Catelyn: A hugely misunderstood character!

[birdsong66]

I find it amazing that maturity is expected of a fourteen year old and reason from a grieving mother at her son's deathbed. I thought the appeal of the series was the realism with which the characters are portrayed.

Catelyn Stark was not a saint and was not a martyr. She never claimed and never wanted to be. She was the daughter of a great house and the lady of another, fulfilling the role she was groomed into since childhood, quite willingly for the welfare of her loved ones and also the political advancement of both of her houses as was her duty. She was a shrewd political person, well aware of the reality of the world around her, taking initiative to further her goals rahter than sitting idly by. Her decisions and general outlook of life were, more often than not, colored by compassion, decensy and common sense which were rare traits. Those decisions, though at times informed by her prejudice and at some times taken under emotional distress, were rational with the knowledge she had at the time. When most of these decisions blew up inher face, she bore hit after hit with dignity until she was past the point of human endurance.

More importantly she is one of the best fleshed out, well rounded, multifaceted and realistic characters in this series and her own story has an emotional depth Maritn should be proud of.

She desrves respect as a character and admiration as a literary achievement.

just an Other--I'd drink yer bathwatahh.

[NickSnow]

I agree with this thread completely. Catelyn is one of the most judged character in the whole series, but I don;t get it.

Sure, she makes some bad decision in the grand scheme of things, but the decisions she made were right for her at the time. She is so complex as a character: she a good person, but her decisions lead to bad things. Her treatment of Jon is also perfectly understandable, as he represents Ned's dark side. Jon is a constant reminder of his infidelity.

She has also showed us many areas in Westeros. Through her, we have seen Winterfell, Riverrun, The Eyrie, Storm's End, King's Landing, and The South.

[Lemon Cake]

Again, Jon learns differently. He may tend to sometimes believe he has it worse than anyone, but how many of us can claim such enlightened perspectives when we're going through our own problems. Did Cat ever stop to think that Cersei had it worse than her with Robert fathering 16 bastards? Or did she simply focus on the fact that Ned brought Jon home?

That's yet another problem I have with the argument that Jon had it so much better than most other bastards in Westeros, so how dare he be hurt and disappointed that his stepmother didn't like him? Because that argument can just as easily be applied to Catelyn, too (and it would be just as unfair, imo).

After all, Catelyn definitely had it better than most women in Westeros, and arguably better even than most highborn wives. She had a husband who loved her and (with the one exception of the situation with Jon) treated her feelings and opinions with respect, who did not beat her or verbally abuse her*, and who was a loving father to their children. So how dare she continue to be upset about this one area of her life that sucked, when she had it so good in so many other ways! I bet Gregor Clegane's wives would have been thrilled if the worst thing they had to endure was the embarrassment of their husband's bastard living in their home!

Please note: I don't believe the above argument one bit. On the contrary, I think it's absurd to believe that Catelyn shouldn't have been upset -- with Ned, not with Jon -- about the situation. I only bring it up to explain why I think it's equally absurd to say that Jon isn't allowed to feel bad about Catelyn's coldness just because he was lucky in other ways. I understand where Catelyn was coming from, but I also think it's perfectly natural and understandable that a motherless kid might hope that his stepmother -- the only mother figure he has in his life -- might be able to accept him and treat him with some kindness, and to be hurt and disappointed when it doesn't happen. Catelyn wasn't obligated to be kind to him, but I don't understand the cries of "Entitlement!" being directed at Jon just because he was disappointed that she wasn't. It seems like a perfectly natural thing for a kid to feel, imo.

* And I do not mean that in a "Omg he didn't beat his wife, WHAT A SAINT, let's throw that man a parade!!!!" sort of way, but simply that it was sadly not uncommon for women to be beaten by their husbands in a society like that.

[headtrip_honey]

That's yet another problem I have with the argument that Jon had it so much better than most other bastards in Westeros, so how dare he be hurt and disappointed that his stepmother didn't like him? Because that argument can just easily be applied to Catelyn, too (and it would be just as unfair, imo).

After all, Catelyn definitely had it better than most women in Westeros, and arguably better even than most highborn wives. She had a husband who loved her and (with the one exception of the situation with Jon) treated her feelings and opinions with respect, who did not beat her or verbally abuse her*, and who was a loving father to their children. So how dare she continue to be upset about this one area of her life that sucked, when she had it so good in so many other ways! I bet Gregor Clegane's wives would have been thrilled if the worst thing they had to endure was the embarrassment of their husband's bastard living in their home!

