Catelyn: A hugely misunderstood character!

[jarl the climber]

IMO when Catelyn gave Robb good advice he ignored her, when she gave him bad advice he listened. Sneding her to Renly and Stannis was a big mistake on Robbs part, he should have sent Edmure instead. Capturing Tyrion was a very bad descision, the release of Jamie also stupid but more forgivable. Her attitude about Jon was understandable, she asked Ned to explain his devotion to his bastard boy and he scared the hell out of her, womens intution took over and she sensed Jon was a threat to her and her children which if R+L=J is true, he was.

Probaly hurt her cause more than helped it. Really get sick of her mentioning how her son is a king every other page it is pompous and vain.

[birdsong66]

I need to clarify my position here:

Catelyn wasn't obligated to be kind to him, but I don't understand the cries of "Entitlement!" being directed at Jon just because he was disappointed that she wasn't. It seems like a perfectly natural thing for a kid to feel, imo.

I hope that I did not give the impression that Jon's sense of entitlement has anything to do with Catelyn, and wanting her to like him, or mother him, or what have you. He was justifiably entitled to information about his birth mother, the circumstances surrounding his birth, his heritage outside of Ned...this is very reasonable and perfectly natural, not just for Jon, but really for anybody. Including Catelyn, ironically enough.

When I reference entitlement issues specific to Jon, I'm speaking to the end result of being raised with highborn siblings, but still being viewed at large as a bastard, and the difficulty of reconciling the two, leading to conversations on the NW with both Benjen and Noye having to knock him down a couple of pegs.

I stand firm in my belief that what Jon wanted, has always wanted, is his birth mother, and I don't think anyone can blame him for that. That Catelyn couldn't fill that void, didn't want to fill that void, was destined never to fill that void due to plot device (hello?) makes the resulting argument that she is vile, deserving of scorn......ridiculous. Also, i never really got the impression from the books that Jon was disappointed that Catelyn didn't act the mother to him. Rather, the disappointment stems from knowing nothing at all of his own.

[The King in the South]

Well Catelyn is certainly not my most favorite chracter, the amount of disdain and hate for her I've come to see is one of the greatest offences the fandom as a whole has done in my opinion. Catelyn in my eyes, reacted nearly exactly how I would expect your typical carring mother to react in said situations.

Dislike Jon? Yeah we know it's not 100% correct, but given Ned's responses and attitude to her around Jon there is no reason for her to at the very least no have supiscions.

Kidnap Tyrion? Yes maybe she should have thought it through, but when someone trys to kill your son and then your oldest childhood friend tells you who did it you're probably going to act a bit unrationally.

Giving Robb advice? Nearly all of it was spot on, and if anyone is to blame in this relationship it was definetely Robb.

Releasing Jaime? Again, two of her kids had just been killed, of course she's not going to be thinking rationally. And well I am of the opinion Robb probably should have punished her for this action, I can completely see why she did it.

Killing Jinglebell? See releasing Jaime.

Catelyns not perfect, but she cares massively for her children, and all of her questionable acts occured right after a traumatic occurence with her kids. Of course she is not going to think rationally, you wouldn't either if you had just lost your kids. (And if you disagree I'm honestly calling :bs: )

[Hodorific]

Who cares if the Kingslayer has "changed" or was "misunderstood" in the first place.

He threw her young child from a tower. I would never understand her forgiving that.

[David Selig]

Who cares if the Kingslayer has "changed" or was "misunderstood" in the first place.

He threw her young child from a tower. I would never understand her forgiving that.

There's nothing to understand since she never forgave him that.

[headtrip_honey]

Who cares if the Kingslayer has "changed" or was "misunderstood" in the first place.

He threw her young child from a tower. I would never understand her forgiving that.

Did someone say she did?

