Evamitchelle Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Yeah for some reason I don't think GRRM is interested in mapping the genetic material of every one in the series to decide whether it's possible for his two black-haired characters to have a blonde-haired kid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Soooo, what's so all powerful in the Tully hereditary line that four of five stark children resemble their mother more than Ned. Arya looks like a Stark and acts like Lyanna. Jon looks like a Stark and is presumed to be Ned's son. Coincidence? The only children that look like Robert are actually Roberts'.What's my point?Couldn't tell youBut I had one when I started....Martin uses genetics how he wants to in order to shape the story. Traits are passed on in the way that he wants for whatever reason he wants and that's that. He doesn't play by real-world genetics.Best example: Cersei's hair color genotype is probably extremely recessive, given that she inherited the golden Lannister hair color from both of her Lannister parents. She wouldn't have many dominant alleles to pass down. Robert's on the other end of the spectrum: He doesn't have many recessive alleles to pass down. If you assume that Robert gave some dominant alleles and Cersei gave some recessive ones, a child of theirs would have a hair color kind of in the middle, neither Lannister gold nor Baratheon black. Yet within the story, all of Robert's kids with blonde women have his black hair color. That is an example of Martin using his own interpretation of genetics in a way that benefits his narrative, even if that phenotype result probably wouldn't occur that way in real life (at the very least, not all of Robert's kids would have his precise hair color; it'd be statistically minute).ETA: Remember that genetics are largely about chance. It depends on what alleles a parent passes down on any given "go." Some parents have dominant alleles for some phenotypes and recessive alleles for others. A different roll of the dice, and you have four Stark kids with Stark features and just one with the Tully look. And each "go" is determined independently from the others — you can have six boys in a row, and the chance of having a boy (or a girl) on the seventh pregnancy is still 50-50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I was stunned to find out that Ashara was a brunette. Absolutely gobsmacked. It was probably the biggest revalation in ADWD for me (and I'm not even joking!). I was certain that we 'knew' the Daynes were generally all blondies. I don't recall exactly hearing about how Arthur looked, but I definiately thought that he, like all the Daynes, was blonde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I was stunned to find out that Ashara was a brunette. Absolutely gobsmacked. It was probably the biggest revalation in ADWD for me (and I'm not even joking!). I was certain that we 'knew' the Daynes were generally all blondies. I don't recall exactly hearing about how Arthur looked, but I definiately thought that he, like all the Daynes, was blonde.I kind of get the feeling that perhaps female Daynes tend to be brunettes and male Daynes tend to be blond. Nothing really to base this on — we don't know exactly what Arthur looked like (his Wiki portrait has him with silvery-blond hair), only that Edric has fair hair and Darkstar has silvery streaks. My thinking about Ned's motivation in initially pushing the Ashara angle (before Jon grew to have Stark looks) was, if Jon grew up with silvery hair and purple eyes, people could just assume "he has Dayne uncles" and not "he has a Targ father." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsw2289 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I kind of get the feeling that perhaps female Daynes tend to be brunettes and male Daynes tend to be blond. Nothing really to base this on — we don't know exactly what Arthur looked like (his Wiki portrait has him with silvery-blond hair), only that Edric has fair hair and Darkstar has silvery streaks. My thinking about Ned's motivation in initially pushing the Ashara angle (before Jon grew to have Stark looks) was, if Jon grew up with silvery hair and purple eyes, people could just assume "he has Dayne uncles" and not "he has a Targ father."isn't darkstar fair haired with black "streak/s"?but i kinda had the same feeling... Arthur, Darkstar, Ned, have fair hair. We know Ashara was brunette and iirc wasn't Allyria(sp?) described as brunette as well(not sure)? Their eye color seems to be a dominant trait though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 And what exactly was the point of those references if not to flesh out our impression of Brandon? Meera also refers to him as the "wild wolf" and we know he showed up at the Red Keep and yelled at Rhaegar to "come out and die."What impression do you have of him? :PWell, I got the impression Brandon was a pretty normal young guy.He probably was sexually active. Why wouldn't he be? People are. Young boys certainly are. Robert was. Theon was.I don't recall anything about Robb before he beds Jeyne.That inn / brothel around Winterfell we hear about in Tyrion's tale and in Theon's tale probably was there before.Winterfell was a kind of garrison. It would be a question of demand and supply.There were tourneys, boys and girls met, as we know from Lady Dustins tale.So I suspect the chances of Brandon being a maiden on his bedding Catelyn were slim.As could be the case for Ned when he did bed Catelyn, by the way. Ned was only two years younger.We hear about Brandon's impulsiveness or recklessness. Young men are, as we know from other stories, for instance Waymar Royce.I like the way GRRM describes Brandon and Ned as the wild and the not so wild brother.Brandon supposedly was impulsive and wild and in so doing made decisions who turned out desastrous - riding out, confronting a crown prince who wasn't even there.Ned in Kings Landing took his time - and in so doing made decisions who turned out desastrous - giving that ultimatum to Cersei which led to his death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 isn't darkstar fair haired with black "streak/s"?but i kinda had the same feeling... Arthur, Darkstar, Ned, have fair hair. We know Ashara was brunette and iirc wasn't Allyria(sp?) described as brunette as well(not sure)? Their eye color seems to be a dominant trait though...He has streaky black and silvery hair. One might be called "streaks" over another, I don't know, but those are the two colors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsw2289 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 He has streaky black and silvery hair. One might be called "streaks" over another, I don't know, but those are the two colors."Gerold