Sliver of hope that Syrio is alive?

[Ivy Snow]

I myself don't think he's dead because we didn't see it, as for ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I don't think anyone wants to tell Cersei or Joff that they were beaten by a man with a wooden stick their own heads would be on spikes next to Ned and the rest, so it's much easier for Meryn to say to his men say the rooms were empty when they got there and Arya and the Bravosi could not be found.

I maybe too late to reply to this post but yes, I agree. Septa Mordane's head was on a spike and it was shown in the show eventhough she wasn't that important to the story. Septa Mordane is to Sansa as Syrio is for Arya. They are their mentors. If they took time to put Septa's head on a spike just because she was of the North and teaches Sansa this and that, why wont they put Syrio's head on the spike to if they really did kill him?

Though yea he might just be dead but a bit of me wishes he still lives.

[Ivy Snow]

double post. Sorry :(

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

In my opinion he is either dead or captured. He wasn't really that primary of a character so showing his death doesn't seem needed to me. He says the First Sword of Bravos does not run, and the only way he could have lived is if he had run. The knight he fights is still alive later on so Syrio obviously didn't kill him, and there is no mention of the event later on which surely there would have been if someone had managed to take out one of the Kings Guard and a squad of soldiers to escape. No wanted posters up about the guy, no talk of a bounty or any of that. And surely Joffery or Tyrion would have given Trant some shit about getting his ass kicked by a guy with a wooden sword if Syrio had knocked him out and escaped.

Joffery wouldn't bother showing off the head since the guy had no interest to Sansa, and he probably wouldn't mount it at all since Syrio is just some hired tutor for one of the Start kids and not a part of the household. To Joffery he would be a total nobody and not worth a spike.

The entire place is in an uproar as Lannister soldiers run around slaughtering Starks, so there is no reason to assume that the sounds of swords falling and clanging is Syrio fighting Trant and not any other number of soldiers fighting each other throughout that building.

I feel reasonably sure if Syrio had escaped and had further contact with Arya, he would have revealed himself to her at some opportune moment if for no other reason than to give her a little boost to cheer her up. The girl just had her entire household purged and her father decapitated right in front of her, she could use some good news. Syrio also would have most likely attempted to get her back to Winterfel and the safety of her remaining family as well.

He could very well be in the black cells or in the afterlife but I just don't see him running away, and being a faceless man to me just isn't his style. He was very proud of his identity and his position as first sword of Braavos and quite flamboyant, where a faceless man is more or less without identity and keep a low profile.

This is all just my opinion of course, he could be the Harpy for all I know.

He could've knocked trant out and walked away.

[Grail King]

Just because a character dies off screen does not mean they can be whisked back into the story because some of the fans would like it. I loved Syrio, he was awesome, and vital for Arya's training and later her survival, but what purpose would bringing him back serve? He went down fighting like a hero, his story is done.

That's just my opinion. Others can keep clinging to the hope that the Kindly Man will start saying 'fear cuts deeper than swords' and smiling knowingly at Arya, or the Alchemist will turn out to be every Braavosi ever introduced to the story or whatever, but I don't see it.

The problem here with Syrio is, even with a off screen death there is some sort of verbal or first hand visual indication of death ( even fake ones ) so far there isn't any for Syrio.

[Ashen Shugar]

I'm 50/50 on it, there is no conclusive evidence for it either way.

The bloodriders arguement is not a good one. The reason why Jorah won is because his opponent had a slashing weapon which is pretty useless against plate, Syrio uses a jabbing weapon, which is ideal for finding weak points in armour.

I wouldn't compare the situation to th hound either, I think Benjen would be a better comparison.

If it weren't for what GRRM said about it I'd been leaning towards him being alive.

Also, no just because he is from Bravos doesn't mean he is a FM, but it does make it a little more likely.

I think the problem( if he is dead) is that he was written as too good of a fighter, but he also came off as a very inteligent character. We're supposed to believe that he took out 5 trained men (probably amongst the best the lannisters had) without breaking a sweat and with a fake sword.. but then a single knight, who is not that clever and although undoubtably good I doubt anyone believes that he'd come out on top against 5 Lannister guards.