[headtrip_honey]

a.. tyrion is a sex maniac :) in any case he did protect sansa in many occasions and he certainly didn't try to rape her or whatever..he just showed her his "purple bolbous head" hahah

b.. sansa being twelve, doesn't actually count, cause ages in this series are really out of proportion..Martin himself has admited that..

personally i apply a +5 to all of the youngest characters to give em a bit of credibility..if not, it all just seems stupid and messy..at times, even perverse.. like for example dany's first night, that was supposed to even be kinna "romantic" in the end..wtf

a. He let her strip naked, groped her boob, and told her he wanted to fuck her despite her being a child. ("You are a child, but I want you"...::shudder:: )

b. Sansa, being twelve, was a child. What Martin has SAID, is that since his proposed 5 year gap did not pan out, he wishes he'd started with them older. He had always planned for them to be young at the start, including Sansa being 12 and Dany being 13 on their wedding nights.

[wyman's cook]

well then ...we've been reading some crazy shit, friends! hahah

anyway..it's all fiction..fact is he didn't in the end and he kept his word

"i'm not gonna savage you kid" or something, that he told her when they first met..i can't really remember everything :)

but we have to add a +5 to the younger characters cause if not many things seem pretty weird..and i'm not talking only about the pedo-sex but also about clearly practical stuff..

[Lemon Cake]

Her treatment of Jon? Meh.

He was a bastard that encroached on her childrens rights every minute he was there.

Maybe not maliciously, but every minute Ser Rodrik spent correcting a flaw in Jons handling of a sword was a minute he could've spent on Robb.

Oh, come on, there's not a single reason to believe that the trueborn Stark kids were ever slighted or cheated out of attention because of Jon's presence in their household. They were all, every single one of them, kids who were happy and thriving and secure not only in their parents' love, but in the affection of several household retainers as well (Maester Luwin, Jory Cassel, Ser Rodrik, etc). They never suffered a single bit because Jon was there.

Quite the contrary. Far from feeling cheated, they seemed happy to have Jon with them. Robb and Bran clearly loved him, and Arya adored him. And in Bran's specific case, Jon even made an effort to give him extra help (archery, helping him get through the beheading of the Night's Watchman), so if anything, Bran benefited from Jon being there. Not even Sansa, the only one of Catelyn's children to show Jon anything less than total warmth and acceptance (though she's thankfully growing out of that), has never given the slightest indication, in either her own POVs or elsewhere, that she ever felt the slightest bit cheated of attention, training, or tutoring because of Jon.

If Catelyn believed that her children were being cheated out of attention or training because of Jon, it was because of a skewed perception on her part, not because there was any truth to it.

What kind of moron would judge her for looking at my bastard son/daughter as an unwelcome interloper, if he/she was right next to our kids learning the business?

Ah, throwing names at anyone who disagrees with your opinion? Classy.

[House Martell]

I only have 1 real problem with Catelyn. Sure there are decisions that seem foolish in hindsight and actions that while I may disagree with I can accept peoples rationales for them. However still now after some time I can not plausably accept how a mother can leave her newly crippled 8 yr old son and 3 yr old boy alone (without any family) to join her 16 yr old son (basically considered grown) who has an army at his back and march off to war. I can accept dragons and magic but a mother who in one instance we're told does everything to get her girls back but on the other hand abandons her youngest children I find unimaginable. And i'm not talking about going to KL and meeting Ned (I disagree but will accept the argument for) but later on when she has the option to return Winterfell but instead joins the Northern canpaign and marches to Riverrun.

[jarl the climber]

I only have 1 real problem with Catelyn. Sure there are decisions that seem foolish in hindsight and actions that while I may disagree with I can accept peoples rationales for them. However still now after some time I can not plausably accept how a mother can leave her newly crippled 8 yr old son and 3 yr old boy alone (without any family) to join her 16 yr old son (basically considered grown) who has an army at his back and march off to war. I can accept dragons and magic but a mother who in one instance we're told does everything to get her girls back but on the other hand abandons her youngest children I find unimaginable. And i'm not talking about going to KL and meeting Ned (I disagree but will accept the argument for) but later on when she has the option to return Winterfell but instead joins the Northern canpaign and marches to Riverrun.

