Catelyn: A hugely misunderstood character!

[wyman's cook]

ah and yes. the RW would most probably not have happened if Jaime was still in a Stark prison

[brashcandy]

While I think Ned was exaggerating the treatment Jon would receive in order to keep him away from Robert, do you REALLY think that Cersei Lannister would sit idly by while Ned's bastard ran around? At the very least, he wouldn't be allowed to keep company with the princes and princess, which would cut him off from his own siblings a considerable amount. I'm sure there would be snide remarks as well.

The issue with Cersei is that she's borderline evil, and has a hellava dangerous secret in that her own children are bastards. But what is Cat's excuse? Jealousy? The belief that he'll mess with her children's inheritance when she has five trueborn children, and Ned isn't going to disinherit one of them?

a) Yes, without knowing the current state of the NW. I'm sure Ned wasn't unaware of it.

B) The Starks control the North. Ned should be able to find work for him in the North and have a trusted bannerman keep an eye on him.

c) It's not the only place where he could do that. & in other places he would be able to have a family of his own.

All this is true, and I don't think that Ned would have allowed Jon to join the Watch if Cat had said he could remain at home. He would have told Jon no, but he relents because it is what the boy wants, and he knows that he cannot take him South. I blame Ned for a lot of this nonsense with Jon, but declaring that she was basically kicking Jon out of the House does not make me think kindly towards Catelyn.

[headtrip_honey]

I don't think there's anything unrealistic for him to go up to some bannerman and be like I could work for you. I have skills in this, this, and this. Ned could also put pressure on the person he asks.

Plus bastards can be knights if he were to go to the South.

What skills? He knows how to fight, he doesn't have a trade or anything. And again, going to the South is unrealistic. The Starks have no sway there, and it's highly doubtful that anyone would take him in out of the goodness of their hearts. Now, a realistic option for him would have been to go to Storm's End. Ned was friendly with Renly, and I'm sure Robert would have accomodated....but Ned wanted to keep Jon as far away from Robert as possible, for his own safety. So the Wall it was.

[headtrip_honey]

The issue with Cersei is that she's borderline evil, and has a hellava dangerous secret in that her own children are bastards. But what is Cat's excuse? Jealousy? The belief that he'll mess with her children's inheritance when she has five trueborn children, and Ned isn't going to disinherit one of them?

My point was merely that Kings Landing would have been a terrible place for Jon. That is all.

[ARYa_Nym]

What skills? He knows how to fight, he doesn't have a trade or anything. And again, going to the South is unrealistic. The Starks have no sway there, and it's highly doubtful that anyone would take him in out of the goodness of their hearts. Now, a realistic option for him would have been to go to Storm's End. Ned was friendly with Renly, and I'm sure Robert would have accomodated....but Ned wanted to keep Jon as far away from Robert as possible, for his own safety. So the Wall it was.

Gendry wasn't born with skills. He become an apprentice first. Jon was young enough to develop skills.

He's the hand of the King though so he could use his closeness to Robert in the South to have some sway. I doubt every bastard who becomes a knight has some High Lord to vouch for them.

[brashcandy]

My point was merely that Kings Landing would have been a terrible place for Jon. That is all.

Yes, but as Arya_Nym said, KL is not the end all and be all of the South. The point is that Ned did not come up with the Wall as an option for Jon. In fact he was pretty much against it. It was Luwin who then declared that a solution could be found when Ned and Cat were having the argument.

[headtrip_honey]

Gendry wasn't born with skills. He become an apprentice first. Jon was young enough to develop skills.

He's the hand of the King though so he could use his closeness to Robert in the South to have some sway. I doubt every bastard who becomes a knight has some High Lord to vouch for them.

You're right, Jon could have been apprenticed.

But no offense, he probably would have complained about that too. He was raised like "a little lordling" (as Donal Noye put it), and an apprenticeship would have been just as big a step down. He also didn't WANT to be apprenticed, so he also would have felt forced into it.

There really was no "good" choice here.