If it were Barristan or Jamie you'd say ok, he'd kill Trant, but the eventualy they get caught or killed because whats next for them? But Syrio is smart and very observant, if there was any opportunity to escape it's hard to see him not capitalising on it.

I don't think this is a matter of "people like him so much that they want him to be a live and refuse to admit he is dead".

There is debate because:

He was left in a situation that someone of his talent could very well of survived.

Several characters left in similarly dire positions and even worse have turned up alive.

His death has never been confirmed.

The only indications that he is dead are that Trant is not and what GRRM said about it.

[corbon]

I maybe too late to reply to this post but yes, I agree. Septa Mordane's head was on a spike and it was shown in the show eventhough she wasn't that important to the story. Septa Mordane is to Sansa as Syrio is for Arya. They are their mentors. If they took time to put Septa's head on a spike just because she was of the North and teaches Sansa this and that, why wont they put Syrio's head on the spike to if they really did kill him?

Though yea he might just be dead but a bit of me wishes he still lives.

To us they seem similar, as mentors, but not to anyone else, except perhaps Arya.

Septa Mordane is a permanent member of the Stark Household, an intimate at all times, almost standing in for Sansa's mother in many roles. She's probably as high as number 3 or 4 in the entire household.

Syrio is merely a Dancing Master, a temporary employee brought in to teach a specific thing for a short time. He's not recognisably part of the household, not a 'name', a 'face' or a 'ranker'.

No reason they'd bother staking his head unless they staked everyone, which they clearly didn't.

The bloodriders arguement is not a good one. The reason why Jorah won is because his opponent had a slashing weapon which is pretty useless against plate, Syrio uses a jabbing weapon, which is ideal for finding weak points in armour.

Except Syrio'd already failed there, hitting Trant numerous times with no effect, and his (point-less remember, its a wooden training sword) weapon had just been broken.

The argument stands. A fast agile opponent has an advantage over a slow armoured one, but when that advantage is lost they are screwed.

but then a single knight, who is not that clever and although undoubtably good I doubt anyone believes that he'd come out on top against 5 Lannister guards.

But when we leave him, it isn't just a one on one. We saw the one on one already and he lost. He danced around Trant for a while, striking him freely but unable to hurt him. Then he made a mistake and Trant caught him at close quarters and destroyed his weapon. We then leave with Syrio still at close quarters where Trant destroyed his weapon while he was unable to respond.

He was left in a situation that someone of his talent could very well of survived.

Several characters left in similarly dire positions and even worse have turned up alive.

His death has never been confirmed.

The only indications that he is dead are that Trant is not and what GRRM said about it.

And that no one is looking for him.

And that no one is worried about Arya having a super-retainer helping her.

And that for all his skills he'd still lost the fight at the point where we left.

[Ashen Shugar]

Except Syrio'd already failed there, hitting Trant numerous times with no effect, and his (point-less remember, its a wooden training sword) weapon had just been broken.

There were several swords and daggers lying around. Also, they were wooden swords but had lead running through them making them heavier than real swords IIRC. Which would make it good for clubbing. Also (this is irrelevant but)being a practice sword, having its tip broken while shortening its range could also make it more deadly.

But when we leave him, it isn't just a one on one. We saw the one on one already and he lost. He danced around Trant for a while, striking him freely but unable to hurt him. Then he made a mistake and Trant caught him at close quarters and destroyed his weapon. We then leave with Syrio still at close quarters where Trant destroyed his weapon while he was unable to respond.

He broke it, not destroyed. As has been pointed out already there was no shortage of weapons available to him. So is the assumption you are making here that once Trant broke his wooden sword Syrio gave up and waited for the killing blow obi wan style?

And that no one is looking for him.

If we can assume he is dead with no mention of it, then we can assume there is a search party out looking for him with also no mention of it.. no?

On a more serious note, there is a lot of chaos going on, it is very concievable and the bravosi dance instructor was put on the side while they dealt with the more pressing concerns, like ensuring Joff is safe on the throne and all the politics that go with that, and then forgotten about.

And that no one is worried about Arya having a super-retainer helping her.

Arya left well before Syrio would of, there is a chance they do not consider them as having been able to meet back up. Also in true westerosi knight fashion Trant would of down played Syrios skill when reporting both from pride and embarassment.

