The Tourney of Harrenhall : A Tale of Starks and Daynes.

[corbon]

This to me implies that she did. People use horses and boats as means of transportation. We don't know the when or where.

You need to understand the difference between capability and action. GRRM said she was not nailed to the floor. He mentioned boats and horses. This implies that she could have used these things, it does not imply that she definitely did use those things.

The context for this statement of GRRMs is that some people were arguing that Ashara could not be Jon's mother (to Ned as his father) based on her being in Dhorne when Jon was conceived while Ned is somewhere far north. Hence the 'as some fans seem to assume' part. All GRRM was doing is saying "hey, you have no idea what Ashara was doing and she could have been anywhere, so give it up on these false 'disproves'."

I think the books have taught us that it's seen as extremely dishonorable to break a bethrothal. This in part may be why Brandon was so enraged at Rhaegar. He was bringing shame on his house. & if we're going by what Lady Dustin says then he was not like Lyanna here. He was going to do what his father wanted even if he may not have wanted to. She said that he didn't want Catelyn.

Brandon wasn't necessarily betrothed to Lady Dustin ever, nor to Catelyn at the initial time he and Lady Dustin were 'romancing'. Betrothal has nothing to do with this.

And Brandon was like Lyanna in this. They are both given the wild wolf traits and Ned said they both were wild and died from it. The end result was that Brandon didn't go against his father's betrothal plans, but Lady Dustin might have angled to snare him anyway and hoped that he would if it came to that.

Harwin said that there's nothing like a tourney to make the blood run hot so it should have been the best time to have access to it. Everyone knows that flings can happen then. Asha took moontea after she had sex anyway. If Ashara was Elia's companion then she should have been a grown woman by this time.

Tourneys have nothing to do with this. Lady Dustin and Brandon weren't specified as lovers at a tourney (were they? Did I miss something?).

(Sorry, I got messed up between couples there).

Ashara should have had access to moon tea at Harrenhal, if she was prepared, or thinking. But according to Barristan she had a stillborn child out of wedlock so assuming she used Moon tea probably isn't a good idea.

Heh, most people argue Ashara was younger, and therefore is now under 40 and can't be Lemore due to Tyrion's age estimate. I don;t think we can say that she was necessarily the same age as Elia. I'd guess anywhere from 14 ('woman flowered') to late 20s (leaning toward 'old maid' there) woudl be acceptable, but would guess 18-22 as most likely - young enough to stil be unmarried but old enough to be a little more stable and better company than a giddy teen.

But Asha isn't a young maiden. She's a woman grown and sexually experienced for over a decade, harder and wiser by a very long way.

Well I've seen comments that ran with the Brandon liked to take what he wanted line. If he did then he should have more bastards at least to the amount of Harry the Heir.

Again you take an implication far beyond what is written. Brandon liking to take what he wanted points to character type. That doesn't mean he would necessarily fuck anything that moved and it especially doesn't necessarily mean he would screw around with a myriad of highborn girls. That shit is dangerous and stupid (and unless you are a sicko, not fun unless the girl is an eager participant, which only a few would be). Brandon does some dangerous and stupid stuff, but he can't have done that sort of thing all the time or he'd have never made it to his 20s safely in the first place (and probably not been 'let out' to Harennhal in the second place!)

That isn't to say Brandon couldn't have screwed around a bit (especially with common girls) but there simply isn't any evidence that he was highly promiscuous, like, say, Robert.

But it is a common straw man argument that is argued against.

[ARYa_Nym]

You need to understand the difference between capability and action. GRRM said she was not nailed to the floor. He mentioned boats and horses. This implies that she could have used these things, it does not imply that she definitely did use those things.

The context for this statement of GRRMs is that some people were arguing that Ashara could not be Jon's mother (to Ned as his father) based on her being in Dhorne when Jon was conceived while Ned is somewhere far north. Hence the 'as some fans seem to assume' part. All GRRM was doing is saying "hey, you have no idea what Ashara was doing and she could have been anywhere, so give it up on these false 'disproves'."

