From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[bgona]

I don´t think Sansa was drunk. She doesn´t remember to try the wine, she was drunk of all what was happening.

She didn´t look at him cause she was scared of him. Even those, she try to recite a polite sentence. He realize and it´s when he barks (for me he doesn´t speak more of the times: he barks).

It´s also the first time that he teals her that Her Septa had teached her well. Cause she didn´t lie saying something good about Ser Gregor.

And also it´s the first time that he hold her for the arm so she doesn´t fall down. It is significant all the times that The Hound stop her to fall down.

Also it´s significant that all they spoke that night they change for the next day during the tourney (are we going to reread also that chapter of Eddard). Cause I think that it´s important also somethings that happens there to Sansa.

[bgona]

The Hound is not calculating thru people, only the way it affects directly to him. As you say is more of let me 5 minutes to think.

Varys and LF had followed him as to everybody with some interest (he is interesting as he is the sheild of Joff). But what have they? As you have pointed only some whores and drinking. Nothing more. So they got bored of him. He didn´t say nothing.

One thing that I love it´s that everything that happens between Sansa and Sandor it´s know only between them. Nobody knows that he was in her bedroom at BBB.

[Grail King]

To me the Hound isn't calculating anything he's more BLUNT than anyone in the story to the point he comes off as RUDE, CRUDE and SOCIALLY UNACCEPTABLE for his time.

And between the BIRD and WEASEL he may have unlocked something deep inside himself long forgotten.

[1234567]

Just a reminder that Sansa Chapter 3 will be up for discussion tomorrow. There is quite a lot of interesting stuff in it including more Littlefinger and her "snootyness" Septa Mordane.

[brashcandy]

Also it´s significant that all they spoke that night they change for the next day during the tourney (are we going to reread also that chapter of Eddard). Cause I think that it´s important also somethings that happens there to Sansa.

No, we won't be reviewing that chapter in the reread, but it is notable for a couple reasons. I think mostly that Gregor's lunacy is made perfectly clear to Sansa, and confirms the Hound's story about the kind of man he is, as well her take that he's no "true knight." We get to see Sandor's heroics here as well, which will factor in later in Sansa's experiences.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I am pretty sure we are disassembling the why of the tourney conversation between Sansa and Sandor, I think it makes it relevant. I think it is impossible to have a Sansa thread without talking about Sandor and vice versa.

You're right, indeed there is a lot of discussion of Jorah in the Dany threads, though there opinion was pretty well divided which made things (IMO) a lot more interesting.

However I am a weeeeeeeeee bit concerned that due to his popularity every single Sansa discussion here is going to get dominated by Hound-talk even if he's in the chapter for 1 second.

Like I've pointed out LF should probably get at least equal time given his importance to Sansa's narrative, but since Hound fans all seem to loathe him, it's not gonna happen. I know there are LF fans out there but they seem notably absent in this thread so far. :P

[Solaris]

You're right, indeed there is a lot of discussion of Jorah in the Dany threads, though there opinion was pretty well divided which made things (IMO) a lot more interesting.

However I am a weeeeeeeeee bit concerned that due to his popularity every single Sansa discussion here is going to get dominated by Hound-talk even if he's in the chapter for 1 second.

Like I've pointed out LF should probably get at least equal time given his importance to Sansa's narrative, but since Hound fans all seem to loathe him, it's not gonna happen. I know there are LF fans out there but they seem notably absent in this thread so far. :P

I am actually gaging a bit to get to the Eyrie chapters with LF, I cant wait to pull that shit appart with you all. I stupidly lent my aGoT to a best mate of mine (don't panic he can be trusted with my precious book) so I have to roll off memory for the rest of aGoT which is shit but oh well.

You could try a PLEASE LIMIT HOUND TALK notice on the thread... I don't think it will work but hey you tried.

[1234567]

However I am a weeeeeeeeee bit concerned that due to his popularity every single Sansa discussion here is going to get dominated by Hound-talk even if he's in the chapter for 1 second.

