Dealing with values dissonance

[Verboten]

I'm not seeing these stereotypes either. I believe the dwarves lust for riches comes, again, from Norse mythology.(Or maybe Finnish. Tolkien did love him some mythology).

Also, was the Jewish homeland issue really an issue yet? I thought LotR was written in the 30s. Could be wrong about that though.

Zionism has existed as an extremist philosophy since the late 1800's, after the second world war it became more extreme but less frowned upon.

[Seli]

Here is either an example of values dissonance, with hints to old values shifted so much that they don't even register anymore, or a giant case of privilege. But I really have to squint to see the case for any anti-semitism in the way the Dwarves are described in the published works of Tolkien.

Partly because the bearded, mineworking, crafting, axe-wielding species with the secret language (resembling Dutch or Semitic languages in sound) has become its own stereotype distinct from any origins.

Partly because (and this is where privilege is coming in) the 'traditional' anti-semitic stereotypes hardly ever come up in my environment. And if they do usually in a historical context. And a lot of those stereotypes (in isolation) apply to plenty of other groups as well. The Dutch complain, the Scots are greedy, Scientology is secretive, Chinese are tough merchants as are the Lebanese, Businesses only care about the money, the Molukkers want to go back to their lost homeland. And those are things I encounter more often and am more likely to subconsciously connect to factoids in a text.

So the bit of culture I call home has shifted enough, by making up new stereotypes by shifting associations by changes in language and imagery that some possible interpretations are not quite lost, but need examination to appear. Which is a normal pattern in our understanding of older texts, and texts coming out of different cultures. Leading to a situation where values dissonance never even takes place, because the old values are hidden in plain sight.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I really have to squint to see the case for any anti-semitism in the way the Dwarves are described in the published works of Tolkien.

So the bit of culture I call home has shifted enough, by making up new stereotypes by shifting associations by changes in language and imagery that some possible interpretations are not quite lost, but need examination to appear. Which is a normal pattern in our understanding of older texts, and texts coming out of different cultures. Leading to a situation where values dissonance never even takes place, because the old values are hidden in plain sight.

Well, where I live anti-semitic stereotypes are unfortunately quite alive, but they usually look very different. They have long ago evolved into a classic paranoia pattern - Jews are people who look like us, speak like us and hide among us, secretly ruling us all. Nothing in this resembles Tolkien's dwarves at all, so, no, it would never occur to me to see any analogy.

[Shryke]

If Dwarves are Jews, I suggest excavations in Israel be put on hold for safety's sake.

[Lummel]

I think that point about teh kind of anti-semitism that you are familar with . Growing up in England were we told each other jokes in the schoolyard that took for granted that Jews were alien, gold obsessed and greedy - greedier in our imagination than the Scots (because there was space in our imaginations for more than one predustice), then for me seeing that JRRT said:

The dwarves of course are quite obviously, couldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews?

(about the seven minute stage in this 1964 interview, and the way he says it is interesting) it all drops into place. Yes some of that portrail can be found in the source material but in Tolkien the dwarves are explictly a separate creation from the Elves while in the source material they are just variants of the same basic kind of creature.

Personally I take it as a part of the picture of the man, it's a bad idea to put people on pedestals and assume they are perfect. We all have our flaws.

[SeanF]

There's quite a lot in LOTR that is explicitly or implicitly critical of racist thinking. For example, Faramir criticised Gondor's Kings and nobility at length for their obsession with keeping the blood pure, and praises the Stewards for intermarrying with the Non-Numenorean population of Gondor. Likewise, the racial arrogance that lies behind the Kin Strife is shown as being a total disaster for Gondor.

Assuming that Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, and Men are different types of humanity, as Tolkien said, then one of the themes of the book is how they have to overcome their prejudices against each other.

[Galactus]

I'm not seeing these stereotypes either. I believe the dwarves lust for riches comes, again, from Norse mythology.(Or maybe Finnish. Tolkien did love him some mythology).

Also, was the Jewish homeland issue really an issue yet? I thought LotR was written in the 30s. Could be wrong about that though.

Uh yes? That would be years after the Balfour Declaration.

[Galactus]

What I don’t like with the linked article (a good part of which I read) is the following:

I like reading different mindsets. Not as a theoretical or aesthetic exercise. I think this is exactly what literature is for. It is not a vehicle for “correct thinking”, like Terry Goodkind and the academic left want it to be. I want by sensibilities challenged. If this happens by reading a decent person’s viewpoints (like Tolkiens) that would make somebody else’s knickers get in a twist, were it written today: even better.

Just one point here:

To many mariginalized groups reading racist/sexist/homophobic stuff is not a "challenge", It's the way things are presented. The idea that say... Homosexuality is bad, or white people are better than others or men are more important than women isn't some kind of challenge that makes you think in a new way: It's the message society is sending you constantly.

[Grack21]

Uh yes? That would be years after the Balfour Declaration.