I think he was throwing out ways that she could have moved around but ultimately we know that she didn't stay at Starfall the entire time. He also added that she was at court.

Tourneys have nothing to do with this. Lady Dustin and Brandon weren't specified as lovers at a tourney (were they? Did I miss something?).

I think it wouldn't be wise for a woman to not use moon tea with someone that she knows is unavailable. We know that it's possible for them not to. I used Delena Florent as an example but I think unmarried noble women would usually want to take precautions.

Brandon wasn't necessarily betrothed to Lady Dustin ever, nor to Catelyn at the initial time he and Lady Dustin were 'romancing'. Betrothal has nothing to do with this.

And Brandon was like Lyanna in this. They are both given the wild wolf traits and Ned said they both were wild and died from it. The end result was that Brandon didn't go against his father's betrothal plans, but Lady Dustin might have angled to snare him anyway and hoped that he would if it came to that.

Brandon would have to break his bethrothal to Catelyn to marry Ashara so his feelings on doing so should matter.

Lady Dustin said that she hoped to marry him but was in pain when she found out about his upcoming marriage to Catelyn. She said her father wanted to marry her to Eddard. I don't think there's evidence that she wanted to ensare Brandon anyway. She may have kept up their affair as long as he would allow it.

We already have one instance where he was unwilling to break his bethrothal to Catelyn for another woman.

And Asha isn't a silly teenager but a woman grown, harder and wiser by a very long way.

I don't think Ashara was either. She may have been a few years younger than Elia but at the very least that would put her in her late teens to early 20s.

Asha and Arianne are at the other end of that age range and they are smart enough to not get themselves into Ashara's supposed situation.

Again you take an implication far beyond what is written. Brandon liking to take what he wanted points to character type. That doesn't mean he would necessarily fuck anything that moved and it especially doesn't necessarily mean he would screw around with a myriad of highborn girls. That shit is dangerous and stupid (and unless you are a sicko, not fun unless the girl is an eager participant, which only a few would be). Brandon does some dangerous and stupid stuff, but he can't have done that sort of thing all the time or he'd have never made it to his 20s safely in the first place (and probably not been 'let out' to Harennhal in the second place!)

That isn't to say Brandon couldn't have screwed around a bit (especially with common girls) but there simply isn't any evidence that he was highly promiscuous, like, say, Robert.

But it is a common straw man argument that is argued against.

I didn't say that I believed the comments that I read. I said if they were right then he should have more than one bastard. I don't think Brandon was like that.

[Always_En_Garde]

I think it was Benjen who got Ashara pregnant. That's how he wound up at the Wall.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think it was Benjen who got Ashara pregnant. That's how he wound up at the Wall.

Benjen, who was probably 12 or 13 at the time, got Ashara Dayne, the woman (emphasis on woman) all the knights were swooning over, pregnant? What a pimp! :bowdown:

[Ojji]

Again, Tyene is blonde... neither Lemore nor Oberyn are blonde.

My brother has blonde hair, yet my father and mother has both dark hair.. does this mean he's bastard?

[Always_En_Garde]

Mock if you will, impolite as it is.

Fact is, he's not that much younger than Ned. If Eddard was 16ish Benjen would have been 14 or 15, which in THESE books is actually a late start on spawning bastards.

I just think it's terribly suspicious that we know tons about the stupidest characters (hello Areo Hotah) and not even the reason why the big missing mentor joined the Watch in the first place. The omission is glaring to me. And Ben's statement about Jon not knowing what he's giving up struck me as portentious, too.

[daenerys snow]

wasn't lyanna about 14-ish at harrenhall, so that would make benjen even younger.