Like I've pointed out LF should probably get at least equal time given his importance to Sansa's narrative, but since Hound fans all seem to loathe him, it's not gonna happen. I know there are LF fans out there but they seem notably absent in this thread so far. :P

That's a bit unfair. We have had one rather long scene in the last chapter between Sansa and the Hound and a very short one between her and LF. I have repeatedly said we are discussing this chapter by chapter.

Indeed the next Chapter has a scant mention of the Hound and a much bigger part with her and LF. LF will get the same amount of discussion time, but when it's relevant and I'm sure it will be the same with Sandor. Hence there maybe more to be said about Sandor and her in the first two books, followed by more stuff about her and Tyrion and then her and LF in the third and fourth book.

Also I personally think Sansa's character and study of shouldn't be dominated by either man as she herself is what we are discussing.

@ Solaris

Don't worry. We are going to try and keep everything on track re: the chapters.

[bgona]

Sorry, sorry, sorry but I can´t talk of Sansa or Sandor without mentione the other. I´ll try, but I don´t know if I will be able (they are my favourite ship, I´m a fan ship of San/San, even knowing that they won´t be together never more in the book, and knowing that are both destinated to die. I really hope that I´m wrong!!!).

I must speak then of the reaction of Sansa the next day of their speach in the tourney. She knew that he was going to win. She was completly sure even he was fighting against Jaime. And he had a look that was obvious to Renly so he bet for him.

I´m pretty sure that he was also touched by the conversation. And that he jumped to protect the Knight of The Flowers cause something inside him has beggun to move.

Inside him he is a true knight, despite all his bitterness.

[brashcandy]

Also I personally think Sansa's character and study of shouldn't be dominated by either man as she herself is what we are discussing.

Particularly this. Whilst I know her relationship with both men is important, I really want to keep the thread Sansa-centric. It's vital to discuss these men in relation to Sansa, and how they contribute to her development and what is revealed about her character via interacting with them. I'm looking forward to talking about Tyrion as well!

[Solaris]

Don't worry. We are going to try and keep everything on track re: the chapters.

Hey, I am not worried, I like it when it all spirals out of control - it gets interesting. I am pro Sandor, could just talk about him the whole time but I appreciate what you guys are trying to do hence the suggestion. :)

[1234567]

Sorry, sorry, sorry but I can´t talk of Sansa or Sandor without mentione the other. I´ll try, but I don´t know if I will be able

We are discussing her character growth chapter by chapter. So it's best to focus on what's in that chapter.

Also it is important to look at her individual character as a separate person from the men around her. Both the Sansa Appreciation thread and the Sandor thread discuss their relationship quite often and unless it is relevant to the chapter at hand or refers to a chapter we've read, then it would be better to discuss it in those other threads.

So far I think the two chapters discussed have already shown that she has started out as a rationalist, with a rather fairytale and naive world view, but we are also seeing her ability to keep composure under pressure, her knowledge about the nobility and their House Sigils and her ability to recognize even strangers based on what she knows about their houses etc.

[ElizaMartell]

Also I personally think Sansa's character and study of shouldn't be dominated by either man as she herself is what we are discussing.

THIS. I think its slightly disconcerting how many convos on how much Sansa can cure this or that person without looking at her character in her own right. I don't care if you have your own 'Littlefinger' (If so, call the police for Fathers sakes!) lets talk about Sansa!

[Solaris]

THIS. I think its slightly disconcerting how many convos on how much Sansa can cure this or that person without looking at her character in her own right. I don't care if you have your own 'Littlefinger' (If so, call the police for Fathers sakes!) lets talk about Sansa!

Ease up turbo. Just put your 2 cents in about Sansa and ignore it if you aren't interested and just scroll on. I do when threads are running off on a random tangent. :)

[brashcandy]

An interesting discussion went on in the Sansa unkiss thread which I think has relevance here as well because it takes place in the 2nd chapter we're discussing. It's when Sansa is walking with Sandor and she notes that she could feel him looking at her. I think some view points were put forth about if it could be an early indicator of Sansa's warg ability or not. Thoughts on this?