Yes, I'm getting my timetables messed up.

[Grack21]

I think that point about teh kind of anti-semitism that you are familar with . Growing up in England were we told each other jokes in the schoolyard that took for granted that Jews were alien, gold obsessed and greedy - greedier in our imagination than the Scots (because there was space in our imaginations for more than one predustice), then for me seeing that JRRT said:

(about the seven minute stage in this 1964 interview, and the way he says it is interesting) it all drops into place. Yes some of that portrail can be found in the source material but in Tolkien the dwarves are explictly a separate creation from the Elves while in the source material they are just variants of the same basic kind of creature.

Personally I take it as a part of the picture of the man, it's a bad idea to put people on pedestals and assume they are perfect. We all have our flaws.

You can take it as part of the picture of the man, but don;t you also have to take into account all the other stuff he said in defense of the Jews against the Nazis?

[Lummel]

I take both into account. They don't in my opinion cancel each other out, they both are part of the man.

[Grack21]

I take both into account. They don't in my opinion cancel each other out, they both are part of the man.

Fair enough.

[thistlepong]

I take both into account. They don't in my opinion cancel each other out, they both are part of the man.

Hence dissonance.

[RebeccaSigyn]

Having read and been a fan of JRRT since I was really young (well over 30yrs) no one will ever convince me that his books are racist. I have read most of his works several times & I have never understood how people can say that about him but of course it is easy to accuse a dead man of anything and get away with it because a dead man can not defend himself.

[Kalbear]

Well, RebeccaSigyn, that's a completely useless post. I'm sure everyone's quite happy that they'll no longer try to convince you of that - or really, of anything.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I think that point about teh kind of anti-semitism that you are familar with . Growing up in England were we told each other jokes in the schoolyard that took for granted that Jews were alien, gold obsessed and greedy - greedier in our imagination than the Scots (because there was space in our imaginations for more than one predustice), then for me seeing that JRRT said:

Tolkien's background was, however, seeing himself as being part of a marginalised minority (see the way his mother was treated by her family after her conversion to Catholicism).

(about the seven minute stage in this 1964 interview, and the way he says it is interesting) it all drops into place.

Pretend for a moment that the comment truly was made with stereotypes in mind. Do you think Tolkien would have been so stupid to make such a public comment in 1964 - when memories of the Second World War and the Holocaust were still fresh in people's minds? Bearing in mind, this is the same person who condemned the Nazis in the 1930s, when anti-semitism (and racism in general) was much more socially acceptable.

Yes some of that portrail can be found in the source material but in Tolkien the dwarves are explictly a separate creation from the Elves while in the source material they are just variants of the same basic kind of creature.

One of Tolkien's great fondnesses was resolving old linguistic difficulties (for instance, why the name Gandalf, meaning wand-elf, appears in a list of dwarvish names in the Elder Edda). His separation of Elves and Dwarves can similarly be seen as an attempt to reconstruct the ancestor of his source material.

Personally I take it as a part of the picture of the man, it's a bad idea to put people on pedestals and assume they are perfect. We all have our flaws.

While we're at it:

Letter 29 (June 1938): "I must say that the enclosed letter from Rutten & Loening is a bit stiff. Do I suffer this impertinence because of the possession of a German name, or do their lunatic laws require a certificate of arisch origin from all persons of all countries? ... Personally I should be inclined to refuse to give any Bestatigung (although it happens that I can), and let a German translation go hang. In any case I should object strongly to any such declaration appearing in print. I do not regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood as necessarily honourable; and I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine."

Letter 324 (June 1971): "[The name Tolkien] is not Jewish in origin, though I would consider it an honour if it were."

Oxford University Valedictory Address (1959): "I have a hatred of apartheid in my bones."

There are similar other quotes scattered throughout Tolkien's letters. If you really want to hang Tolkien for unsavory opinions, a more fertile course would be to consider his views about General Franco (Tolkien was a conservative Catholic, after all), rather than his views on race.

[Kalbear]

Roose, do you think that Tolkien had no prejudices at all?

I don't consider him a nazi regardless of those who think his books support Aryan purity - but I can very easily see him being very prejudiced about Jews and other folks. Mostly because, well, that's what almost everyone was back then. It didn't mean he hated Jews, nor did it mean he liked 'em - but it does mean he was prejudiced about them.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Tolkien had prejudices, just not about race. Apart from his luddite tendencies, he also had a distaste for things French. He also wrote a rather painful letter during the Spanish Civil War where he complained that C.S, Lewis was believing that evil commie anti-Franco propaganda.

[Sci-2]

Well he did note that the orcs are like those "mongol-types" Europeans find ugly.

[Arthmail]

Well, RebeccaSigyn, that's a completely useless post. I'm sure everyone's quite happy that they'll no longer try to convince you of that - or really, of anything.

As useless as yours, and my response to yours. When did people stating their opinion become a bad thing around here?