Dayne is clean-shaven with a beak of a nose, high cheekbones and a strong jaw. He has thick silver hair with a streak of black dividing it. He is a cruel man." Wiki of Ice and Fire "He kept his face clean-shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier, divided by a streak of midnight black." AFFC US paperback p.426small difference, not that it matters... just had to double check my suspicions. :thumbsup:edited for spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 "Gerold Dayne is clean-shaven with a beak of a nose, high cheekbones and a strong jaw. He has thick silver hair with a streak of black dividing it. He is a cruel man." Wiki of Ice and Fire "He kept his face clean-shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier, divided by a streak of midnight black." AFFC US paperback p.426small difference, not that it matter... just had to double check my suspicions. :thumbsup:Glad that's settled! :PActually I think it strengthens my case — male Daynes we've seen tend to have silvery hair — so ... streak on, my good man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always_En_Garde Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Soooo, what's so all powerful in the Tully hereditary line that four of five stark children resemble their mother more than Ned. Arya looks like a Stark and acts like Lyanna. Jon looks like a Stark and is presumed to be Ned's son. Coincidence? The only children that look like Robert are actually Roberts'.What's my point?Book-Genetics. An entirely different field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Glad that's settled! :PActually I think it strengthens my case — male Daynes we've seen tend to have silvery hair — so ... streak on, my good man.LOL if I would color my hair silver and be on a desert trip in wild, wild Dorne, with no hair salon close ... my head would look like silver hair with a streak of black dividing it. Never thought about it but mr. Darkstar may have his hair colored :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 LOL if I would color my hair silver and be on a desert trip in wild, wild Dorne, with no hair salon close ... my head would look like silver hair with a streak of black dividing it. Never thought about it but mr. Darkstar may have his hair colored :oMaybe his roots are showing and he needs a touch-up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 How old is Benjen compared to Ned? In AGOT Jon shouts at him youre not my father and he says mores the pity...Now im not saying i believe this-its just a thought. But could Benjen be Jons father and not know it? Or could it be that Benjen also knows the true story of Jons parentage and so Howland is not the only one who can reveal the truth to Jon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 How old is Benjen compared to Ned? In AGOT Jon shouts at him youre not my father and he says mores the pity...Now im not saying i believe this-its just a thought. But could Benjen be Jons father and not know it? Or could it be that Benjen also knows the true story of Jons parentage and so Howland is not the only one who can reveal the truth to Jon?In the wiki Benjen's birth year isn't given. He's probably at least six years younger than Ned, because of the age difference between Ned and Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 How old is Benjen compared to Ned? In AGOT Jon shouts at him youre not my father and he says mores the pity...Now im not saying i believe this-its just a thought. But could Benjen be Jons father and not know it? Or could it be that Benjen also knows the true story of Jons parentage and so Howland is not the only one who can reveal the truth to Jon?Benjen's age is never given, to my knowledge. But we know Lyanna was born in 267 AL (her Wiki page says she was born in 268 AL and died in 284 AL but the master timeline says 267 AL for her birth and 283 AL for her death, and it fits better) died at about the age of 16 and is four years younger than Ned. I imagine that Benjen is about 1-3 years younger than Lyanna; old enough to go to the Harrenhal tournament but too young to compete or do much with the girls, and Meera refers to him as a "pup." If you meet in the middle and guess that Benjen is two years younger than Lyanna, he'd be about six years younger than Ned, who was born in 263 AL. That puts his birth as 269 and makes him about 29 when the main story starts and about 12 when the Harrenhal tourney took place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Benjen's age is never given, to my knowledge. But we know Lyanna was born in 267 AL (her Wiki page says she was born in 268 AL and died in 284 AL but the master timeline says 267 AL for her birth and 283 AL for her death, and it fits better) died at about the age of 16 and is four years younger than Ned. I imagine that Benjen is about 1-3 years younger than Lyanna; old enough to go to the Harrenhal tournament but too young to compete or do much with the girls, and Meera refers to him as a "pup." If you meet in the middle and guess that Benjen is two years younger than Lyanna, he'd be about six years younger than Ned, who was born in 263 AL. That puts his birth as 269 and makes him about 29 when the main story starts and about 12 when the Harrenhal tourney took place.Good thinking. I always think these timelines are a bit dodge though and if he was two years older say its a possibility. Fact remains it highly unlikely but it would be funny if the answer was in Jons veryfirst chapter. That said he could still know Jons true parentage and so is still a key player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daenerys snow Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 ^ if he's still alive. benjen is still missing and presumed dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkash Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Yes, the only "living" person now that can explain what the heck could have happened at this tourney, or the lineage of Jon are:Benjen Stark.Howland Reed.Allyria Dayne.Bloodraven.Definitly need some explanations by one of those characters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinebreaker Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Perhaps Ashara herself if she's not really dead... ('Missing; presumed dead' in the appendix makes me curious)Wylla the wetnurse potentially too.And Hodor...Hodor's tried to tell everyone who Jon's parent's are. Every book, and no-one listens... Poor Hodor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkash Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 ('Missing; presumed dead' in the appendix makes me curious)In what appendix ? oO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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