Sliver of hope that Syrio is alive?

[Dragon of Winterfell]

He was training Arya for months. He must be the worst FM around if he can't do his mission in that time.

Supposing that the real Jaqen was in the Black cells and also the true FM arya meets at Harrenhall,I would believe that he was the worst FM as he got caught on the mission.

Also,we dont know the mission of the FM that Arya meets.It can be anything,even a spying one to help other FMs do their job.

[Cat Stark]

He was training Arya for months. He must be the worst FM around if he can't do his mission in that time.

Point taken :lol: But it really depends on the nature of his mission. Killing immeadiately, spying and bidding his time before a kill or maybe he's just a rogue FM out for a bit of fun(Where Arya fits in there... :idea: ). We'll probably never know, unless we actually meet Syrio, Jaqen, Pate eh, whoever, again...

[Nukelavee]

Seriously, he's unlikely to be a FM.

Unlike Arya, becoming a FM is a loooooong process. Becoming a swordmaster is a looooooooong process. Establishing the rep to become, and then serve, as First Sword, isn't gonna be a matter of weeks or even months.

He doesn't need glamours to escape. Honestly, he's likely exactly what you'd need to guard against a FM: fast, smart, incredibly observant and shrewd.

Jaq isn't learning to be a Maester, btw, he's using that cover to ferret out what the Maesters know.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Seriously, he's unlikely to be a FM.

Unlike Arya, becoming a FM is a loooooong process. Becoming a swordmaster is a looooooooong process. Establishing the rep to become, and then serve, as First Sword, isn't gonna be a matter of weeks or even months.

He doesn't need glamours to escape. Honestly, he's likely exactly what you'd need to guard against a FM: fast, smart, incredibly observant and shrewd.

Jaq isn't learning to be a Maester, btw, he's using that cover to ferret out what the Maesters know.

That's true but if you become one you can pose as the other easily enough. We know Jaqen had sufficient swordsmanship to best a Lannister man at arms easily in the dungeon at Harrenhal. He need not ever have actually become first sword of Braavos just assumed the identity of the former first sword.

[corbon]

I haven't ignored anything. I'm just bringing up counter-arguments.

...

I get your points, and they make a lot of sense, but there is no hard evidence for either outcome. Trant knows that Arya ran away alone, it's entirely possible that he just assumed that they would be captured and/or killed. Let's also not forget that I'm pretty sure only a select few know that Jeyne Poole isn't the real Arya - if Trant was not one of them, he would not see the need to open his mouth about her and Syrio possibly getting away.

Well, until this you had ignored my main point. All the 'Syrio lives' arguers just go on and on and on about how he is so good and Trant is so bad that Syrio must be able to defeat him. Which could possibly be true, though it overstates the case very badly (especially about Trant being bad - its clearly a counter-taunt that he is slow, after he calls Syrio old). They ignore that fact that the evidence post-fight points very strongly to Syrio not being considered an issue. And if he had survived the fight, then he definitely would be a major issue.

Jeyne doesn't actually look very much like Arya at all.

Trant knows Arya escaped, he knows she had a retainer who disabled or killed 5 armed guards with a training sword, and if Syrio escaped then also disarmed and/or disabled him, Meryn Trant, a Knight of the KG in full armour in the midst of combat while unarmed. And Trant was pissed at Syrio at the time. There is no way that Trant could think, or accept, that 'Arya' was captured without difficulty in another part of the castle if Syrio escaped him. It is just not credible.

Yes but there was a time before we read about the quiet isle... The reason to think the Hound is alive is because we didn't see him die. Who's to say there's not a quite isle scene for Syrio in Winds of Winter?

No, the reason to think the hound is alive is because there was a quiet isle scene.

If there is a quiet isle type scene for Syrio in the WoW then the debate will be different. There will be actual evidence supporting his being alive. It the moment there is not a single iota of credible evidence supporting Syrio being alive, just reader fantasies. If some evidence crops up, then the chance he lives would change from 0.0001% or thereabouts (we didn't see him physically die) to 5%, 10%, 25%, 50% or 90%, depending on the quality of the evidence.