I think it is because Robb becomes a replacement for Ned in her mind. I think that it is part of the reason he decided to send her to seagard, the Mallister lord is widowed as well so Robb may have more in mind than exiling her.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Hi all, this is my first post here after lurking for a couple of weeks. I've seen a lot of this Catelyn vs Jon stuff here and other places and for me it's not the main issue. While I don't think anyone should be defending Cat's treatment of Jon I can understand where it comes from and forgive her for it. And my issue isn't that her actions are dumber than other characters or that she gives bad advice; some of her actions are quite foolish, some of her advice is bad, some of her advice is good. She is definitely not an evil person, and probably not even a bad person.

On the other hand, she is very critical of others, self-important, and selfish (people are gonna disagree with this one but hear me out). I just finished my first re-read of GoT and my first impression of Cat has been reinforced. Because we get Catelyn as a POV character we get intimate knowledge of her thoughts, and unlike many other characters this makes her much less sympathetic to me rather than more. Her almost constant refrain is that she needs to make other see how right she is about an issue- she quizzes Robb on his military strategy and is internally grading his choices as if she is an accomplished strategist. And it's not so much that her advice is bad it's that she's so judgmental and has so little respect for the talents and opinions of others- she is constantly doubting those around her but rarely doubts herself.

But what really burned my up on reread was the stance she took at the council that names Robb King in the North at the end of GoT. She tries to convince the gathered Lords to make peace with the Lannisters because Ned has already been executed and she wants to trade Jaime for her daughters. This is where the selfishness comes in- and I'm willing to grant that she cares about her children, but I'm still going to call what she does here selfishness. The assembled Lords reject her plea because they want revenge, the Lords of the Riverlands have had their lands burned and the Lords of the North have lost sons and soldiers in battle. And Catelyn had no problem sacrificing their lands and lives when she captured Tyrion or thought the war might free Ned from the Red Keep. To be clear, I'm not saying Cat started the war- that was definitely Littlefinger- but she didn't care about peace when she was seeking justice for Bran or freedom for Ned. And she sits at the council with these people who have sacrifices so much for her and her family and instead of feeling grateful she thinks how foolish they are, how they should just see that the best thing to do is to trade Jaime for Sansa and Arya and sue for peace. She devalues any opinion that runs contrary to her own, that's what makes her such a frustrating POV to read.

My question is, what is there to like about Catelyn? Sure, she loves her children- so does Cersei Lannister, who uses her love of to justify horrible evils. Catelyn doesn't do the terrible things that Cersei does but where is her good side? Where is her love for cripples bastards and broken things? I don't see any redeeming qualities I see the worst traits of an entitled high born lady. She doesn't spare a single thought for the suffering the smallfolk endure in the fight for her family but when she wants to end the fight they're all a bunch of idiots for wanting vengeance. Cat is not a bad person, but she certainly isn't a good person and she has nasty judgmental streak in her.

[Ser Hippie]

I only have 1 real problem with Catelyn. Sure there are decisions that seem foolish in hindsight and actions that while I may disagree with I can accept peoples rationales for them. However still now after some time I can not plausably accept how a mother can leave her newly crippled 8 yr old son and 3 yr old boy alone (without any family) to join her 16 yr old son (basically considered grown) who has an army at his back and march off to war. I can accept dragons and magic but a mother who in one instance we're told does everything to get her girls back but on the other hand abandons her youngest children I find unimaginable. And i'm not talking about going to KL and meeting Ned (I disagree but will accept the argument for) but later on when she has the option to return Winterfell but instead joins the Northern canpaign and marches to Riverrun.

This criticism is brought up a lot but, who do you think gains more from Catelyn's presence and experience? Robb may be a "man grown" but when she meets him at Moat Cailin he's clearly intimidated and out of his element. It's not until later that he has the confidence to act the man. And if she stays at Winterfell, leaving Robb at the mercy of the ambitions of his bannermen, what good is she doing?