[Revan Baratheon]

Benjen, who was probably 12 or 13 at the time, got Ashara Dayne, the woman (emphasis on woman) all the knights were swooning over,

pregnant? What a pimp! :bowdown:

You mean what a stud! This is probably why the black bros made him first ranger,cause he had the best story of how he got sent to the wall.No sobby stuff just plain coolness...

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

The only problem I have with this theory is that I don't see how black-haired Ashara and brown-haired Ned could have a silver-blonde haired son. Even if Ashara's brother had blonde hair himself.

Does Arthur Dayne even have blonde hair? I don't remember GRRM ever stating what color Arthur's hair was, or what Arthur even relaly looked like for that matter. All people ever really talk about in reference to AD is his phenomenal ability as a swordsman and knight, IIRC.

[Evamitchelle]

Mock if you will, impolite as it is.

Fact is, he's not that much younger than Ned. If Eddard was 16ish Benjen would have been 14 or 15, which in THESE books is actually a late start on spawning bastards.

I just think it's terribly suspicious that we know tons about the stupidest characters (hello Areo Hotah) and not even the reason why the big missing mentor joined the Watch in the first place. The omission is glaring to me. And Ben's statement about Jon not knowing what he's giving up struck me as portentious, too.

Not at all. Benjen is the youngest of the 4, and Lyanna is 5 years younger than Ned. At the Tourney of Harrenhal Lyanna was only 13, which means that Benjen was 12 at the most. If Barristan is correct and Ashara got pregnant at the Tourney, I highly doubt that it would have been with a 12 year old boy.

[Arkash]

My brother has blonde hair, yet my father and mother has both dark hair.. does this mean he's bastard?

Dunno, I'm not an expert in genetics... must be again a story of recessive genes !

[FanTasy]

Brandon seems to have been the ladies' man and social butterfly.

Evidence based on two references:

- a tourney's dance

- the story Lady Dustin tells

Good grief, I have to totally redraw my mind map of 'ladies men' and 'social butterflies' :)

[corbon]

I think he was throwing out ways that she could have moved around but ultimately we know that she didn't stay at Starfall the entire time. He also added that she was at court.

What exactly do you mean?

We know she was at court before Harrenhal, and probably for at least a short time after (she wouldn't know immediately that she'd gotten pregnant). But she was disgraced at Harrenhal, according to Barristan (he may have meant the disgrace happened there, even if it was only found out later). Odds are she left the court after her disgrace was found out (ie she got a big enough bulge that it couldn't be hidden) and she most likely then went back to Starfall first and maybe a religious place (like a convent) after to have her baby. So within, say, 6 months or so of Harrenhal she's left the court and returned home where her disgrace is less public and she has the care and support of her family (we know she is not ostracised by them because she is there later and Allyria tells her story like a nobly sad romance). Besides, she's Dornish, and they have a very different attitude to bastards.

Most likely, but not guaranteed.

The next place she is seen is home, post ToJ when Ned comes calling.

There is no indication at all she travelled in between, not even from GRRM (and no proof she did not either).

To insist we know she did travel more than that, if that is what you are doing is a total failure of written language comprehension.

Of course we know that she must have travelled between Harrenhal event and post-ToJ event. That goes without saying. She is in two different places at two different times and must have travelled in between those two times. What we don't know is when or where, and in particular we don't know if there was any travel during the period of the actual war (which is the important part).

I think it wouldn't be wise for a woman to not use moon tea with someone that she knows is unavailable. We know that it's possible for them not to. I used Delena Florent as an example but I think unmarried noble women would usually want to take precautions.

Given Barristan said she was disgraced, and had a stillborn baby girl while still unmarried, I think you are arguing into the wind here. Whatever was 'wise' or she 'should have' done, she clearly didn't at least once.

I don't think Ashara was either. She may have been a few years younger than Elia but at the very least that would put her in her late teens to early 20s.

Asha and Arianne are at the other end of that age range and they are smart enough to not get themselves into Ashara's supposed situation.

