Curious - battle of the Green Fork in book 1

[sarah.jenice]

I think in the show Tywin had 30,000. As did Jaime, which means they doubled his army size.

I've watched each episode of the show numerous times, and you are correct. In the scene where Tywin is butchering the stag, he tells Jamie that he is giving him half of their forces, 30,000 men. "I'm giving you half of our forces. 30,000 men. Take them to Catelyn Stark's girlhood home and show them that Lannisters pay their debts." So in the show, Tywin would have had 30,000 men too, making the Lannister army 60,000 men (later adding Tyrion's savages from the Mountains of the Moon). That would be a formidable force, and the Battle of the Green Fork with 2,000 vs. 30,000 should have been over pretty quick. Also in an episode, Robb's war council notes that they have 18,000 men but the Lannister spy they catch tells them he counted 20,000 and Robb lets him go back to Tywin with that higher number (and a threat to see if he shits gold). That leads to Tywin's later comment to Tyrion that there were only 2,000 Stark bannermen in the battle and Robb was with his other 18,000 men. I agree with other's comments that the show's change does suspend disbelief if you really think about it, but maybe they wanted a sympathetic moment with Robb worrying over sending 2,000 men to their graves. In Season Two, I wonder if they are going to add a lot to Renly's troops from Highgarden to even it out. He is supposed to have a huge force so they need to remember how much they boosted Tywin's army.

As to how they going to work out Roose in the show, that is probably why he wasn't cast in Season One and sent to the Green Fork.I guess there could be a scene where Robb could dispatch him from Riverrun with forces and a similar scenario to him loosing in battle and ending up at Harrenhall could unfold or something of that sort. I'm looking forward to seeing how the actor portrays him and hope to see some dead eyes and a soft voice. And to those irritated that show discussion is happening in this thread, I apologize. I got carried away.

I need to read the book again or have it with me to give better answers on the OP. I've seen the show more than I've read the book and know I blur the two.

[Lord Damian]

King in the South and Ser Hippie have it right.

It always bugged me on the show that Robb basically sent 2,000 guys off to the meat grinder for no good reason. They had to have known they were going to get slaughtered. How'd he pick which ones to send? :bs:

"A great general always loves his men, A great commander is never afraid to send to their death, that which they love", Gen. Robert E. Lee

[The Swaggering Bravo]

King in the South and Ser Hippie have it right.

It always bugged me on the show that Robb basically sent 2,000 guys off to the meat grinder for no good reason. They had to have known they were going to get slaughtered. How'd he pick which ones to send? :bs:

They're going to have a tough time by making Tywin make his decisions based off that paltry force. It will be especially difficult considering the battle of the Ruby Ford alone left 2,000 Northerners being killed or captured. And that's only around one third of what's left of his host. Not to mention Roose dispatches over 3,000 men to die in the battle of Duskendale. But hey, at least that's more than what Robb gave Roose in the show!

[mor2]

I agree with 'just an other', I too think that they decided to make it a kamikaze 2k army, to avoid the TV show folk having to track too many details (gush 2 armies!!)

[Zaydan]

I think the tv producers did it because they wanted to cut out the Roose Bolton character from the show. We see so far in season 2 that there’ll no Tullys, no Reeds, no Reek (can someone please confirm this?), so most likely no Roose Bolton either.

They already planned this ahead prior in season 1, thus making Robb regretfully sending 2000 men to their deaths in order to achieve a greater victory, which to your casual non-reader tv viewer would seem what a vulnerable and endearing character Robb was. To us readers, what an unbelievably stupid plot.

So Robb will be betrayed by Walder Frey (and Tywin) only in season 3, Winterfell will be razed by the ironborn only, and I guess more and more plots will diverge from the book.

Which sucks so bad, if you ask me.

[Ser Hippie]

Roose has been cast for Season 2.

[sarah.jenice]

I think the tv producers did it because they wanted to cut out the Roose Bolton character from the show. We see so far in season 2 that there’ll no Tullys, no Reeds, no Reek (can someone please confirm this?), so most likely no Roose Bolton either.

They already planned this ahead prior in season 1, thus making Robb regretfully sending 2000 men to their deaths in order to achieve a greater victory, which to your casual non-reader tv viewer would seem what a vulnerable and endearing character Robb was. To us readers, what an unbelievably stupid plot.

So Robb will be betrayed by Walder Frey (and Tywin) only in season 3, Winterfell will be razed by the ironborn only, and I guess more and more plots will diverge from the book.

Which sucks so bad, if you ask me.

Roose will definitely appear in Season Two. Michael McElhatton is the actor playing him.

A TVOVERMIND link to the casting announcement and a photo is below, but I am sure there is more out there.

http://www.tvovermind.com/game-of-thrones/game-thrones-casts-villain-season-2/86521

[Zaydan]

Alright then, I humbly apologize. :D

[Ser Loudmouth]

Perhaps Roose/Robb worried that if Roose just sat with the Northern foot at the Twins, Tywin would have time to learn about Robb's cavalry sneaking up on Riverrun and warn Jaime...?