[House Martell]

This criticism is brought up a lot but, who do you think gains more from Catelyn's presence and experience? Robb may be a "man grown" but when she meets him at Moat Cailin he's clearly intimidated and out of his element. It's not until later that he has the confidence to act the man. And if she stays at Winterfell, leaving Robb at the mercy of the ambitions of his bannermen, what good is she doing?

in the end her presence didn't help much with the ambitions of bannermen anyway. and maybe her presence at Winterfell would have kept it from becoming a smoldering ruin, with her youngest son a wild cannibal and her crippled boy a tree.

[Ser Hippie]

in the end her presence didn't help much with the ambitions of bannermen anyway. and maybe her presence at Winterfell would have kept it from becoming a smoldering ruin, with her youngest son a wild cannibal.

If she hadn't been there for Robb in AGOT, how far do you think he would have gotten? He was on the verge of tears because he was so overwhelmed when they met.

As for her being at Winterfell....how would she have stopped Theon? If anything, it would have made things worse (Theon forcibly marrying her, rape, an additional hostage, etc.). She certainly wasn't going to keep Theon from capturing the castle.

[jarl the climber]

Replying to Onion Azai, I think Catelyn is the only one who acts with any common sense at the meeting where Robb is named King of the North. Agree with you that she does come across as pompous and self entitled but she is thinking of other peoples children as well when she asks the Lords at the council to consider making peace. Her point is that continuing the war wont bring Ned back or anyone elses loved one back, they have achieved thier aim of breaking the seige of Riverrun and can no longer save Ned.

[House Martell]

If she hadn't been there for Robb in AGOT, how far do you think he would have gotten? He was on the verge of tears because he was so overwhelmed when they met.

As for her being at Winterfell....how would she have stopped Theon? If anything, it would have made things worse (Theon forcibly marrying her, rape, an additional hostage, etc.). She certainly wasn't going to keep Theon from capturing the castle.

I think the odds of Robb manning up at some point were pretty good. Sure it helped to have him mommy around but the best thing Cat could have done was bring him the Blackfish (far more valuable militarily) then taken some men and gone back to her 2 young sons. With a few more men and Cat running the Castle maybe Theon never takes it, heck maybe Robb makes Theon escort her back to Winterfell and he never gets back to the Iron Isle...

[jarl the climber]

I think the odds of Robb manning up at some point were pretty good. Sure it helped to have him mommy around but the best thing Cat could have done was bring him the Blackfish (far more valuable militarily) then taken some men and gone back to her 2 young sons. With a few more men and Cat running the Castle maybe Theon never takes it, heck maybe Robb makes Theon escort her back to Winterfell and he never gets back to the Iron Isle...

This is another time when Catelyn gives Robb good advice and is ignored, she told him not to send Theon to the Iron Islands at all.

[Ser Hippie]

I think the odds of Robb manning up at some point were pretty good.

Why would Robb have a good chance of handling things without Catelyn around? He openly admits to feeling completely inadequate and it's through her that he finds his confidence. Not to mention it's Catelyn who secures the alliance with the Freys...

Sure it helped to have him mommy around but the best thing Cat could have done was bring him the Blackfish (far more valuable militarily) then taken some men and gone back to her 2 young sons. With a few more men and Cat running the Castle maybe Theon never takes it, heck maybe Robb makes Theon escort her back to Winterfell and he never gets back to the Iron Isle...

Theon took the castle at night, even with a handful of men (unless you think Catelyn should have taken even more from Robb's army which was going to war) would not have mattered at all. Catelyn would have done nobody any good at Winterfell except the ironborn.

[House Martell]

and beside my issue isn't with what makes more sense stratigically, its about a mother leaving her 3 yr old and 8 yr old newly crippled son with "care takers", there is no arguemnt that makes that ok in my mind. We're told to excuse her actions on one hand because she does it for her daughters or for Robb, but what about Rickon & Bran?