Except that Ashara is a maiden, possibly a virgin (or close - shes at court in KL remember), who does get pregnant accidentally.

Asha has 10 years or so worth of sexual experience and has never gotten pregnant once.

Using Asha as an example for what Ashara must do is non-sensical.

I didn't say that I believed the comments that I read. I said if they were right then he should have more than one bastard. I don't think Brandon was like that.

I'll rephrase then.

You shouldn't bother with even acknowledging arguments that are only given as straw men.

Mock if you will, impolite as it is.

Fact is, he's not that much younger than Ned. If Eddard was 16ish Benjen would have been 14 or 15, which in THESE books is actually a late start on spawning bastards.

It might be a trifle impolite, but be fair. Your premise, based on flawed data (Benjen can be no more than 12 at best, as demonstrated) is actually quite funny. The 12 years old gets the hot lady, that all the knights are chasing, preggers.

If you can't laugh at the funny stuff then whats the point?

Evidence based on two references:

- a tourney's dance

- the story Lady Dustin tells

Good grief, I have to totally redraw my mind map of 'ladies men' and 'social butterflies' :)

While I wouldn't go so far as to damn Brandon as a social butterfly, there is a lot more evidence than that.

Someone got Ashara pregnant (and didn't marry her), according to Barristan. And she looked to a Stark, and was hanging out with Brandon and Ned. Shy Ned is far to much stick-up-his-ass to be a likely candidate. But Brandon, according to everything we know about him, is quite a good candidate. Good looking, more manly (bigger and better swordsman than Ned), rash, wild, 'always got everything', has slept with an unmarried maid before and not married her...

[ARYa_Nym]

Except that, Ashara is a maid, probably a virgin (or close), who does get pregnant accidentally.

Asha has 10 years or so worth of sexual experience and has never gotten pregnant once.

Using Asha as an example for what Ashara must do is non-sensical.

Where did you find this information on Ashara's sexual history?

If you use the she's Dornish argument then it's not believable that she was sexually inexperienced when she was in her late teens to early 20s.

Given Barristan said she was disgraced, and had a stillborn baby girl while still unmarried, I think you are arguing into the wind here. Whatever was 'wise' or she 'should have' done, she clearly didn't at least once.

What Barriston said may have happened but if it was with someone who wasn't unavailable her mistake would make more sense.

I'm not saying that Ned was the one who dishonored her at Harrenhal though.

What exactly do you mean?

We know she was at court before Harrenhal, and probably for at least a short time after (she wouldn't know immediately that she'd gotten pregnant). But she was disgraced at Harrenhal, according to Barristan (he may have meant the disgrace happened there, even if it was only found out later). Odds are she left the court after her disgrace was found out (ie she got a big enough bulge that it couldn't be hidden) and she most likely then went back to Starfall first and maybe a religious place (like a convent) after to have her baby. So within, say, 6 months or so of Harrenhal she's left the court and returned home where her disgrace is less public and she has the care and support of her family (we know she is not ostracised by them because she is there later and Allyria tells her story like a nobly sad romance). Besides, she's Dornish, and they have a very different attitude to bastards.

Most likely, but not guaranteed.

The next place she is seen is home, post ToJ when Ned comes calling.

There is no indication at all she travelled in between, not even from GRRM (and no proof she did not either).

To insist we know she did travel more than that, if that is what you are doing is a total failure of written language comprehension.

Of course we know that she must have travelled between Harrenhal event and post-ToJ event. That goes without saying. She is in two different places at two different times and must have travelled in between those two times. What we don't know is when or where, and in particular we don't know if there was any travel during the period of the actual war (which is the important part).

That is essentially what I said. We don't know when or where. I never said we know that she traveled during the war. I said I have a suspicion that she was in contact with Ned and was the one who told him where the TOJ was.

We know too little about Ashara to say that she would have been fine with having a bastard. Arianne is Dornish as well and she made sure that she didn't have a bastard.

