Dealing with values dissonance

[frodostark]

Except that Tolkien explicitly stated that he modeled the dwarves after semite stereotypes. So...I guess you can choose to just not believe the author.

Emphasis mine above...where did he say that? The linked article quotes him as saying "I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations...[t]he Dwarves of course are quite obviously--couldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic, obviously, constructed to be Semitic." This does not equal negativity and stereotyping (at least in the sense that you seem to mean "stereotype.").

I'm not saying there's no "Jewishness" to the dwarves, I'm just saying I don't see that JRRT = racist/bigot/etc. As others have mentioned, dwarves are far from the only folks who are under the sway of riches nor, as I noted, far from the only folks who are fallible. I actually think the article is fairly even-handed and interesting...just don't agree with the conclusions. JRRT makes many other statements that clearly show he was not bigoted...not sure why Brackmann would "choose to just not believe the author." :)

[Verboten]

Actions speak louder than words. Prejudice is far more insiduous than actually outright stating 'I hate minority group x', it consists of subconcious ideals you hold and how you treat other people regardless of good intentions.

[frodostark]

Actions speak louder than words. Prejudice is far more insiduous than actually outright stating 'I hate minority group x', it consists of subconcious ideals you hold and how you treat other people regardless of good intentions.

Emphasis mine again...because I agree with the bolded statements. And, germane to this discussion, when push came to shove, JRRT got testy with an apparently prejudicial query from his German publisher.

[Verboten]

Emphasis mine again...because I agree with the bolded statements. And, germane to this discussion, when push came to shove, JRRT got testy with an apparently prejudicial query from his German publisher.

And that letter does not erase the stereotypes he used during the books.

[Grack21]

*bangs head against wall*

[Kalbear]

Yeah, that doesn't fly so well.

in the same place he says this:

The most that can be said for the dwarves is this: they intended to pay Bilbo really handsomely for his services; they had brought him to do a nasty job for them, and they did not mind the poor fellow doing it if he would; but they would have done their best to get him out of trouble, if he got into it, as they did in the case of the trolls at the beginning of their adventures before they had any particular reasons for being grateful to him. There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent people like Thorin and Company, if you don’t expect too much.

I guess that in the same article where he writes that Dwarves are semites and he writes that dwarves are 'not heroes' and are calculating folk it's a huge stretch to connect the two. We must be being super silly, no?

ETA: I'm actually wrong; the former was from an interview, the latter was from annotations to the Hobbit. The point is still fair though.

[Mr. E]

My belief is reaffirmed that people are going to believe what they want to believe.

[Grack21]

If you're going to burn LotR, you better go burn anything you own that was made using an assembly line. And I have bad news about your Roald Dahl books.

[Verboten]

If you're going to burn LotR, you better go burn anything you own that was made using an assembly line. And I have bad news about your Roald Dahl books.

Would it kill you to shut the hell up and let someone else vent? I know you think you're the center of the fucking world but you know nothing about the subject. I read fantasy to escape from the world and all of the shit that gets flung at me, not to have it shoved in my face over and over again because some old prick thought he was being clever.

[Grack21]

Nice.

[Verboten]

I am an amazing orator.

[Sci-2]

Whoah. Fuck you Grack: The Verboten story. :-P

[Grack21]

I forgot to mention Orson Scott Card, but that's kinda assumed at this point I think.

Whoah. Fuck you Grack: The Verboten story. :-P

I dunno, sounds like a straight to dvd movie to me.

[Sci-2]

I forgot to mention Orson Scott Card, but that's kinda assumed at this point I think.

I dunno, sounds like a straight to dvd movie to me.

Thank God OSC only wrote one good book. ;-)

Sorry, with Verboten rocking that avatar, and the ferret from before, I think she has enough cool points for a theater run.

[Grack21]

Thank God OSC only wrote one good book. ;-)

Sorry, with Verboten rocking that avatar, and the ferret from before, I think she has enough cool points for a theater run.

I dunno, that new avatar seems to be portraying a racial stereotype to me. :P

[frodostark]

Yeah, that doesn't fly so well.

in the same place he says this:

I guess that in the same article where he writes that Dwarves are semites and he writes that dwarves are 'not heroes' and are calculating folk it's a huge stretch to connect the two. We must be being super silly, no?