[ARYa_Nym]

You're right, Jon could have been apprenticed.

But no offense, he probably would have complained about that too. He was raised like "a little lordling" (as Donal Noye put it), and an apprenticeship would have been just as big a step down. He also didn't WANT to be apprenticed, so he also would have felt forced into it.

There really was no "good" choice here.

My point was there were better choices. He wasn't allowed to go on rangings right when he got to the Wall either. Jon would just have to suck it up and deal. I think making it seem like the NW is the only place to go is faulty. Wouldn't all the Northern bastards be there then? If lesser lords can provide for their bastard sons then there's no excuse for Ned not being able to come up with a better option.

[headtrip_honey]

Yes, but as Arya_Nym said, KL is not the end all and be all of the South. The point is that Ned did not come up with the Wall as an option for Jon. In fact he was pretty much against it. It was Luwin who then declared that a solution could be found when Ned and Cat were having the argument.

Yes, and I've disputed that there was a realistic option other than the Wall. I just don't think it could've been done on short notice, with little influence in the South. I really don't think Robert would have given him much help, and Ned wanted to keep Jon under Stark protection (Benjen being at the wall was a big bonus).

As I said above, I don't think there was a realistic solution that Jon would have been terribly happy with.

[David Selig]

Ned could arrange for Jon to become a household knight at a Southern lord, he was the Hand, and Jon was a pretty good fighter, trained by th best teachers in the North. Or arrange for him a nice position in the City watch of KL - one of the Tyrells did that for his bastards. There were plenty of opportunities for Jon better than the NW at its current sorry state. Later on with ned's help Jon could've even married a minor noblewoman - Walder Rivers did, and as we saw with Alayne Stone, with enough money even high nobles can be persuaded to marry bastards.

IMO Ned was simply lying wwith the whole "they'll never accept him in the South" because he was still cautious of someone adding the pieces together and recognizing the "R=L=J" truth.Either that or he was completely clueless about the South despite having spent almost 10 years there.

[headtrip_honey]

My point was there were better choices. He wasn't allowed to go on rangings right when he got to the Wall either. Jon would just have to suck it up and deal. I think making it seem like the NW is the only place to go is faulty. Wouldn't all the Northern bastards be there then? If lesser lords can provide for their bastard sons then there's no excuse for Ned not being able to come up with a better option.

I'm not saying it was the only place to go - I'm saying that under the circumstances it was the best option (for Jon's safety, not just his happiness), or at the very least no worse than the other options.

By the way, the text makes it pretty clear that Ned's treatment of his bastard is pretty abnormal. Most would have been apprenticed, like Gendry, or found a suitable position.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. I've said all I can, but we're never going to agree.

[Evamitchelle]

I keep hearing this, but it simply isn't true. Jon is actually relieved not to be seated with the King and Queen.

In order words, Jon is being your typical teenager, glad to be unsupervised and taking advantage of it. He is not getting drunk in anger over being slighted one bit. He does get angry later on in the conversation with Benjen, when he won't take his desire to join the Watch seriously and tells him that he needs to grow older and father a few bastards on his own. Jon then reacts angrily, saying he will never father a bastard, and that's when he lurches into the serving girl.

Jon keeps telling himself that he's happy not to be at the King's table but his actions indicate a different thing to me. Just the fact that he keeps saying "he told himself that he was fortunate in that too" makes it seem to me as if he's trying to feel happy about it but not succeeding very well. His answer to Benjen goes against the happiness sentiment as well : "Most times," Jon answered in a flat voice. "But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to sit a bastard among them". Benjen certainly doesn't understand that sentence as an expression of Jon's gratitude at being seated with the lower-born people.

Telling someone they're too young to do something is a far cry from actually explaining the nature of the situation. No one truly prepared Jon for the Watch, and he had every right to feel disappointed and upset.

Benjen tries quite a bit too tell Jon to wait until he's older : "The Wall is a harsh place for a boy", "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son". Ned probably should have talked to him as well, but I suppose he had other priorities in mind. Like having his young son thrown for a tower and in danger of death and having to become Robert's Hand to try and unveil his foster father's murderers.