I agree about the need to move south from the Twins. I just don't agree about the need to engage in battle. Roose should have shadowed Tywin's army, kept him guessing about his intentions, and only attacked if he saw a favourable situation.

[Gurkhal]

A TVOVERMIND link to the casting announcement and a photo is below, but I am sure there is more out there.

http://www.tvovermin...-season-2/86521

Thanks for the link.

Shadowing Tywin's army could've worked but in the other hand it might have gotten Tywin suspecious and I personally think that Tywin is likely to have engage Roose on his own. You could argue that this was a bit of a overkill by Robb as he probably could've ordered Roose to draw Tywin north in general but if the northern army moved to engage Tywin's army the Lannisters would've been focused on facing and less likely to try and sense a strategem.

If I was Roose I would probably try and find some good ground and wait for Tywin to come to me but I do understand his choice to attempt a suprise attack. And he did keep most of the Stark forces alive and in fighting condition even after the battle so I think he handeled his task pretty well.

[Bayard]

I agree about the need to move south from the Twins. I just don't agree about the need to engage in battle. Roose should have shadowed Tywin's army, kept him guessing about his intentions, and only attacked if he saw a favourable situation.

Why do you assume it was a kamykaze battle?? Roose had 16000 against Tywin's 20000, those are even odds, and the Northerners regard themselves as the best fighting men in Westeros. Granted, they had fewer horses, but that doesn't mean the battle was decided from the start. No, I think Roose wanted to win that battle, and was in a good position to do so. Think of it, if he had won, combined with what Robb did, the Riverlands would have been completly freed from the Lannisters. Tywin would have been forced to run to King's Landing, not only Harrenhal.

Actually I think those numbers 16.000 to 20.000 are the best for any battle where the Northerners are involved, they knew even before leaving Winterfell, that they would always be fewer any given day.

[Ser Loudmouth]

Why do you assume it was a kamykaze battle?? Roose had 16000 against Tywin's 20000, those are even odds, and the Northerners regard themselves as the best fighting men in Westeros.

I compared the Northerners to the Japanese of ww2 because just like them the Northerners overestimated their own fighting prowess/underestimated the enemy and relied too much on the element of surprise. They ended up attacking a larger, better equipped force that was prepared to meet them... and lost.

Roose not only had 4000 men fewer than Tywin, he allso had no cavalry, which was the decisive element in medieval style battles, while Tywin had a very strong cavalry contingent.

It is allso implied that all of the Lannister troops had top quality equippment, paid for from Lord Tywin's coffers.

[Peach Fuzz]

Robb has 6 thousand mounted men at whispering wood...he sent his foot to the green fork

[Bayard]

Roose not only had 4000 men fewer than Tywin, he allso had no cavalry, which was the decisive element in medieval style battles, while Tywin had a very strong cavalry contingent.

It is allso implied that all of the Lannister troops had top quality equippment, paid for from Lord Tywin's coffers.

Not always, the First Scottish war of independence was won by the infantry and their spears. The scene from Braveheart is not made up, although a lot simplified, it shows that a wall of pikes can stop even a heavy cavalry. Of course it doesn't always work, as was shown at Falkirk, but if used wisely footman with spears can be extremly effective. The phalanx type scottish schiltrons won the battles at Sterling and Bannockburn. As far as I know, the English had at Sterling 5 to 10 more cavalry then the Scottish, and a lot better equiped.

And if Westeros is Britain, then the North is Scotland.... this has been said over and over. Hell the Northerner's march to the South can be compared with the scottish war of independence.... and come on Robb - Robert the Bruce :)) .... I will say it again, the battle at Green Fork could have been decisive for the war, if Tywin was defeated, there was absolutely nothing between Robb and King's Landing... It was worth the risk to fight, the problem is that Roose showed that he is not such a good military commander (good news for stannis), because he engaged the battle, he chose the ground near that river.... and still he lost, not a huge defeat, but still a defeat. I don't know why he was considered such a good and wise commander, where could he have prooven this?? was he part of Rebellion?? ..... Anyway, there is no wonder he went to battle, he is crazy, everything is a game to him.

[Talleyrand]

Roose not only had 4000 men fewer than Tywin, he allso had no cavalry, which was the decisive element in medieval style battles, while Tywin had a very strong cavalry contingent.

It is allso implied that all of the Lannister troops had top quality equippment, paid for from Lord Tywin's coffers.

Roose still had cavalry just not a large amount.

It was worth the risk to fight, the problem is that Roose showed that he is not such a good military commander (good news for stannis), because he engaged the battle, he chose the ground near that river.... and still he lost, not a huge defeat, but still a defeat. I don't know why he was considered such a good and wise commander, where could he have prooven this?? was he part of Rebellion?? ..... Anyway, there is no wonder he went to battle, he is crazy, everything is a game to him.

