It's no surprise that Jon becomes the kind of leader we see in the later books. He was showing many admirable qualities from the get go.

[headtrip_honey]

IDK if Ned wanted to get rid of him but when he said that he would be mistreated in the South for being a bastard that was a bold-faced lie. We've seen bastards advance themselves in the story.

While I think Ned was exaggerating the treatment Jon would receive in order to keep him away from Robert, do you REALLY think that Cersei Lannister would sit idly by while Ned's bastard ran around? At the very least, he wouldn't be allowed to keep company with the princes and princess, which would cut him off from his own siblings a considerable amount. I'm sure there would be snide remarks as well.

[Grail King]

I'm not a huge fan of Catelyn and I agree that some of her decisions have been regrettable and even resulted in her and Robb's deaths.<SNIP>

I don't know if this point has been mentioned before in this forum, but it is my belief that Catelyn is the example of a character who is anxiety-driven and in this ruthless game of betrayal and death was driven to the point of madness (clawing and gnawing at her own cheeks after seeing Roose Bolton kill Robb). Death has made her vengeful and furious.

I see Catelyn as a victim of her circumstances who tried to do the right thing and therefore exposed her weaknesses to her enemies. She definitely has her flaws but that doesn't mean she deserved to get what she got.

To sum it up, this war would've happened anyway, with or without Catelyn capturing Tyrion, it was only a matter of time. I hope the other readers see through it. Lashing out at Catelyn or judging her without a cause cannot console the grief one feels about the present status of the Starks or the realm as a whole. Every single character has made a mistake and will continue to do so. Only some (LF and Varys) are intelligent enough to see the weaknesses of others and themselves and thus, are well prepared for what is to come.

The only thing I saw that she did wrong was arresting Tyrion she should have got the info she had to Ned and go back home, I think the results would still have been the same due to the fact that both LF and Varys are the two pulling all the strings .

Robb's death was a prickly old man who had to prove something to a 16 year old who was wounded under the influence and made a huge mistake ( I still say his advisors were lax ).

I for one don't hate her I hope she takes out any (guilty) Freys, Lannisters and Boltons that Lord so Fat to sit a Horse can't get and sends them to him for pie fillings.

ETA: I forgot freeing Jamie, I could see Tywin setting the girls free for Jamie but at the same time have them shadowed and then Tywin would just take out the whole family ala Castemere, by letting Jamie go she did put her son in a bad predicament with his banner men and lost a bargining chip.

[ARYa_Nym]

While I think Ned was exaggerating the treatment Jon would receive in order to keep him away from Robert, do you REALLY think that Cersei Lannister would sit idly by while Ned's bastard ran around? At the very least, he wouldn't be allowed to keep company with the princes and princess, which would cut him off from his own siblings a considerable amount. I'm sure there would be snide remarks as well.

That's really no different than what happened at the feast of Winterfell. IDK why Ned was acting like the Wall was the only place where he could do well for himself. I'm sure that Jon has heard snide comments before too. I know Rickard Karstark told Alys that Jon was sullen because he was a bastard so it wasn't only Catelyn who had the prejudice.

[headtrip_honey]

That's really no different than what happened at the feast of Winterfell. IDK why Ned was acting like the Wall was the only place where he could do well for himself. I'm sure that Jon has heard snide comments before too. I know Rickard Karstark told Alys that Jon was sullen because he was a bastard so it wasn't only Catelyn who had the prejudice.

But they would be in Cersei's territory. She was a guest at Winterfell; there wasn't much she could do.

But my point is, he'd lived in relative isolation in Winterfell, where he was treated (relatively) well. Switch it up to Kings Landing, where he wouldn't hold as high a status, where people are much more ruthless - he would have been miserable.

[ARYa_Nym]

But they would be in Cersei's territory. She was a guest at Winterfell; there wasn't much she could do.

But my point is, he'd lived in relative isolation in Winterfell, where he was treated (relatively) well. Switch it up to Kings Landing, where he wouldn't hold as high a status, where people are much more ruthless - he would have been miserable.