ETA: I'm actually wrong; the former was from an interview, the latter was from annotations to the Hobbit. The point is still fair though.

I actually do think it's a big stretch, sorry. :) I've mentioned some reasons, but we don't need to keep circling that drain. And as I mentioned, the article seems fairly even-handed in its discussion of this topic. It's just become a pet peeve of mine over the years to seek out "offensiveness" without factoring historical or cultural contexts into the equation and then using all of that to discredit a work of art or even the artist (note: real anti-Semitism is not cool, etc. etc...just saying there seems to be a big desire to play "gotcha" with people who cannot defend themselves in the name of our own greater sense of enlightenment).

At this point, I'm more interested in how this ties into the OP...sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread: Verboten excepted, how does your perception of JRRT and Jews affect how you perceive/enjoy LOTR the work?

[The Marquis de Leech]

ETA: I'm actually wrong; the former was from an interview, the latter was from annotations to the Hobbit. The point is still fair though.

For the umpteenth time: 1960s Tolkien (a language nut) was drawing an analogy between the Jewish homeland issue/ancient language and the Dwarven homeland issue/ancient language. The calculating folk line is written thirty years earlier in an altogether different context.

But to the people arguing 'nasty negative stereotypes': where are the Dwarvish moneylenders in Tolkien? There aren't any (Dwarves earn wealth from craft, not from commercial transactions). Where are the sinister legends among Men about Dwarves carrying off human children? There aren't any (if anything, it's the Elves that Men have problems with. Boromir fears Lothlorien, but isn't a hater of Gimli).

Frankly, you'd have a far easier time arguing that J.K. Rowling's Goblins are anti-semitic than Tolkien's Dwarves.

[Kalbear]

Mind you, I don't think that he was antisemitic. I think that he was happy to use jewish stereotypes (just like he was happy to use classist stereotypes, racist stereotypes, etc) but I don't think he had any particular ill will towards them. I think his views were not particularly progressive. That doesn't mean he was a huge racist or whatever - but it's certainly problematic.

What's far more problematic is everyone copying him. Especially when not understanding what the fuck they're doing.

[Grack21]

For the umpteenth time: 1960s Tolkien (a language nut) was drawing an analogy between the Jewish homeland issue/ancient language and the Dwarven homeland issue/ancient language. The calculating folk line is written thirty years earlier in an altogether different context.

But to the people arguing 'nasty negative stereotypes': where are the Dwarvish moneylenders in Tolkien? There aren't any (Dwarves earn wealth from craft, not from commercial transactions). Where are the sinister legends among Men about Dwarves carrying off human children? There aren't any (if anything, it's the Elves that Men have problems with. Boromir fears Lothlorien, but isn't a hater of Gimli).

Frankly, you'd have a far easier time arguing that J.K. Rowling's Goblins are anti-semitic than Tolkien's Dwarves.

Dwawrves earning money from craft was also taken directly from Norse Mythology I believe.

[Grack21]

For the umpteenth time: 1960s Tolkien (a language nut) was drawing an analogy between the Jewish homeland issue/ancient language and the Dwarven homeland issue/ancient language. The calculating folk line is written thirty years earlier in an altogether different context.

But to the people arguing 'nasty negative stereotypes': where are the Dwarvish moneylenders in Tolkien? There aren't any (Dwarves earn wealth from craft, not from commercial transactions). Where are the sinister legends among Men about Dwarves carrying off human children? There aren't any (if anything, it's the Elves that Men have problems with. Boromir fears Lothlorien, but isn't a hater of Gimli).

Frankly, you'd have a far easier time arguing that J.K. Rowling's Goblins are anti-semitic than Tolkien's Dwarves.

I'm not seeing these stereotypes either. I believe the dwarves lust for riches comes, again, from Norse mythology.(Or maybe Finnish. Tolkien did love him some mythology).

Also, was the Jewish homeland issue really an issue yet? I thought LotR was written in the 30s. Could be wrong about that though.