[Solaris]

Sansa is an empath. Big fat strong emotions directed at her and she can feel them. Whether it be Ser Payne or Sandor or whoever else at the time. I shall dub it Sansasense.

[Grail King]

As for me I don't think at this time I ever put Sansa in a position that she needs the Hound, just learn some things from him, but these two just so tightly woven together it's like talking about a Siamese twin.

[Solaris]

As for me I don't think at this time I ever put Sansa in a position that she needs the Hound, just learn some things from him, but these two just so tightly woven together it's like talking about a Siamese twin.

That is an interesting metaphor considering your feelings. I think they did need each other (and still do). I don't know if Sandor still needs Sansa but Sansa surely needs Sandor still to keep herself centered even if it is just the memory of him atm.

[clover]

Just that Bran tuned into his abilities faster (with the help of Meera and Jojen) and Jon is in a better, clearer mental space then the other two and being older might be a help too. And Sansa has nobody, no help in this, she is distressed, and can't recognize it for herself, if warging powers or something else is what is happenening and not just merely fantasizing.

My question is that not only is Bran warging, but he is seeing the future possibly in dreams too? And if he is, is that connected to warging or a separate power unto itself? I am still reading, so I am not clear if that is how its working or if Martin, even by book 5, has not revealed the extent of what some powers can really do.

It was just yesterday that for some reason I took a step back and it could still be this, but I thought about her misremembering being a psycological crutch, or mental defense mechanism, and then it occurred to me that I'm tired of her victim role. It's been a lot. And for me I had recently read her wedding to Tyrion and then I thought about unkiss again. And a few other things. And then I thought of Bran and Jon and wondered...maybe something else is really going on in her mind? Maybe she is dreaming of things to come and blurring it with a reality she thinks happend, Unkiss, the climb into bed, and maybe other things.

And if it is helping her to cope too so be it.

But I am limited. I am in the middle of SOS still, so there are many pieces I am missing in regard to the series and what has happened exactly past the point I am at. Spoilers can only take me so far.

[Solaris]

Just that Bran tuned into his abilities faster (with the help of Meera and Jojen) and Jon is in a better, clearer mental space then the other two and being older might be a help too. And Sansa has nobody, no help in this, she is distressed, and can't recognize it for herself, if warging powers or something else is what is happenening and not just merely fantasizing.

My question is that not only is Bran warging, but he is seeing the future possibly in dreams too? And if he is, is that connected to warging or a separate power unto itself? I am still reading, so I am not clear if that is how its working or if Martin, even by book 5, has not revealed the extent of what some powers can really do.

It was just yesterday that for some reason I took a step back and it could still be this, but I thought about her misremembering being a psycological crutch, or mental defense mechanism, and then it occurred to me that I'm tired of her victim role. It's been a lot. And for me I had recently read her wedding to Tyrion and then I thought about unkiss again. And a few other things. And then I thought of Bran and Jon and wondered...maybe something else is really going on in her mind? Maybe she is dreaming of things to come and blurring it with a reality she thinks happend, Unkiss, the climb into bed, and maybe other things.

And if it is helping her to cope too so be it.

But I am limited. I am in the middle of SOS still, so there are many pieces I am missing in regard to the series and what has happened exactly past the point I am at. Spoilers can only take me so far.

Brans ability to see past and future is a result of linking with the Weirwoods. That is a special ability and separate to warging. Yes you are right, Sansa has no one to teach her and the loss of Lady so early on has stunted her natural growth and we are seeing an evolutionary answer to that IMO, her innate ability to connect is reaching all over the show touching people and animals that are around her it's like a probing because she doesn't know what she is doing or that she even can so that is why it rears its head in stressful situations (IMO that is what is going on). Even Arya has powered along and Nymeria is a continent away.