Please note: I don't believe the above argument one bit. On the contrary, I think it's absurd to believe that Catelyn shouldn't have been upset -- with Ned, not with Jon -- about the situation. I only bring it up to explain why I think it's equally absurd to say that Jon isn't allowed to feel bad about Catelyn's coldness just because he was lucky in other ways. I understand where Catelyn was coming from, but I also think it's perfectly natural and understandable that a motherless kid might hope that his stepmother -- the only mother figure he has in his life -- might be able to accept him and treat him with some kindness, and to be hurt and disappointed when it doesn't happen. Catelyn wasn't obligated to be kind to him, but I don't understand the cries of "Entitlement!" being directed at Jon just because he was disappointed that she wasn't. It seems like a perfectly natural thing for a kid to feel, imo.

I would just like to clarify that I completely sympathize with Jon for not having a loving mother figure in his life. That's something for which I'd be fine with him throwing a pity party. It SUCKS.

I just find the argument (that you're not making, but that others have) that Catelyn is the Worst Person in Westeros for not being able to love her husband's bastard to be sadly lacking if not outright ridiculous.

[Lemon Cake]

I just find the argument (that you're not making, but that others have) that because Catelyn is the Worst Person in Westeros for not being able to love her husband's bastard to be sadly lacking if not outright ridiculous.

Oh, I do too. I am right there with you on that, sister.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I don't see how her decisions could possibly have lead her or her son to death.

She was tilting towards madness before she left Winterfell. Traveling to KL was her first mistake. She could have sent Ser Rodrik, using any excuse she could come up with, in order to inform Ned about the attenpt on Bran's life. Kidnapping Tyrion was the catalyst. She herself told Robb that the years had not made Tywin any kinder, therefore It was poor judgement especially since Ned told her not to do anything until they had proof. I don't blame her for her actions as Lady Stoneheart, however, I think that it is time for her to be put down for good.

[The Irish Wolf]

People on this board can rationalize liking Jaime and Sandor when they have done despicable acts and very few "good" things.

Therefore I don't think hating Cat Tully because of the few things people might disagree with, like her treatment of a beloved character in Jon Snow, is that far-fetched.

Another thing for the people arguing that Cat didn't emotionally "abuse" Jon while he was growing up. You ask where is the evidence that she did, well where is the evidence that she didn't? One big thing that I have come to rethink is Jon not being able to sit with his siblings when the royal family comes to Winterfell. Yes it could be seen as trying not to insult the royals somehow, but why didn't Walder Frey hide his bastard when Lady Stark came to talk. Why aren't people in the Vale more insulted by Alayne(Sansa's alias, can't remember if that's right) even with so many people already on edge with Petyr? Even Cersei herself promotes a bastard to a spot on her small council. Could it be just Cat's view on bastards is just a little more skewed than most?

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

"Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle". This lovely statement was made by Tyrion to his 12-year-old captive bride in front of half the court. And that's just the first one that popped into my mind. And it's witty ! Which would make it even worse according to your standards.

Here we go again with this. This was said more for Joffrey and Tywin than it was for Sansa. What would have been better, to let let Joffrey strip and possibly rape her or make a jape and get her to safety? Catelyn was mean and spiteful by telling Jon that, she wished it were him lying there on the brink of death. Wishing death on someone with all of hate your heart or making a crude joke? HMMM, I would choose the cruel joke.

[Serie]

Catelyn was mean and spiteful by telling Jon that, she wished it were him lying there on the brink of death. Wishing death on someone with all of hate your heart or making a crude joke? HMMM, I would choose the cruel joke.

I don't wish to justify Cat but I think it was her grief talking there. After all she's a mother and mothers get insane when their children are harmed.

Lets not forget the words of the Tully's, and Cat was raised with them: family, duty, honor....

[Ignacia]

People on this board can rationalize liking Jaime and Sandor when they have done despicable acts and very few "good" things.

Therefore I don't think hating Cat Tully because of the few things people might disagree with, like her treatment of a beloved character in Jon Snow, is that far-fetched.

Another thing for the people arguing that Cat didn't emotionally "abuse" Jon while he was growing up. You ask where is the evidence that she did, well where is the evidence that she didn't? One big thing that I have come to rethink is Jon not being able to sit with his siblings when the royal family comes to Winterfell. Yes it could be seen as trying not to insult the royals somehow, but why didn't Walder Frey hide his bastard when Lady Stark came to talk. Why aren't people in the Vale more insulted by Alayne(Sansa's alias, can't remember if that's right) even with so many people already on edge with Petyr? Even Cersei herself promotes a bastard to a spot on her small council. Could it be just Cat's view on bastards is just a little more skewed than most?

