The Reeds' Oath to Bran: Ice and Fire

[finishingmove]

An intriguing phrase, and ominous. I don't think it concerns Jon, the whole oath seems very ancient.

Exactly. I don't think it has anything to do with Jon...

It's basically gradation.

"I swear it by earth and water." — in times of peace, well-being

"I swear it by bronze and iron." — in times of turmoil

"We swear it by ice and fire." — in times of extreme events

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

EDITED

I think the oath represents the different inhabitants of Westeros. CotF (earth and water), First Men/wargs (bronze and Ice), Andals (Iron), and Targs (Fire).

I'll take it a step further. When offering an oath its customary to pick a consequence, we commonly hear 'By pain of death'. I think they're listing these as consequences:

Earth and Water - Magic that the COTF can wield as seen by breaking the Essos land bridge to dorne and flooding the neck.

Bronze and Iron - By the weapons of First Men and the Andals

Ice and Fire - By the Others and Dragons

Basically saying if we break our oaths may we be cursed by the COTF, hunted by men, and suffer the return of the others and the dragons as a fitting punishment.

[three-eyed monkey]

I agree the oath goes back to the pact between the CotF and the First Men. I can see how the Reeds might have kept much of the lore surrounding the battle for the dawn and the defeat of the others alive through strong oral tradition. If that is the case I believe Howland Reed knows a lot about the song of ice and fire, which must be related to the cyclical return of the Others, more than even Rhaegar had learned, and this might have been instrumental in his intervention between Ser Arthur Dayne and Ned at ToJ.

[Night Gathers]

I thought of the words as if they simply swore on everything possible.

I actually don't believe they have a secret meaning. I just think they wanted to tell the Starks that they are theirs whatever happens.

[Walder Waters]

Crackpot: Howland swore an oath to Ned to keep Jon's identity a secret. Lyanna possibly explained to Ned Rhaegar's prophecy-based rationalization. The "ice and fire" bit is a coded phrase included to show that Howland still honors his promise to Ned to not tell anyone who Jon really is.

But Ned was already dead and neither Bran nor Robb knew about Jon. Whom did he want to show faith to the promise, if nobody can understand the code? Therefore the coded phrase would have been addressed just to the old gods (or the reader)?

[Ylva]

I always looked at both ice and fire as a way of the world ending - they're opposites, and either extreme is deadly. As for the oath, do you think it could mean that they're with him no matter which way it turns out? I like Ser Ilyn's Tongues' idea too tho (great name btw! :D), and I'm probably talking out of my arse as usual x)

This is somewhat off-topic, but did you know Robert Frost wrote a poem called "Fire and Ice" that has the end of the world as its topic?

[deleted01]

This is somewhat off-topic, but did you know Robert Frost wrote a poem called "Fire and Ice"that has the end of the world as its topic?

Yes, I think a similar idea is key to this series. If ice completely wins, the world will end, or at the very least go through some extreme changes, and the same goes for fire. Both burn, both are deadly, both are opposite extremes.

[Wise Fool]

Ice - Death, the Others, the Stranger/God of Many Faces

Fire - Life, the red god, and dragons.

Earth - the Old Gods, and greenseers and CotF.

Water - the Drowned God

Bronze, the old. The First Men.

Iron, the new. The Rhoynar (or is that Andals?).

So I think it's basically "by all the gods new and old" type super-binding oath. But also touches on the major elemental type themes of deities and magic.

[Otho Bracken]

I think the Reed's oath is specifically directed at Bran, knowing he has an important destiny....

[StarkDragon]

"I swear it by earth and water." — Jojen

"I swear it by bronze and iron." — Meera

"We swear it by ice and fire." — Both

What does this mean?! Other than being really cool — and yet another example of a northern house that is unabashedly pro-Stark to the core — what are they actually saying? Why do they end, emphatically, with "ice and fire"? Is this a coincidence, or does it have to do with "the song of ice and fire"?

I figured it was similar to "From beginning to end"

Meaning they swear their allegiance from one spectrum, all the way to the opposite side.

However, I might be taken the context for granted.

[Israel]

Could be that whilst recieving baby from Lynna that there was some explanation as to whom Rhaegar thought the baby to be , cuz lyanna obvi knew what Rhaegar was up to right?, (TPTWS) whose song would be that of Ice and fire. So sounds important enough to swear by if HR knew about which I guess he did because something like this would only reinforce Reed love for all that is Stark. I actually think they added the "Ice and fire" part after TOJ. Just a theory

[Mithras]

“My lords of Stark,” the girl said. “The years have passed in their hundreds and their thousands since my folk first swore their fealty to the King in the North. My lord father has sent us here to say the words again, for all our people.”

She is looking at me, Bran realized. He had to make some answer. “My brother Robb is fighting in the south,” he said, “but you can say your words to me, if you like.”

“To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater,” they said together. “Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you.”

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.

“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.

“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together.

Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught.

1. Howland sent his kids to repeat the oaths they swore to King Rickard Stark when he defeated the Marsh King, married his daughter and joined the Neck to his domains. This is an oath coming back from thousands of years ago.

2. Since Bran was not taught how to respond to this oath, neither Luwin nor anyone else ever heard this oath.

3. Obviously, this oath and its importance is among the things forgotten in Winterfell but still remembered at the Neck.

Whatever the truth, the last man to be called Marsh King was killed by King Rickard Stark (sometimes called the Laughing Wolf in the North, for his good nature), who took the man’s daughter to wife, whereupon the crannogmen bent their knees and accepted the dominion of Winterfell. In the centuries since, the crannogmen have become stout allies of the Starks, under the leadership of the Reeds of Greywater Watch.