[corbon]

That is essentially what I said. We don't know when or where. I never said we know that she traveled during the war. I said I have a suspicion that she was in contact with Ned and was the one who told him where the TOJ was.

Ahh, then its essentially a misunderstanding, sorry.

Too me, it goes without saying she travelled at some stage, since she was in Harrenhal and later at Starfall.

The critcial part is whether she travelled at a time when Jon was conceived. When you insist we know she travelled when the only question mark is about during the war, and use GRRMs statement as 'proof' when he was responding to fans trying to 'prove' she couldn't be Jon's mother (agains, travelling during the war), you fooled me into believing you were insisted that we 'know' she travelled during the war - when that is the very thing we don't know and is in question.

[ARYa_Nym]

Ahh, then its essentially a misunderstanding, sorry.

Too me, it goes without saying she travelled at some stage, since she was in Harrenhal and later at Starfall.

The critcial part is whether she travelled at a time when Jon was conceived. When you insist we know she travelled when the only question mark is about during the war, and use GRRMs statement as 'proof' when he was responding to fans trying to 'prove' she couldn't be Jon's mother (agains, travelling during the war), you fooled me into believing you were insisted that we 'know' she travelled during the war - when that is the very thing we don't know and is in question.

It's fine.

This is what I orignally said:

We know that she moved around. We just don't know to where and when. I don't think she went to a war zone but I do think that she was somehow in contact with him especially to tell him where Lyanna was.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Evidence based on two references:

- a tourney's dance

- the story Lady Dustin tells

Good grief, I have to totally redraw my mind map of 'ladies men' and 'social butterflies' :)

And what exactly was the point of those references if not to flesh out our impression of Brandon? Meera also refers to him as the "wild wolf" and we know he showed up at the Red Keep and yelled at Rhaegar to "come out and die."

What impression do you have of him? :P

Mock if you will, impolite as it is.

Ribbing is not mocking. If you think it is, please grow a thicker skin.

Ned was 16-ish and Lyanna was about 14-15 and we know Benjen is younger than she is. He's referred to as a "pup" in Meera's Knight of the Laughing Tree story. So yes, I imagine him to be about 12-13 at the Harrenhal tourney.

Does Arthur Dayne even have blonde hair? I don't remember GRRM ever stating what color Arthur's hair was, or what Arthur even relaly looked like for that matter. All people ever really talk about in reference to AD is his phenomenal ability as a swordsman and knight, IIRC.

We don't know exactly what Arthur looked like, but Edric Dayne supposedly has fair hair and Darkstark has silvery streaks in his. So it seems like at least some male Daynes can have lighter hair.

[DornishKnight]

My brother has blonde hair, yet my father and mother has both dark hair.. does this mean he's bastard?

It means both your mother and father have a blonde recessive gene AND a dominant brown gene. This would give them a 25% chance of having a blonde child, a 50% chance of having a child like them, and a 25% chance of having a brown haired child without blonde genes (if I remember high school genetics correctly).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It means both your mother and father have a blonde recessive gene AND a dominant brown gene. This would give them a 25% chance of having a blonde child, a 50% chance of having a child like them, and a 25% chance of having a brown haired child without blonde genes (if I remember high school genetics correctly).

I think hair color is a little more complicated than that. It's the product of several different alleles, not just two. Dark hair is dominant and lighter hair is recessive, yes, but each parent contributes multiple alleles. It's not a straight cross with one allele from one parent and one allele from another.

[birdsong66]

It's not a straight cross with one allele from one parent and one allele from another.

Soooo, what's so all powerful in the Tully hereditary line that four of five stark children resemble their mother more than Ned. Arya looks like a Stark and acts like Lyanna. Jon looks like a Stark and is presumed to be Ned's son. Coincidence? The only children that look like Robert are actually Roberts'.

What's my point?

Couldn't tell you

But I had one when I started....