"Could be capable of' something is not evidence.

Because Martin left it purposefully vague. He did it in the books, and he did it on the TV show. Syrio is not conclusively dead. He's not conclusively alive either. We were meant to wonder if he lived by the ambiguous wording of Martin's prose. So why are people getting pissed at the other side in the argument? "That's stupid to think that he's alive/dead/a woman/turned into a parakeet!"

Neither side has proof. You have conjecture based on hope or disbelief. If Martin wants to reveal the truth, he will. Otherwise, this will remain a mystery.

It apparently wasn't deliberately ambiguous, just the POV left, as she was instructed too. GRRM has expressed surprise that people bother with this.

And conjecture should be based on evidence, not hope or belief (or disbelief). Otherwise absolutely anything can be conjectured and nothing can be argued for or against. If we purely go by hope and belief there are no limits and this board could be swamped by stuff that has virtually nothing to do wit ASoIaF.

This is a joke right? The Lannister's credibility is shot? Didn't that go out the window when Cersei claimed her kids were Roberts? When Jamie swore the kings guard oath and then killed the king?

It appears you don't understand the difference between official credibility and what we, the readers, know is 'real'.

The Lannisters at this stage have extremely high cred. Joffrey is King. Most of the realm acknowledge this - even the Starks acknowledge this, they are rising against the king to get Ned and the girls back and then independence. Stannis is the only one claiming Cersei kids aren't hers, and that is 'clearly' self-interested lies - to the extent where Moonface being Shirreen's father is a successful counter-rumour.

Jaime got his credibility back by being acceped by Robert into his KG and serving for a decade and a half.

I get what you're saying, I just think that its ridiculous. I don't think its possible for Arya to become any more valuable to Cersei than she already is.

Your words clearly indicate you don't come even close to 'getting' what I am saying. Arya clearly isn't particualrly valuable to Cersei because there isn't a great deal of effort made to find her. What she is, is a useful little piece of empty bargaining power. The idea of Arya being hostage is what is valuable, such as it is.

But if Arya can make her way back to Robb, then not only has that idea of her being a hostage been lost, but all the political barganing points are lost. If the Lannisters are caught lying in official correspondence then they can't be trusted in any official correspondence.

Its all part of the game. But once you are caught cheating, in a proveable manner, then the rules of the game change. No one wants that when they appear to be winning the game.

Exactly. It's fun to theorize and debate, but in the end we don't know for sure, so when people toss around words like 'stupid' and 'ignorant' they lose what little credibility they can have in a thread like this. Talking politics? Sure, get dirty with your words, that's how that game is played. But I would think we could argue for fun without trying to demean the other side of this debate.

Theories need to have some underlying basis.

If I say Arya could fly from Bravos to Westeros because little girls can grow wings if they are nice, then that is a stupid statement and deserves to be called such. If someone says, hey, maybe this guy is X because he says Y, when Y is in direct opposition to the philosophies of X, then that is stupid and deserves to be called so.

corbon - you make it sound like Jorah PLANNED getting nearly crippled by the bloodrider. No, Jorah was losing the fight, and he got lucky, in that the blade got stuck in his hip. The dude was gimped for a long time after that. It's a terrible example.

That is irrelevant. Warrior using fast and agile style vs armoured foe is beating him and has advantage. Then, at close quarters, his ability to use his weapon is taken from him and ... he dies.

That is the same situation as Syrio is in. It doesn't mean Syrio must die from there, but it counters the argument that Syrio is far too good and a good quick man always beats a slower armoured man - which is bullshit anyway, perpetrated by fantasy literature. People wore armour, lots of armour, historically (and in the novels), for a reason. A good quick man can beat a slower heavily armoured opponent, but he is not guaranteed too (for the most part not likely to) and particularly when in the situation Syrio finds himself in when we last see him - at close quarters with his weapon trapped (and then broken) by the slow armoured man - is in serious trouble.