The plan might have worked if not for Gregor Clegane's refusal to be stopped by an entire formation of spearmen

[johnkolinsky]

I will say it again, the battle at Green Fork could have been decisive for the war, if Tywin was defeated, there was absolutely nothing between Robb and King's Landing... It was worth the risk to fight, the problem is that Roose showed that he is not such a good military commander (good news for stannis), because he engaged the battle, he chose the ground near that river.... and still he lost, not a huge defeat, but still a defeat. I don't know why he was considered such a good and wise commander, where could he have prooven this?? was he part of Rebellion?? ..... Anyway, there is no wonder he went to battle, he is crazy, everything is a game to him.

Roose was definitely blooded in Robert's Rebellion, as he helped advise Robert on what to do with Barristan Selmy. He almost certainly took part in Greyjoy's Rebellion, too. Possibly (though unlikely) the War of the Ninepenny Kings as well since his age is never explicitly revealed. I assume that his age is mid 40s given that he doesn't think he will necessarily last long enough to see a legitimate heir to majority, but he could be older or younger (I doubt much younger, he was already Lord of the Dreadfort long before Ned became Lord of Winterfell). We're not really given a lot of info on typical Westerosi life expectancy.

I think he had to engage Tywin at some point. Robb Stark was unlikely to be able to move so swiftly with such secrecy as he did. Even still, Roose's engagement was only a few hours ahead of the intelligence that it was a feint, even waiting another day would have cost him his liege lord, and possibly his head, hindsight being 20/20. Perhaps a pitched battle was not the right choice, but Tywin still needed to see Roose as the immediate threat.

[Ser Loudmouth]

Not always, the First Scottish war of independence was won by the infantry and their spears. The scene from Braveheart is not made up, although a lot simplified

The real battle of Stirling involved an ambush and a bridge, and shows the virtues of choosing a favourable location for battle instead of rushing into combat a the first occasion.

And if Westeros is Britain, then the North is Scotland.... this has been said over and over. Hell the Northerner's march to the South can be compared with the scottish war of independence.

It can allso be compared to the various Scottish invasions of England, which mostly ended in disaster (like at Flodden)

I will say it again, the battle at Green Fork could have been decisive for the war, if Tywin was defeated, there was absolutely nothing between Robb and King's Landing... It was worth the risk to fight

Bolton's defeat allowed Tywin to retreat in good order and avoid being caught between the two northern armmies, which would have been a safer way to win the war.

[Gurkhal]

Bolton's defeat allowed Tywin to retreat in good order and avoid being caught between the two northern armmies, which would have been a safer way to win the war.

Short question: are you arguing that Roose shouldn't have engaged Tywin? I may be slow but I didn't really catch on this one.

[Ser Loudmouth]

Short question: are you arguing that Roose shouldn't have engaged Tywin? I may be slow but I didn't really catch on this one.

Yes.

He should have kept close but refused combat.

If possible he should have tried to draw Tywin towards the Twins or Moat Cailin and try to goad him into attacking a prepared position.

If Tywin retreats south, Bolton should have followed at a safe distance and looked to attack at a moment when Tywin was voulnerable, for exemple at the fords of the Trident.

I think by the time Tywin guessed Robb's plan, he was allready too far away to help Jaime in time, even if Bolton leaves him completely unmolested.

If Robb decided after breaking the siege of Riverrun to go directly after Tywin, Bolton should have been closeby and ready to join forces, so they can overwhelm Tywin's army.

Sounds like a good recipe to win the war quickly

[Bayard]

Yes.

He should have kept close but refused combat.

If possible he should have tried to draw Tywin towards the Twins or Moat Cailin and try to goad him into attacking a prepared position.

If Tywin retreats south, Bolton should have followed at a safe distance and looked to attack at a moment when Tywin was voulnerable, for exemple at the fords of the Trident.

I think by the time Tywin guessed Robb's plan, he was allready too far away to help Jaime in time, even if Bolton leaves him completely unmolested.

If Robb decided after breaking the siege of Riverrun to go directly after Tywin, Bolton should have been closeby and ready to join forces, so they can overwhelm Tywin's army.

Sounds like a good recipe to win the war quickly

Well there is only one problem with your idea.... Tywin had all the time in the world to fight, he had the supply lines very close, from Duskendale, King's Landing ... even if he lost the line from Westerlands. In contrast, the Northerners are in a hurry, they must win, and win fast, and get to King's Landing to rescue Ned.... that is what they're fighting for, and their supply lines are incredibly long, the Riverlands have nothing to spare. They couldn't simply shadow Tywin, because he always had the possibility to retreat to Harrenhal (the biggest fort in westeros, that could house an entire army). If he did that (which eventually he did), all was lost, they couldn't move onward to KL .... they had to defeat him first, try to take by siege Harrenhal, which was impossible without dragons. Roose lost, so... all hope to win, to get to the capital was lost aswell. But the result would have been the same if they didn't engage.

PS: Tywin actually didn't have all that time, to wait for Robb and Roose, because of the Baratheons, but the northerners didn't know that yet