Well, Walder Frey probably didn't care too much if Catelyn was offended. And Sansa has changed some things since she is posing as a bastard, she must dress differently, for instance. And when the lords declarant went to the Eyrie she didnt sit with them, she was standing next to them pouring the wine. Cersei chose the Aurane Waters precisly because it was an insult to the lord from the Reach who was going to take that charge, if I remember correctly (and because he reminded her of Rhaegar).

[Valkyrist]

Capturing Tyrion was a very stupid thing to do, but she couldn't have forseen the reprocussions. Releasing Jaime, however, was unforgiveable. Jaime may not have caused the Red Wedding (despite Bolton's parting words to Robb), but the fact that he was no longer a hostage at Riverrun, allowed the Red Wedding to happen. Tywin would never have signed off on it, if Jaime had still been Robb's captive, or else the Black Fish would have gutted him, and sent his head to King's Landing.

[PatrickStormborn]

People on this board can rationalize liking Jaime and Sandor when they have done despicable acts and very few "good" things.

Therefore I don't think hating Cat Tully because of the few things people might disagree with, like her treatment of a beloved character in Jon Snow, is that far-fetched.

Another thing for the people arguing that Cat didn't emotionally "abuse" Jon while he was growing up. You ask where is the evidence that she did, well where is the evidence that she didn't? One big thing that I have come to rethink is Jon not being able to sit with his siblings when the royal family comes to Winterfell. Yes it could be seen as trying not to insult the royals somehow, but why didn't Walder Frey hide his bastard when Lady Stark came to talk. Why aren't people in the Vale more insulted by Alayne(Sansa's alias, can't remember if that's right) even with so many people already on edge with Petyr? Even Cersei herself promotes a bastard to a spot on her small council. Could it be just Cat's view on bastards is just a little more skewed than most?

How about Martin himself saying that Catelyn did not emotionally abuse Jon? Whether or not you agree with it, Jon had no right to sit with the king and his family. Ellaria Sand, a bastard, was not allowed to be seated with the other highborn women at Joffrey's wedding because it would cause an upset.

Catelyn did not hate Jon. She says that she "could not bring herself to love him". These are not the thoughts of an evil woman, which is why I find it so disgustingly misoygnistic when people name her as their least favourite character.

[The GRRumbler]

She was tilting towards madness before she left Winterfell. Traveling to KL was her first mistake. She could have sent Ser Rodrik, using any excuse she could come up with, in order to inform Ned about the attenpt on Bran's life. Kidnapping Tyrion was the catalyst. She herself told Robb that the years had not made Tywin any kinder, therefore It was poor judgement especially since Ned told her not to do anything until they had proof. I don't blame her for her actions as Lady Stoneheart, however, I think that it is time for her to be put down for good.

I still don't see how that led to her death, and by death i mean red wedding, and by red wedding i mean wtf robb? really?

And again you have to put her actions into context, and by the level of information she had in those circustamces, i don't think they were bad decisions.

And again i say, people in these forum find simpathy for charaters that have desired and done far worse than Catelyn, for one thing, her intent was always the best for her family, i think people are using double standards here, and really biased against Catelyn.

[PatrickStormborn]

Capturing Tyrion was a very stupid thing to do, but she couldn't have forseen the reprocussions. Releasing Jaime, however, was unforgiveable. Jaime may not have caused the Red Wedding (despite Bolton's parting words to Robb), but the fact that he was no longer a hostage at Riverrun, allowed the Red Wedding to happen. Tywin would never have signed off on it, if Jaime had still been Robb's captive, or else the Black Fish would have gutted him, and sent his head to King's Landing.

That's far from true. After the Red Wedding, the Lannisters would have been in possession of far too many hostages for Jaime's death to be certain. Sansa, Catelyn, Edmure, etc. In fact, the Red Wedding actually gave the Lannisters a better chance of getting Jaime back.

[PatrickStormborn]

Here we go again with this. This was said more for Joffrey and Tywin than it was for Sansa. What would have been better, to let let Joffrey strip and possibly rape her or make a jape and get her to safety? Catelyn was mean and spiteful by telling Jon that, she wished it were him lying there on the brink of death. Wishing death on someone with all of hate your heart or making a crude joke? HMMM, I would choose the cruel joke.

Do you know what would have been better? If Tyrion had've shown respect for his twelve year old wife.

[The Frosted King]

The Catelyn hate caravan has always rolled on wheels made of twigs and gum, and one day, the entire procession will collapse. The day when people read AND comprehend what they're reading.

Catelyn was a mother who loved her family dearly, and worked every angle for their best positioning. She counseled Ned to go south, and agree to the marriage of Sansa and Joff.

Yep, because it was the prudent thing to do.

In the south, he could investigate the cause of the sudden mysterious death of the man who went to war on his behalf, when lesser lords would've sent for the headsman.