Interesting thing about King Rickard Stark is that he was called the Laughing Wolf for his good nature. Bran has that good nature too.

All around them lights glimmered through the mists, a hundred candles pale as shrouded stars. Theon stepped back, and Ramsay and his bride joined hands and knelt before the heart tree, bowing their heads in token of submission. The weirwood’s carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked.

And here we have Bran laughing through the heart tree.

Does it foreshadow Braneera ship in the future?

[Mithras]

Earth + Water = CotF

Bronze + Iron = Human

Ice + Fire = human/CotF hybrid = Brandon the Builder = Lightbringer = dragonsteel

[Mithras]

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer’s Winter’s Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself , and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air.

The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak.

South of the Neck, the riverfolk whose lands adjoin their own say that the crannogmen breathe water, have webbed hands and feet like frogs, and use poisons on their frog spears and their arrows.

On the Isle of Toads can be found an ancient idol, a greasy black stone crudely carved into the semblance of a gigantic toad of malignant aspect, some forty feet high. The people of this isle are believed by some to be descended from those who carved the Toad Stone, for there is an unpleasant fishlike aspect to their faces, and many have webbed hands and feet. If so, they are the sole surviving remnant of this forgotten race.

It is clear that the CotF are those who sing the song of earth. So, who could be those who sing the song of water/sea? I think the crannogmen have not only CotF ancestry but also a race from the sea (perhaps the merlings).

So, "I swear it by earth and water" refers to these two inhumane races.

In return, "I swear it by bronze and iron" might refer to two tribes or even races of humans. Obviously, bronze is for the First Men. So, for whom is the iron?

A possibility arises for a third race to have inhabited the Seven Kingdoms in the Dawn Age, but it is so speculative that it need only be dealt with briefly. Among the ironborn, it is said that the first of the First Men to come to the Iron Isles found the famous Seastone Chair on Old Wyk, but that the isles were uninhabited. If true, the nature and origins of the chair’s makers are a mystery. Maester Kirth in his collection of ironborn legends, Songs the Drowned Men Sing, has suggested that the chair was left by visitors from across the Sunset Sea, but there is no evidence for this, only speculation.

Maybe this mysterious race who carved the Seastone Chair was the iron culture.

Whatever the case, Ice and Fire seems like a unifying Pact that binds all the races.

The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command . To win the Vale, he flew to the top of the Giant’s Lance and slew the Griffin King. He counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son.

It appears that a human hero wed a CotF and allied with merlings and giants. When can such a union happen?

Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru. According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children —lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River— to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

;)

[Ser Cold Fingers]

<SNIP>

Interesting. I like it.

Thanks for resurrecting this topic.

[Sword of the Morgan]

Interesting, OP. I didn't remember that. I really like the Reeds, and this makes me like them even more. What it means, though, is difficult to say. Thanks for the post. Good food for thought.

[Ygritte]

The oath reveals a deep truth about the Powers that rule this world.

Earth and Water refer to the power of the Old Gods, the children of the forest and the greenseers. The original powers of nature that ruled this world.

Bronze and Iron refer to the powers of Man. Technology, in other words.

Ice and Fire refer to the the two "alien" powers, that have intruded upon the natural order of the world - in my opinion when the asteroid/moon/planetoid from Dothraki legend broke up in the atmosphere and brought these two alien and opposing powers to the planet.

These two powers are in eternal conflict with one another, are not native to this world, and are represented by the Dragons and all Fire magic cults on the one hand, and the Others and their Long Winter on the other.

I think this is true in its broad lines at least. They swear by the powers of Nature, they swear by the powers of Humanity, they swear by the powers of Magic.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

It is clear that the CotF are those who sing the song of earth. So, who could be those who sing the song of water/sea? I think the crannogmen have not only CotF ancestry but also a race from the sea (perhaps the merlings).

The Rhoynar, with their water wizards, definitely qualify as Water Singers. Their abilities and legends seem to have nothing to do with the sea god legends we hear of from the Ironborn, Godric Borrell, and Cat's account of the building of Storm's End, so I would heartily recommend considering Water and Sea as separate magics. Sea magic is often paired with Storm/(Air).

At Hoster Tully's funeral, Cat claimed that the Tullys draw their strength from the river Trident. It is possible that the Tullys and other Riverlords have some small latent abilities with water (the Trident being a lesser river than the Rhoyne). Many have speculated that the crannogman may be descended from riverlanders that moved north as Andals advanced, which, combined with lesons from the CotF, would account for the crannogmen's abilities with both earth and water. (The crannofman in Meera's KotLT story could change earth to water and water to earth.)

I see evidence of three complementary pairings of magic/songs - earth & water, fire & ice, sea & air (plus life/death/blood to bind it all). The crannogmen are not a sea-faring people, so they ignore sea & air. They swear by the magics they know, and by bronze and iron, which represent the mundane and the anti-magical. (Iron often is said to have antimagical properties, thus its use to bind spirits in the Winterfell crypts.)

The oath is similar to the Oath to Frigg from the story of the Death of Baldur.

§ 2.— Balder.

A god whose life might in a sense be said to be neither in heaven nor earth but between the two, was the Norse Balder, the good and beautiful god. The story of his death is as follows: Once on a time Balder dreamed heavy dreams which seemed to forebode his death. Thereupon the gods held a council and resolved to make him secure against every danger. So the goddess Frigg took an oath from fire and water, iron and all metals , stones and earth, from trees, sicknesses and poisons, and from all four-footed beasts, birds, and creeping things , that they would not hurt Balder.

Sir James George Frazer. The Golden Bough (Vol. 2 of 2) (Kindle Locations 3140-3145).