But, he doesn't need to kill him to get out, he just needs to dodge around. And, Trant doesn't have the time for games, he has to catch teh girl.

At no point do the Lannisters seem to realize "dancing master" equals "one of the deadliest men alive"

Also, the Red Keep is a sieve - everyone has a secret exit. Gee, wonder if an experience Kingsguard equivilant would bother to have possible escape routes figured, considering he knows his patrons are out of favour and about to run for it?

And, again, never, in plain text, does anybody say the dancing master died.

I mean, if nobody knows him, a few seconds to get dirty and raggedy, and he's some drudge cowering in a corner.

All of which is true and possible. But the post-combat results paint entirely the opposite picture (never mind Syrio's Bravosi character).

Trant is uninjured.

No one is concerned about the Stark dancing master who got away after beating 5 guardsmen and a KG with only a wooden training sword.

No one is concerned about Arya being on the loose with a highly capable and therefore very dangerous retainer.

I don't think the blood riders are all that elite. Beyond which they're inexperienced facing armored opposition, something I don't think we can assume of Syrio.

Further, Trant isn't elite either. Tyrion tells Bronn to kill him if he says another word, and Trant is to scared to speak again. Bronn is just a common sellsword. Yes an experienced fighter but not the stuff of legend. Not likely to become the first sword of Braavos.

You don't think the Bloodriders are that elite? Lost for words...

What is it that you think of as elite?

Trant is very definitely elite though. He's scared of Tyrion more than Bronn (though not necessarily unafraid of Bronn). Tyrion is than Hand at the time, yes? Trant is finished if he attacks Tyrion (and therefore Bronn acting on Tyrions' direct orders) - not even Cersei could save him from that at that stage, but Bronn can kill Trant with impunity if the Hand says so.

And Bronn might be a 'common' sellsword, but he is by no means common. How many other sellswaords have achieved as much as he has? He's good, very good, an experienced killer known to have defeated a fully armoured champion in single combat. Trant would be right to be cautious around Bronn.

Trant is a Knight. That puts him in the top 10% or so of fighters almost automatically. His entire life's business is combat and preparation for combat. He trains probably every day and practically lives in his KG armour.

And then he is a KG. That puts him probably in the top 1%, even though the KG has fallen from what it was thanks to Cersei.. He may not be a match for the top 0.01% like Jaime, Loras or Barristan, but he is a good and experienced fighter in his own way. Even Sir Boros used to be reasonably good or he wouldn't have been appointed, though he has clear fallen far as he has aged. Trant, like Blount is from Robert's KG, a different standard than Cersei's. Robert was a warrior.

I have a idea as to how syrio could have escaped alive,yet all people would think that he was infact,dead.For my theory to be possible,him being a Faceless man is a must.

..

Now,can anyone tell me if my theory is too far fetched?

The philosphies espoused by Syrio are the opposite of the Faceless Men.

He defies death, rather than welcoming or worshipping it.

He demands the learning of seeing truth, rather than the learning of telling lies.

Syrio being a FM is as likely as Mel secretly worshipping the Drowned God.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

You don't think the Bloodriders are that elite? Lost for words...

What is it that you think of as elite?

Trant is very definitely elite though. He's scared of Tyrion more than Bronn (though not necessarily unafraid of Bronn). Tyrion is than Hand at the time, yes? Trant is finished if he attacks Tyrion (and therefore Bronn acting on Tyrions' direct orders) - not even Cersei could save him from that at that stage, but Bronn can kill Trant with impunity if the Hand says so.

And Bronn might be a 'common' sellsword, but he is by no means common. How many other sellswaords have achieved as much as he has? He's good, very good, an experienced killer known to have defeated a fully armoured champion in single combat. Trant would be right to be cautious around Bronn.

Trant is a Knight. That puts him in the top 10% or so of fighters almost automatically. His entire life's business is combat and preparation for combat. He trains probably every day and practically lives in his KG armour.