This is the truth. Ned was trying to get rid of him, maybe not maliciously, but his wife had declared that Jon was no longer welcome in Winterfell after Ned left, and Ned admitted that he couldn't take him down South. He wasn't thrilled at the prospect of the Wall, but he realised it was the easiest way out of his predicament.

Most highborn boys are fostered out anyway : Jaime was a squire to Crakehall, Ned and Robert were with Jon Arryn, Edric Storm with Renly etc. Anyway, all the people who knew about him going to the Wall thought he'd be good for him : Ned reflects that a bastard can rise high in the NW, Cat thinks that he'll kinda become Benjen's son that way and thinks it's a good thing. Honestly though I really believe that Ned still thinks the NW to be a prestigious order of which you should be proud of.

Ok, so Jon behaves like a jerk a few times and then quickly corrects his behaviour. Can we say the same for Cat, who keeps up her hatred for him for 14 yrs? Who's the child and who's the adult. And the reason he didn't want to be a steward was because he was the best swordsman of all the recruits. He made for a natural ranger, and felt that his talents would be wasted as a steward.

Again, Jon learns differently. He may tend to sometimes believe he has it worse than anyone, but how many of us can claim such enlightened perspectives when we're going through our own problems. Did Cat ever stop to think that Cersei had it worse than her with Robert fathering 16 bastards? Or did she simply focus on the fact that Ned brought Jon home?

Why are you making it an issue of Cat vs. Jon ? I was only saying that Jon showed arrogance in the first book, not that it made him a terrible person while Cat was a paragon of virtue and goodness.

Well, I hope that others got a fuller appreciation of Jon's character. He comes off as a very mature, kind and normal boy to me. He's the one to advise Bran on holding his pony steady when they go to see the execution; he tells Ned that the direwolves were sent for his 5 trueborn children; he gives Needle to Arya; doesn't let Catelyn's disdain stop him from saying goodbye to Bran, and then doesn't let Robb know what it is she said to him in the room. It's no surprise that Jon becomes the kind of leader we see in the later books. He was showing many admirable qualities from the get go.

So, because I had a different impression of Jon's character than you did I didn't "fully appreciate" his character ? I can not like and character and still recognize the good and the bad in him. I never said Jon was a mean jerk who deserved worse than he got, all I said was I saw some serious entitlement issues all throughout the first book. I believe he's fundamentally good, he doesn't change the fact that he acted like a jerk to most of the NW's members throughout the first book before he got several reality checks that put him in his place.

[Grail King]

:rofl: :lmao: typos i love em!

As mentioned not a typo from the urban dictionary: Sub-human race common in all classes and larger races with the dutines associated with cooking, cleaning, and general cunxxxx ......

[Evamitchelle]

ah and yes. the RW would most probably not have happened if Jaime was still in a Stark prison

This was addressed on the first page. Tywin already believed Jaime as good as dead and started the negotiations for the RW well before he was released. The RW also gave him a better chance to ransom him out of Riverrun because he would have had many more highborn hostages, including the Lord of Riverrun and his sister (she wasn't supposed to die but should have become a hostage).

[birdsong66]

Here's the thing: Jon didn't speak any oaths prior to arriving at the NW. He spoke them afterwards, when he knew without a doubt that the conditions at the NW were not what his father, or the stories, would have had him believe. He still spoke the words. Where is it cemented in stone that he could not instead have chosen to leave, prior to taking any vows, ergo without risk or penalty of death as an oathbreaker?

I'm just what if-ing as to how things would have been different if Jon had realized that it was within him to chose an alternative, what that alternative would have been, and what the results of choosing differently would have wrought? Aside from his own inability to actively select another opportunity, how was Jon prevented from leaving the NW after finding the conditions did not merit the glory and honor?

Or, is it that Jon was in search of glory and honor, rather than a loving and nurturing family? A brotherhood from which he could rise and claim a position he felt he deserved by right, or parentage, or upbringing?