KL isn't the only place in the South though. Jon didn't need to go there. Wherever he would have gone it would still be better than the NW.

EDIT: Unrelated but I have seen comments before that Ned sent Jon to the Wall to protect him. No where would protect him if his parentage was found out. The Wall lessons the likelihood but if the wrong person were to find out, or if Tyrion was just a bit too clever all would be needed is a raven sent and it's goodbye to Jon.

[headtrip_honey]

KL isn't the only place in the South though. Jon didn't need to go there. Wherever he would have gone it would still be better than the NW.

You think Southron lords would've been clamoring to foster Ned Stark's bastard? Hardly.

Ned wanted to keep him under his protection - if Benjen hadn't been in the NW, I doubt Ned would have sent him there.

The NW was a.) something Jon had begged for, b.) somewhere Ned's family had influence and c.) somewhere Jon could rise to prestige despite his bastard status. I don't blame Ned for thinking it was the best solution under the circumstances.

[wyman's cook]

characters ages aren't to be taken seriously in this series..cause they just don't matter..so Robb being said to be 14 but actually acting as if he were 24 and some pages later as if he were 10 and then again as if he were 50 etc etc just makes ages to not have a particular meaning..at least when it comes to an overall appreciation of the characters..hope that makes some sense..anyway

regarding the why Cat releasing Jaime made me hate her :

we get introduced to the Starks as a really honorable family, we get the feeling that Robb has been pretty much "groomed" as he ought to, as a leader, a war starts, we see some great strategical feats and leadership traits from Robb and all of a sudden Robb and Cat make a giant leap into the pit of stupidity, form which they never got back out again ! Only poor, stupid, egocentric, selfish, braindead decision making!!!! WTF got to them ???

as to the guy that said the "don't feed the troll" refering to me (i guess)..my dear friend, we're talking about fictional persons and situations..

as a reader, i just came to hate these two clowns of fictional characters that not only caused the deaths of hundred or thousands others ony to maybe save 2 girls but also their own deaths cause of mere stupidity..so who the fuck cares ? i got my kicks out of reading this great story making and i'm pretty sure that that's exactly what the writer wanted:

to make us, initially sympathize with them and their cause, only to "hate" em afterwards cause of their egoistic stupidity! Robb the clown, that beheaded one of his most loyal bannermen, Rickard Karstark, cause he "killed his honor" (while Robb killed who knows how many, when he sent them as bate at the greenfork, cause he wanted to play king and later on spat on his whole campaign planning only cause he got a bonner ) only to have his clown mother , release the Kingslayer behind his back...etc etc..great story-writing and great empathy-creation!

first you like em, then you "hate" em..but who do you really hate ? the "bad guys" that planned the RW.. brilliant!

[ARYa_Nym]

You think Southron lords would've been clamoring to foster Ned Stark's bastard? Hardly.

Ned wanted to keep him under his protection - if Benjen hadn't been in the NW, I doubt Ned would have sent him there.

The NW was a.) something Jon had begged for, b.) somewhere Ned's family had influence and c.) somewhere Jon could rise to prestige despite his bastard status. I don't blame Ned for thinking it was the best solution under the circumstances.

a) Yes, without knowing the current state of the NW. I'm sure Ned wasn't unaware of it.

B) The Starks control the North. Ned should be able to find work for him in the North and have a trusted bannerman keep an eye on him.

c) It's not the only place where he could do that. & in other places he would be able to have a family of his own.

[headtrip_honey]

a) Yes, without knowing the current state of the NW. I'm sure Ned wasn't unaware of it.

B) The Starks control the North. Ned should be able to find work for him in the North and have a trusted bannerman keep an eye on him.

c) It's not the only place where he could do that. & in other places he would be able to have a family of his own.

Well, I disagree. I don't think there was a REALISTIC place for Jon that would have been better.

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, I disagree. I don't think there was a REALISTIC place for Jon that would have been better.

I don't think there's anything unrealistic for him to go up to some bannerman and be like I could work for you. I have skills in this, this, and this. Ned could also put pressure on the person he asks.

Plus bastards can be knights if he were to go to the South.