And in days when bloodlines and position meant everything, you don't turn away honors. You don't turn away the position of second most powerful man in the realm, and you definitely don't decline to seat your daughter on the throne.

Robert:"Ned, i want to join bloodlines with you, and make your daughter my sons queen...."

Eddard: Umm, i'm good. Not really interested."

YOU DON'T SAY THAT.

Especially not to a King as weak as Robert, and a queen as paranoid and obsessive as Cersei.

Now, if Ned went south, found nothing worthwhile regarding Arryn, and saw Joff for who he was, then he could resign, and return home with his daughters. I suspect thats actually what he planned on doing.

But he DID find evidence around Arryn, and he saw the truth behind the royal children. So he had to do something.

Her treatment of Jon? Meh.

He was a bastard that encroached on her childrens rights every minute he was there.

Maybe not maliciously, but every minute Ser Rodrik spent correcting a flaw in Jons handling of a sword was a minute he could've spent on Robb.

Catelyn made the best of a bad situation. And the only precedent we saw for the Ned/Jon dynamic was in the Aegon/Daemon/Bittersteel/Bloodraven dynamic.

And the realm remembers how bloody that ended up.

When inheritance and birthrights are in play, these things matter.

How does it look when you raise your bastard as a lord, right alongside your true heir? How can she not live in fear and resentment of Jon, when his lordship training(and thats exactly what it was) was making him think as a lord?

If i had a wife, and i had a son born out of wedlock, and my wife and i's shipping business was booming, my wife would likely expect me to raise any of our children together to the expectation of continuing the family business.

What kind of moron would judge her for looking at my bastard son/daughter as an unwelcome interloper, if he/she was right next to our kids learning the business?

Catelyn said something in her grief when her special boy(referenced a few times) was at deaths door. Your first born isn't always your favored child, just as the baby isn't always the most loved. So what.

Catelyn Stark...best mother in Westeros.

[Alexia]

That's far from true. After the Red Wedding, the Lannisters would have been in possession of far too many hostages for Jaime's death to be certain. Sansa, Catelyn, Edmure, etc. In fact, the Red Wedding actually gave the Lannisters a better chance of getting Jaime back.

Though I always wondered if Robb would have responded to Sansa's wedding by beheading Jaime...

[The Frosted King]

No.

I always wondered if Catelyn told Robb about Jaime and Cersei being the reason behind Brans fall.....

If she did, he should've removed Jaime's thumbs, pinkies, big toes and little toes.

All Bran wanted to do was be a great knight. Jaime robbed him of his dreams, so Robb should've removed his tools to his glory.

Lets see him swing a sword and win a duel with his sense of balance, grip and dexterity forever misaligned.

Would've only been fair.

[The Irish Wolf]

How about Martin himself saying that Catelyn did not emotionally abuse Jon? Whether or not you agree with it, Jon had no right to sit with the king and his family. Ellaria Sand, a bastard, was not allowed to be seated with the other highborn women at Joffrey's wedding because it would cause an upset.

Catelyn did not hate Jon. She says that she "could not bring herself to love him". These are not the thoughts of an evil woman, which is why I find it so disgustingly misoygnistic when people name her as their least favourite character.

With Sand it's very different because she is a lover not family if I remember correctly so that point I dismiss. Don't get me wrong, I think in Westeros it wouldn't be uncommon for bastards to be put to the side for certain manners, I just don't see any evidence for there being outrage at a family who embraces a bastard, so I just see it as a way for Cat to have Jon out of sight which I think we can all agree is exactly what she would desire.

Regarding the emotional "abuse" it was my fault for not clarifying. I put quotations around the word abuse because I think we are going to the extreme by calling it that. I'm not shocked at all to hear GRRM say she didn't, but I would love to see any evidence showing Cat was in any way warm or even nice to Jon... ever. To a child growing up, simply ignoring them can be as damaging as a parent who constantly yells at a child. Now is that abuse, to a mature mind absolutely not.

But again, you say you can't believe it when people list her last because of all this, people love Jaime Lannister who partook in incest and tried to murder a 7 year old. When it comes to characters, just got to chalk it up to different strokes for different folks.

[wyman's cook]

Do you know what would have been better? If Tyrion had've shown respect for his twelve year old wife.

a.. tyrion is a sex maniac :) in any case he did protect sansa in many occasions and he certainly didn't try to rape her or whatever..he just showed her his "purple bolbous head" hahah

b.. sansa being twelve, doesn't actually count, cause ages in this series are really out of proportion..Martin himself has admited that..

personally i apply a +5 to all of the youngest characters to give em a bit of credibility..if not, it all just seems stupid and messy..at times, even perverse.. like for example dany's first night, that was supposed to even be kinna "romantic" in the end..wtf