Just throwing that out there.....

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm not saying it was the only place to go - I'm saying that under the circumstances it was the best option (for Jon's safety, not just his happiness), or at the very least no worse than the other options.

By the way, the text makes it pretty clear that Ned's treatment of his bastard is pretty abnormal. Most would have been apprenticed, like Gendry, or found a suitable position.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. I've said all I can, but we're never going to agree.

I don't think the Wall makes him safe. Ned as the Warden of the North so he had to know that it was full of criminals. & doesn't he kill deserters? Why does he think that they desert?

Ned could arrange for Jon to become a household knight at a Southern lord, he was the Hand, and Jon was a pretty good fighter, trained by th best teachers in the North. Or arrange for him a nice position in the City watch of KL - one of the Tyrells did that for his bastards. There were plenty of opportunities for Jon better than the NW at its current sorry state. Later on with ned's help Jon could've even married a minor noblewoman - Walder Rivers did, and as we saw with Alayne Stone, with enough money even high nobles can be persuaded to marry bastards.

IMO Ned was simply lying wwith the whole "they'll never accept him in the South" because he was still cautious of someone adding the pieces together and recognizing the "R=L=J" truth.Either that or he was completely clueless about the South despite having spent almost 10 years there.

I think it could have been pieced together at the Wall if not for plot purposes. There had to be people who were present from the time of the Rebellion. Also Tyrion has a big mouth and is too clever for his own good.

[David Selig]

Here's the thing: Jon didn't speak any oaths prior to arriving at the NW. He spoke them afterwards, when he knew without a doubt that the conditions at the NW were not what his father, or the stories, would have had him believe. He still spoke the words. Where is it cemented in stone that he could not instead have chosen to leave, prior to taking any vows, ergo without risk or penalty of death as an oathbreaker?

I'm just what if-ing as to how things would have been different if Jon had realized that it was within him to chose an alternative, what that alternative would have been, and what the results of choosing differently would have wrought? Aside from his own inability to actively select another opportunity, how was Jon prevented from leaving the NW after finding the conditions did not merit the glory and honor?

.

Jon knew he could leave freely before saying the words, that's mentioned at some point. He decided not to, don't recall exactly why, though the main explanation for me is plot convenience..

[ARYa_Nym]

Here's the thing: Jon didn't speak any oaths prior to arriving at the NW. He spoke them afterwards, when he knew without a doubt that the conditions at the NW were not what his father, or the stories, would have had him believe. He still spoke the words. Where is it cemented in stone that he could not instead have chosen to leave, prior to taking any vows, ergo without risk or penalty of death as an oathbreaker?

I'm just what if-ing as to how things would have been different if Jon had realized that it was within him to chose an alternative, what that alternative would have been, and what the results of choosing differently would have wrought? Aside from his own inability to actively select another opportunity, how was Jon prevented from leaving the NW after finding the conditions did not merit the glory and honor?

Or, is it that Jon was in search of glory and honor, rather than a loving and nurturing family? A brotherhood from which he could rise and claim a position he felt he deserved by right, or parentage, or upbringing?

Just throwing that out there.....

I think if he found out what it was really like he couldn't have stayed for glory and honor because he knows that he wouldn't find it there.

Ned was gone already though and he couldn't go back to Winterfell. I don't think he would be as lucky as Arya to be able to find someone out of the blue to take care of him.

[brashcandy]

Jon keeps telling himself that he's happy not to be at the King's table but his actions indicate a different thing to me. Just the fact that he keeps saying "he told himself that he was fortunate in that too" makes it seem to me as if he's trying to feel happy about it but not succeeding very well. His answer to Benjen goes against the happiness sentiment as well : "Most times," Jon answered in a flat voice. "But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to sit a bastard among them". Benjen certainly doesn't understand that sentence as an expression of Jon's gratitude at being seated with the lower-born people.

