Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 people are doing something about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 A long list, wasn't it? And given that these people are running around all over Westeros torturing people and no one is doing anything about it, by your logic all of Westeros is complicit and therefore no one should be judged.people are doing something about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candor Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 ok but once you except that prostitution could be preferable some other situations/occupations, then what are we arguing about again? That everyone doesn't get to do the job they want?Except I am NOT saying that. I'm saying she didn't like kitchen work. That is her opinion. It doesn't mean because she doesn't like kitchen work, prositution is the gold standard or the better option. Not only seeing it through Shae's lens, prositution never is the better option.So sorry, but we still have an active argument.And I agree very much with what others are saying. You are not comparing, as you have said numerous times that we are not to judge because everyone is complicit. Play by your own rules, at the very least. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zalim Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I DONT like littlefinger but i have to say thatwithout him, the books wouldnt have that touch of unpredictability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 No I'm saying i'm willing to except the argument prostitution is completely unacceptable. But if someone is willing to concede that being a prostitute is preferable to some to working in a kitchen then I'm not sure what we're arguing about.I think it should be obvious that prositution and sexual slavery are not the same thing, either in Westeros, or in the Western world today.We might agree that in an ideal world, prostitution wouldn't exist. However, in reality, prostitution has existed in every society that's ever existed. One is not being hypocritical in tolerating prostitution, while being opposed to sexual slavery.No one would get terribly concerned about Jeyne Poole if she were a sexually experienced 17 year old girl who chose to work in a brothel, and who could withdraw from that occupation if she wished. But that's very far from being her situation:-1. She's kidnapped by LF, after having had to endure her father and friends being murdered.2. She's forced to undergo"training" in a brothel, at the age of 11. That she objects to this trainng is obvious from the fact that her back is scarred with whip marks (unless the whipping is done for the sexual gratification of clients, which would make it even worse).3. She cannot leave the brothel.4. We can surmise that the activities which she's been required to perform, and which she's had done to her, would be painful, disgusting, and terrifying for an 11 year old virgin. 5. She has been raped and sexually assaulted for several years. Rape and sexual assault are risks that prostitutes face in their work, but the mere fact of working as a prostitute does not of itself amount to rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 Except I am NOT saying that. I'm saying she didn't like kitchen work. That is her opinion. It doesn't mean because she doesn't like kitchen work, prositution is the gold standard or the better option. Not only seeing it through Shae's lens, prositution never is the better option.So sorry, but we still have an active argument.And I agree very much with what others are saying. You are not comparing, as you have said numerous times that we are not to judge because everyone is complicit. Play by your own rules, at the very least. :rolleyes:I don't understand what you mean when you say I'm not comparing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Renly Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Is there seriously a human being in this thread arguing that sexual slavery--that is, years of repeated rapes--is not that bad because Shae would rather be a nobleman's concubine than a kitchen maid?Really?I weep for humanity.Littlefinger has a stalkerish, creepy obsession with Catelyn and a sick pedophilic lust for her daughter. Worse, he is a human trafficker and a murderer.Clearly, those of us who dislike him are just being petty and close-minded and should stop being so judgmental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 I think it should be obvious that prositution and sexual slavery are not the same thing, either in Westeros, or in the Western world today.We might agree that in an ideal world, prostitution wouldn't exist. However, in reality, prostitution has existed in every society that's ever existed. One is not being hypocritical in tolerating prostitution, while being opposed to sexual slavery.No one would get terribly concerned about Jeyne Poole if she were a sexually experienced 17 year old girl who chose to work in a brothel, and who could withdraw from that occupation if she wished. But that's very far from being her situation:-1. She's kidnapped by LF, after having had to endure her father and friends being murdered.2. She's forced to undergo"training" in a brothel, at the age of 11. That she objects to this trainng is obvious from the fact that her back is scarred with whip marks (unless the whipping is done for the sexual gratification of clients, which would make it even worse).3. She cannot leave the brothel.4. We can surmise that the activities which she's been required to perform, and which she's had done to her, would be painful, disgusting, and terrifying for an 11 year old virgin.5. She has been raped and sexually assaulted for several years. Rape and sexual assault are risks that prostitutes face in their work, but the mere fact of working as a prostitute does not of itself amount to rape.See this is my problem once you establish that prostitution is an acceptable form of work I have to ask how that makes Jeyne any different than any of the other small folk forced to work in some capacity in which they don't want to. Any different than Osha at winterfell, or Arya in harrenhal? If prostitution is OK then its child labor that's the problem? If child labor is the problem then how is littlefinger worse than Jon Snow employing children at the wall? In my mind Jeyne can't leave the brothel at the moment because she's Cersei's prisoner but she does know how to read and write which makes her better of than 99% of the people in westeros. And if in a few years when the Lannisters don't want her if she wanted to use those skills to do something else, I don't think she'd be stopped. I don't think the other women in littlefinger's brothels are enslaved, I think they could leave if they wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 Is there seriously a human being in this thread arguing that sexual slavery--that is, years of repeated rapes--is not that bad because Shae would rather be a nobleman's concubine than a kitchen maid?Really?I weep for humanity.Littlefinger has a stalkerish, creepy obsession with Catelyn and a sick pedophilic lust for her daughter. Worse, he is a human trafficker and a murderer.Clearly, those of us who dislike him are just being petty and close-minded and should stop being so judgmental.If I thought Jeyne was sold into sexual slavery I would agree with you. If we want to say that all prostitution is tantamount to sexual slavery then I can accept that argument. But if not then I don't see why its specifically Jeyne Poole that's the barometer of good and evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 If I thought Jeyne was sold into sexual slavery I would agree with you. If we want to say that all prostitution is tantamount to sexual slavery then I can accept that argument. But if not then I don't see why its specifically Jeyne Poole that's the barometer of good and evil.Jeyne clearly is a sexual slave. She has absolutely no option but to comply with the demands of the brothel's management and clients, or else she is whipped.Do you really think that an 11 year old girl who's had a sheltered upbringing would actually volunteer to be a prostitute? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evamitchelle Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 If I thought Jeyne was sold into sexual slavery I would agree with you. If we want to say that all prostitution is tantamount to sexual slavery then I can accept that argument. But if not then I don't see why its specifically Jeyne Poole that's the barometer of good and evil.How was Jeyne Poole not forced into sexual slavery ?And are you actually reading what everyone is saying on this thread ? No one has said that she's the "barometer of good and evil", only that what happened to her was clearly evil - even if other people in Westeros have faced the same or worse it doesn't mean that what happened to her was somehow "good" (like losing one leg is still a bad thing even though there are people who have lost both) - and that LF is a disgusting human being for making it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 See this is my problem once you establish that prostitution is an acceptable form of work I have to ask how that makes Jeyne any different than any of the other small folk forced to work in some capacity in which they don't want to. You don't seem able to distinguish between someone choosing to be a prostitute, and someone (adult or child) being coerced into being a prostitute.Almost every legal system does make that distinction, and treats the latter as a crime, on the part of the person who does the coercing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Jeyne is essentially a "dead woman walking". Both Sansa and Arya pose serious threats to her life should either be revealed in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 You don't seem able to distinguish between someone choosing to be a prostitute, and someone (adult or child) being coerced into being a prostitute.Almost every legal system does make that distinction, and treats the latter as a crime, on the part of the person who does the coercing.No I can distinguish, but Westeros is place were people live in serfdom and are forced in to service of some kind all the time that I would not consider slavery. I wouldn't consider Arya or Osha to be slaves, so its hard for me to then say Jeyne is a slave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hippie Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Is there a point to this topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 How was Jeyne Poole not forced into sexual slavery ?And are you actually reading what everyone is saying on this thread ? No one has said that she's the "barometer of good and evil", only that what happened to her was clearly evil - even if other people in Westeros have faced the same or worse it doesn't mean that what happened to her was somehow "good" (like losing one leg is still a bad thing even though there are people who have lost both) - and that LF is a disgusting human being for making it happen.OK. She's not a barometer, but i'm asking how you're deciding what is good and what is evil.Westeros is place were people live in serfdom and are forced in to service of some kind all the time that I would not consider slavery. I wouldn't consider Arya or Osha to be slaves, so its hard for me to then say Jeyne is a slave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 Is there a point to this topic?Just discussing the book. for its understanding other people's thought process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 Jeyne clearly is a sexual slave. She has absolutely no option but to comply with the demands of the brothel's management and clients, or else she is whipped.Do you really think that an 11 year old girl who's had a sheltered upbringing would actually volunteer to be a prostitute?Westeros is place were people live in serfdom and are forced in to service of some kind all the time that I would not consider slavery. I wouldn't consider Arya or Osha to be slaves, so its hard for me to then say Jeyne is a slave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Cake Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 OK. She's not a barometer, but i'm asking how you're deciding what is good and what is evil.Frankly, if you don't already understand why forcing an 11-year-old girl into prostitution is evil, then we can't help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingerly Grumkin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Lol this dude Wrath is hilarious. For sure feudalism is an extraordinarily irresponsible government, the Kings doesnt care about the Lords, and the Lords dont care about the people (80% of the population) And all Knights are psychopathic serial killers, and all girls are whored out and the fundamentalist Sparrows kidnap queens and pray to the powerless 7. So yes LF is a product of his environment. But does that make him immune to evil? Germany was at its peak since Bismarck, Austria looked like a powerful ally, Hitler was a soldier who received many honors, (including taking a bullet for a superior officer) He went home and saw communism take over the continent. Thats quite the life, does that make him "not evil". Seriously dude, I dont really care about Jeyne (she called my girl horseface) she played her part. But this ass hole killed Ned, how is that not evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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