So they are not sure if Arya is alive, they are not sure (assuming he escaped Trant) what happened to Syrio and they still think he was a simple dance master.

And that for all his skills he'd still lost the fight at the point where we left.

He was losing, he had not lost. If you were are the Oberyn vs Gregor fight and you left at a certain stage you would of left assuming Oberyn made it without a scratch and Gregor lost.

Everyone is aware that Syrio had the odds stacked up against him, he just seems to have all the required skills to still make it out of that situation and as strange as it is that no one mentioned a search for him it is just as strange that no one mentioned his death either.

I understand that the arguements supporting his being alive are fairly weak, but so are the ones claiming he is not.

Also something I just thought of. People are saying he can't be an FM because his philosophy of "not today" goes against that of the FM. The problem with that is that his actions at the end don't fit with his words.

[Scaeva]

You mean, the lack of evidence other than the continued existence of Meryn Trant.

Meryn Trant's survival doesn't necessarily guarantee Syrio's death. Along with Boros Blount, Trant is described as one of the less worthy members of the white cloak on the Kingsguard. If Syrio had managed to escape or best him in some way, it wouldn't have been out of character for Trant to keep quiet about it. He's no Barristan Selmy.

If we had just the books to go on I'd assume he was dead, but Syrio's head wasn't on those stakes in the series either. Like with the book, we don't see him die and don't see his corpse. If some fans had gotten Syrio's survival wrong when reading the books, wouldn't Martin have been careful to correct that error in the series?

[Lummel]

If some fans had gotten Syrio's survival wrong when reading the books, wouldn't Martin have been careful to correct that error in the series?

Somehow I don't think that GRRM gets palpitations when he learns that some fans have reached the wrong conclusions.

[Max Stark]

I don't think Syrio could have killed Trant with a wooden sword anyway, but then Trant's survival is no evidence for Syrio's death. A man of his skill should have been able to flee. I never thought about it twice, but it strikes me as odd, that if the septa's head was on a pike, why not Syrio's.

[Faceless Sam]

To make such a show of his skill and how he faces off armored men with a wooden sword, and then not show the drama of him succumbing and saving Arya by putting himself out there and outnumbered in such a brave, selfless moment.

Fishy to me.

people would have thought "boromir". and if i had written that scene, i certainly wouldnt have wanted people to think "boromir".

[Cat Stark]

Somehow I don't think that GRRM gets palpitations when he learns that some fans have reached the wrong conclusions.

I could imagine that GRRM purposly made the episode ambiguos, just to fuck with the viewer, and maybe make the tv-viewers discuss the same thing that the readers have done again and again.

Grrm likes to play with us...

Personally I'm all in for the "he's alive theory". Just thought I was ought to mention it, now that we're playing "He IS, He's NOT" Yelling contest

[Max Stark]

:agree: There is no evidence for either his death or his survival. Hmm, makes me think he was a faceless man after all. :drunk:

[Lummel]

I never thought about it twice, but it strikes me as odd, that if the septa's head was on a pike, why not Syrio's.

Because the day after the coup Joffrey was standing there thinking 'so many heads, but so few spikes'.

Everybody in the Stark household apart from Sansa, Jeyne Pool and Arya was killed - but I think that there are only seven spikes so they are not all going to get seen in public.

[FanTasy]

I maybe too late to reply to this post but yes, I agree. Septa Mordane's head was on a spike and it was shown in the show eventhough she wasn't that important to the story. Septa Mordane is to Sansa as Syrio is for Arya. They are their mentors. If they took time to put Septa's head on a spike just because she was of the North and teaches Sansa this and that, why wont they put Syrio's head on the spike to if they really did kill him?

I have a hunch that Septa Mordane's head was placed there on specific orders by Joffrey, to make Sansa look at it.

The 'head trip' seemed planned to me, not something Joffrey thought off at the spot. I don't have the book at hand but I recall something was said by Joffrey that he wanted to show her something. Later he specifically pointed out the septa's head to let her look at it.

Joffrey hadn't Arya in his tender little fingers, but if he had, and he knew Syrio was important to her, he might have thought out something 'nice' to make her hurt.