He lets Benjen know the reason why he is seated with the squires. Was he supposed to smile and look happy whilst saying it? He simply attests to a hard truth, but your initial assertion that he got drunk because he was upset isn't borne out in the text.

Benjen tries quite a bit too tell Jon to wait until he's older : "The Wall is a harsh place for a boy", "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son". Ned probably should have talked to him as well, but I suppose he had other priorities in mind. Like having his young son thrown for a tower and in danger of death and having to become Robert's Hand to try and unveil his foster father's murderers.

Ned's negligence cannot be excused by having bigger problems to deal with. He couldn't confront those until he got to KL anyways, and in the meanwhile he had his young son about to go join an organization with hardened criminals and low lifes. He should have made Jon a priority. All Benjen did by telling Jon that he was too young to join was to make him want to join all the more. Maybe he wasn't adept at knowing how to get through to Jon, so I give him a pass, and lay the blame at Ned's feet.

Most highborn boys are fostered out anyway : Jaime was a squire to Crakehall, Ned and Robert were with Jon Arryn, Edric Storm with Renly etc. Anyway, all the people who knew about him going to the Wall thought he'd be good for him : Ned reflects that a bastard can rise high in the NW, Cat thinks that he'll kinda become Benjen's son that way and thinks it's a good thing. Honestly though I really believe that Ned still thinks the NW to be a prestigious order of which you should be proud of.

Then Ned was either blind or crazy. He had just executed one deserter, and I'm sure that Benjen would have brought reports about the state of the wall. Anyways, it's moot, because Ned didn't think that Jon should join the Watch, but he relented in the face of Cat's insisting that Jon could not stay, and his own admission that he couldn't bring Jon South. Cat thinks that going to the Wall is good for Jon because it gets him away from Winterfell and he can father no children that might give problems later on.

Why are you making it an issue of Cat vs. Jon ? I was only saying that Jon showed arrogance in the first book, not that it made him a terrible person while Cat was a paragon of virtue and goodness.

I'm making an issue of it because I've seen so many posters talk about Jon whining like it's the worse thing in the world (he's 14!), but give Cat a free pass for keeping up hostilities for 14 yrs. I'm trying to highlight that if we're going to talk about immaturity we should we criticising the adult and not the child here. Jon is sensitive about being a bastard, and a lot of it stems from his treatment by Cat.

So, because I had a different impression of Jon's character than you did I didn't "fully appreciate" his character ? I can not like and character and still recognize the good and the bad in him. I never said Jon was a mean jerk who deserved worse than he got, all I said was I saw some serious entitlement issues all throughout the first book. I believe he's fundamentally good, he doesn't change the fact that he acted like a jerk to most of the NW's members throughout the first book before he got several reality checks that put him in his place.

Point taken, and I didn't mean to suggest that you don't recognize these things. Again, sometimes all you hear is "Jon was so whiney in AGOT, but he got better." My point is that he has many good qualities EARLY on as well which explain why he grows into the man he does. I wish this were acknowledged more.

[The Sleeper]

I find it amazing that maturity is expected of a fourteen year old and reason from a grieving mother at her son's deathbed. I thought the appeal of the series was the realism with which the characters are portrayed.

Catelyn Stark was not a saint and was not a martyr. She never claimed and never wanted to be. She was the daughter of a great house and the lady of another, fulfilling the role she was groomed into since childhood, quite willingly for the welfare of her loved ones and also the political advancement of both of her houses as was her duty. She was a shrewd political person, well aware of the reality of the world around her, taking initiative to further her goals rahter than sitting idly by. Her decisions and general outlook of life were, more often than not, colored by compassion, decensy and common sense which were rare traits. Those decisions, though at times informed by her prejudice and at some times taken under emotional distress, were rational with the knowledge she had at the time. When most of these decisions blew up inher face, she bore hit after hit with dignity until she was past the point of human endurance.

More importantly she is one of the best fleshed out, well rounded, multifaceted and realistic characters in this series and her own story has an emotional depth Maritn should be proud of.

She desrves respect as a character and admiration as a literary achievement.