And then he is a KG. That puts him probably in the top 1%, even though the KG has fallen from what it was thanks to Cersei.. He may not be a match for the top 0.01% like Jaime, Loras or Barristan, but he is a good and experienced fighter in his own way. Even Sir Boros used to be reasonably good or he wouldn't have been appointed, though he has clear fallen far as he has aged. Trant, like Blount is from Robert's KG, a different standard than Cersei's. Robert was a warrior.

Cersei is a knew low but the guard had already fallen according to Ned before he goes to kings landing. Bronn is good. But he just happens to be in the Inn at the same time as Tyrion and Catelyn. That's different than being selected personally by the sea lord. Also we don't see many sellswords in actual combat. We know they're traitorous, but not unskilled.

Also, I think Cersei is trying as hard as she can to find Arya. I think the unsullied are elite. I think the Iron Fleet are elite. The faceless men. I think the Dothraki are basically the Essos equivalent of wildlings, there're just a whole lot more of them.

[kephv]

Syrio could be a FM because he mentions the God of Death, but his philosphy is the opposite of the FM, defying the god of death.

What of it? He's trying to give a pep talk to her at the time about not giving in. Jaqen seems to hold the Red God and all other gods in importance too, but that doesn't mean he's not a FM.

The FM, when they're in their roles, they're playing a part. Obviously that part wouldn't involve spouting FM doctrine about.

More generally: plenty of people die offscreen in this book: Balon Greyjoy, Berric Dondarrion, Gregor Clegane (for all intents and purposes), Allar Deem, Lady Hornwood, Falyse and Balman Stokeworth, the Magnar of Thenn, Chett, Andros and Flement Brax, Sawane Botley, Robar Royce, Emmon Cuy, I could go on. No one seems to doubt they're no longer in the land of the living.

Well, with all of those there's nothing vague about it - they're clearly dead and stated as such (some even in the appendix). Not to mention a lot of those are minor characters who are hardly in any scenes at all. Also, Chett is a prologue character and he does eventually end on screen.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think he's dead. I actually don't think he is or was meant to be "important," in the sense where he'd have some major set-up or there would be a motive to fake his death. His importance developed after the fact when fans got attached to him. Narratively I don't think he's that important and I think his function was fulfilled, given that he trained Arya and helped toughen her up for what was ahead.

Also, a note on the "god of death" thing. The original line is from an earlier episode (five or six, can't remember), and it's referenced again in the episode where Syrio sends Arya off when he faces Trant. It's also not in the book.

[Lord of Cheese]

that's just from the TV show.

I think he's dead. I actually don't think he is or was meant to be "important," in the sense where he'd have some major set-up or there would be a motive to fake his death. His importance developed after the fact when fans got attached to him. Narratively I don't think he's that important and I think his function was fulfilled, given that he trained Arya and helped toughen her up for what was ahead.

Also, a note on the "god of death" thing. The original line is from an earlier episode (five or six, can't remember), and it's referenced again in the episode where Syrio sends Arya off when he faces Trant. It's also not in the book.

Ahh 7 bloody hells!! Confusing the tv show and books. *sigh*

[Horza]

Also: "What to do we say to Death? Not today!" doesn't strike me has having much resonance with valar morghulis.

[Horza]

Well, with all of those there's nothing vague about it - they're clearly dead and stated as such (some even in the appendix). Not to mention a lot of those are minor characters who are hardly in any scenes at all. Also, Chett is a prologue character and he does eventually end on screen.

But they could be lying, and no one ever mentions Allar Deem again, and do you really believe people are dead just because George Martin told you so... etc. The argument that people aren't dead unless they die in front of a POV character's eyes just doesn't hold.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

But they could be lying, and no one ever mentions Allar Deem again, and do you really believe people are dead just because George Martin told you so... etc. The argument that people aren't dead unless they die in front of a POV character's eyes just doesn't hold.

That's the only way you can be certain.

But yes people will read what the want into the books, I think martin uses the Lem/beric Dondarrion situation to demonstrate this.

[oba]

I think he's dead. I actually don't think he is or was meant to be "important," in the sense where he'd have some major set-up or there would be a motive to fake his death.