[Horza]

Meryn Trant's survival doesn't necessarily guarantee Syrio's death. Along with Boros Blount, Trant is described as one of the less worthy members of the white cloak on the Kingsguard. If Syrio had managed to escape or best him in some way, it wouldn't have been out of character for Trant to keep quiet about it. He's no Barristan Selmy.

But we know the First Sword of the Sealord of Braavos doesn't run. And he's from a duelling culture where bravos kill one another over the tiniest slights so he's not going to be loathe to kill Trant. Trant's alive, Syrio isn't.

[Light a wight tonight]

Some of us just want Syrio to be alive. Don't mess with us. He wasn't killed on the printed page so there's no proof either way.

I'd say that he could have non lethally subdued Trant and walked (not run) away from that scene. Trant could have cooked up some story to explain away both parties being missing and all the guardsmen killed (Syrio didn't kill 'em all; Trant would have made sure there were no survivors to contradict him).

[corbon]

Except Syrio'd already failed there, hitting Trant numerous times with no effect, and his (point-less remember, its a wooden training sword) weapon had just been broken.

There were several swords and daggers lying around. Also, they were wooden swords but had lead running through them making them heavier than real swords IIRC. Which would make it good for clubbing. Also (this is irrelevant but)being a practice sword, having its tip broken while shortening its range could also make it more deadly.

You miss the point.

Your claim was that since Syrio uses a jabbing weapon which is ideal for finding weak points in armour, the evidence of Jorah's fight can't be used.

First, the simple analysis of both fights is that the lighter, faster man was dominant in the fight initially but couldn't deal a significantly damaging blow, and at some point in the fight they have their weapon trapped or broken at close range. Death follows in the first, the second simply isn't shown, but all post-scene results indicate show Trant was successful and nothing shows Syrio was. Nothing.

In the series scene, which GRRM wrote, Trant actually caught and held Syrio's sword in his armoured fist.

The simple fact is that even though Syrio uses a faster, lighter style and is able to rain blows on various parts of Trant's armoured anatomy in very quick time, those blows did nothing at all and the last thing we see is Trant getting in an effective blow (or 'hold' in the series). At that stage for all his vaunted capabilities and advatanges, Syrio has failed and Trant has succeeded. And yet, Syrio-advocates insist that now that Syrio is in a worse position than when he started - at close ranged and disarmed, this time he is guaranteed to succeed.

Its like he couldn't win the first time around because he wasn't blindfolded with an arm tied behind his back while barefoot on burning coals. Only when things get really bad for him can he show his true awesomeness! Sorry, GRRM doesn't write that sort of bullshit-for-14-year-olds, he writes gritty, nasty, realistic stuff.

But when we leave him, it isn't just a one on one. We saw the one on one already and he lost. He danced around Trant for a while, striking him freely but unable to hurt him. Then he made a mistake and Trant caught him at close quarters and destroyed his weapon. We then leave with Syrio still at close quarters where Trant destroyed his weapon while he was unable to respond.

He broke it, not destroyed. As has been pointed out already there was no shortage of weapons available to him. So is the assumption you are making here that once Trant broke his wooden sword Syrio gave up and waited for the killing blow obi wan style?

No. the point is that when Syrio had the maximum of his advantages - with a weapon suited to his style (even if a training sword) and the knight starting from outside combat range, so the best of maneouvering opportunities, Syrio still didn't beat Trant.

Now you insist that Syrio, having lost both his weapon and his maneouvering range, will acquire a weapon that doesn't match his style (while 'under fire') and incapacitate Trant while at Trant's prefered range.

Sure, its possible.

So are two headed lambs, I've birthed one (growing up on a sheep farm). But given the total lack of supporting evidence, it just isn't credible.

And that no one is looking for him.

If we can assume he is dead with no mention of it, then we can assume there is a search party out looking for him with also no mention of it.. no?

On a more serious note, there is a lot of chaos going on, it is very concievable and the bravosi dance instructor was put on the side while they dealt with the more pressing concerns, like ensuring Joff is safe on the throne and all the politics that go with that, and then forgotten about.

No. Because if he is alive then he is a critical factor in the recovery of Arya, and makes her recovery vastly more important.