I agree with you. I think he was a pretty minor, somewhat interesting character (though I think he's a little bit like the Boba Fett of Westeros at this point) who served his purpose in Book 1.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I agree with you. I think he was a pretty minor, somewhat interesting character (though I think he's a little bit like the Boba Fett of Westeros at this point) who served his purpose in Book 1.

The reason fans fixate on him though is because Arya keeps mentioning the things he taught her or brings him up.

[HyacinthGirl]

Syrio died a heroic death. (Why he didn't pick up one of the guardsmen's swords, kill them all, and escort Arya to safety is beyond me, but...). Just because he's Braavosi doesn't make him a faceless man. IMO, his role in the story was teaching Arya the building bricks of being a badass. His role is done. He died defending Arya, which is a fitting end for his character.

Some characters in ASOIAF are dead, some are "dead", and Syrio is dead.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Syrio died a heroic death. (Why he didn't pick up one of the guardsmen's swords, kill them all, and escort Arya to safety is beyond me, but...). Just because he's Braavosi doesn't make him a faceless man. IMO, his role in the story was teaching Arya the building bricks of being a badass. His role is done. He died defending Arya, which is a fitting end for his character.

Some characters in ASOIAF are dead, some are "dead", and Syrio is dead.

If character were dead because we wanted them to be Sansa would have been devoured by a lizard lion long ago.

[HyacinthGirl]

If character were dead because we wanted them to be Sansa would have been devoured by a lizard lion long ago.

I didn't say I wanted him to die, but he did, and now he's dead.

[deleted01]

I didn't say I wanted him to die, but he did, and now he's dead.

Okay, please enlighten us on your inside info on these books. Because we all clearly missed his undeniable death.

[HyacinthGirl]

Okay, please enlighten us on your inside info on these books. Because we all clearly missed his undeniable death.

Just because a character dies off screen does not mean they can be whisked back into the story because some of the fans would like it. I loved Syrio, he was awesome, and vital for Arya's training and later her survival, but what purpose would bringing him back serve? He went down fighting like a hero, his story is done.

That's just my opinion. Others can keep clinging to the hope that the Kindly Man will start saying 'fear cuts deeper than swords' and smiling knowingly at Arya, or the Alchemist will turn out to be every Braavosi ever introduced to the story or whatever, but I don't see it.

[Net-Viper X]

In my opinion he is either dead or captured. He wasn't really that primary of a character so showing his death doesn't seem needed to me. He says the First Sword of Bravos does not run, and the only way he could have lived is if he had run. The knight he fights is still alive later on so Syrio obviously didn't kill him, and there is no mention of the event later on which surely there would have been if someone had managed to take out one of the Kings Guard and a squad of soldiers to escape. No wanted posters up about the guy, no talk of a bounty or any of that. And surely Joffery or Tyrion would have given Trant some shit about getting his ass kicked by a guy with a wooden sword if Syrio had knocked him out and escaped.

Joffery wouldn't bother showing off the head since the guy had no interest to Sansa, and he probably wouldn't mount it at all since Syrio is just some hired tutor for one of the Start kids and not a part of the household. To Joffery he would be a total nobody and not worth a spike.

The entire place is in an uproar as Lannister soldiers run around slaughtering Starks, so there is no reason to assume that the sounds of swords falling and clanging is Syrio fighting Trant and not any other number of soldiers fighting each other throughout that building.

I feel reasonably sure if Syrio had escaped and had further contact with Arya, he would have revealed himself to her at some opportune moment if for no other reason than to give her a little boost to cheer her up. The girl just had her entire household purged and her father decapitated right in front of her, she could use some good news. Syrio also would have most likely attempted to get her back to Winterfel and the safety of her remaining family as well.

He could very well be in the black cells or in the afterlife but I just don't see him running away, and being a faceless man to me just isn't his style. He was very proud of his identity and his position as first sword of Braavos and quite flamboyant, where a faceless man is more or less without identity and keep a low profile.

This is all just my opinion of course, he could be the Harpy for all I know.