There is no 'forgetting' Arya and her recapture. But its just isn't assigned the priority and the resources and the style that would be appropriate if Trant is forced toreport that he lost 5 guardsmen trying to take her and she escaped (and then has to say she had help escaping and the help was not apprehended...)

And that no one is worried about Arya having a super-retainer helping her.

Arya left well before Syrio would of, there is a chance they do not consider them as having been able to meet back up. Also in true westerosi knight fashion Trant would of down played Syrios skill when reporting both from pride and embarassment.

So they are not sure if Arya is alive, they are not sure (assuming he escaped Trant) what happened to Syrio and they still think he was a simple dance master.

Syrio must incapacitate Trant to leave (he will not 'run'). At that point Trant is not in a position to know whether Syrio and Arya reconnect and must assume that they would if they could and that they could.

And really, you think Trant can downplay Syrio's capabilities? "Oh, the Dancing Master interfered. He beat up 5 guardsmen and stopped me chasing Arya, but really, he was just a crappy dancing master, nobody to worry about, got no skills."

That is ridiculous.

And that for all his skills he'd still lost the fight at the point where we left.

He was losing, he had not lost. If you were are the Oberyn vs Gregor fight and you left at a certain stage you would of left assuming Oberyn made it without a scratch and Gregor lost.

Everyone is aware that Syrio had the odds stacked up against him, he just seems to have all the required skills to still make it out of that situation and as strange as it is that no one mentioned a search for him it is just as strange that no one mentioned his death either.

I understand that the arguements supporting his being alive are fairly weak, but so are the ones claiming he is not.

Also something I just thought of. People are saying he can't be an FM because his philosophy of "not today" goes against that of the FM. The problem with that is that his actions at the end don't fit with his words.

If we saw Oberyn walking around unhurt after the fight, yes, we'd assume Gregor lost and Oberyn made it without a scratch.

But we didn't see Syrio after the fight, we saw Trant, unhurt.

The arguments supporting his non-death are not weak, they are non-existant. They basically consist of "it is not impossible". There is no supporting data at all.

His actions do support his words. His words are a defiance of death, not a refusal. He is defying death till the end, not avoiding it.

but it strikes me as odd, that if the septa's head was on a pike, why not Syrio's.

Does everybody just post their thoughts without bothering to read?

I have a hunch that Septa Mordane's head was placed there on specific orders by Joffrey, to make Sansa look at it.

The 'head trip' seemed planned to me, not something Joffrey thought off at the spot. I don't have the book at hand but I recall something was said by Joffrey that he wanted to show her something. Later he specifically pointed out the septa's head to let her look at it.

Joffrey hadn't Arya in his tender little fingers, but if he had, and he knew Syrio was important to her, he might have thought out something 'nice' to make her hurt.

That is possible, but not really necessary.

Septa Mordane would be maybe in the top 3 or 4 people ranked in Ned's household, and a visible member of his household at court. She is one of the primary staking candidates even without a staking order from Joffrey.

[FanTasy]

Septa Mordane would be maybe in the top 3 or 4 people ranked in Ned's household, and a visible member of his household at court. She is one of the primary staking candidates even without a staking order from Joffrey.

It seemed to me a silly thing to do because it could be seen as an affront to the Faith. As I took it placing heads on a spike upon the city walls was mainly meant as a warning: look what happens if you betray the king.

I have to say I don't know the role of septa's in a household and if they were considered having an influential role in a House. They seem to me to be mainly chaperonnes and teachers for the female children of a House. Teaching needlework. Aegon's septa could be a different cookie :eek:

Anyway, regarding the sensitivity and rising political power of the Faith we hear of when Cersei visits the High Septon, his anger about the killings of septons, septa's and silent sisters, it seemed not a wise thing to do.

Or maybe it was meant as a message to other septa's, to invite them to 'rat' on their employers.if they heard of treason.

[FanTasy]

Some of us just want Syrio to be alive. Don't mess with us. He wasn't killed on the printed page so there's no proof either way.

I certainly hope for you we will hear more of Syrio :D Personally I think he died and fulfilled his part in the story.

But he is a character much loved so maybe he will return in the show.

The producers seem to have a keen eye for what fans like and don't like.

They kill people who clearly not died in the books, than the opposite can happen as well.

And who knows what GRRM has upon his sleeve ...