One small fact: Joffrey was not evil

[Revan Baratheon]

In Cersei's POV,its mentioned how Robert "would claim his right atleast once every week during their first couple of years of marriage" Cersei remembers complaining to Robert next morning that he was too rough on her.

Just complaining mind you,she dosent start screaming at him for raping her or anything.

But most readers intepret it as rape and it technically is rape since Cersei was unwilling.Which makes me wonder wether Catelyn,Lysa,(every lady who had arranged marriage without initial/never any love) were also

"raped" during their first night.

[deleted01]

Donning my armour to get into this discussion.. Before anyone starts, marital rape is still rape to the majority of us (I say majority because in some countries it isn't considered an offence, but it is in most, and rightly so). However, we learn that it is rape when a woman says "no", either by literally saying no or stop, whatever, or by fighting. So, how do we interpret what happened between Robert and Cersei? I've been in this discussion before, and been burnt quite badly for my opinions, so I'm going to tread carefully here. In the time on which ASOIAF is based, marital rape wasn't really an issue. If a woman denied the husband his right to have sex with her, he was within his rights to force her, and even beat her if he saw it was necessary. As Robert was king, his wife had the responsibility to give him heirs. If Cersei denied to have sex in order to create those heirs (leaving out the incest for the moment), Robert would have been within his rights to take it. I don't recall her ever telling him that she did not want to have sex with him at one particular time; instead, she used other ways of not, ehm, having his seed enter her, shall we say. So legally, technically, it wasn't rape, not for the time in which it is set. Morally, it's not right, but I wouldn't call Robert an out-and-out rapist.

Also, I know he slapped her in the show, but did we have an obvious moment where he "beat" or hit her in the books? Again, it's not right, but he was hardly the wife-beater that just hits his wife for no particular reason. Cersei is an evil, scheming bitch. That doesn't mean she deserves to be hit by a man much bigger and stronger than she is, but I cannot for the life of me recall a particular incident. And if it's in Cerseis' chapters, can we trust her perception of it, or is it a black-and-white thing for most people - i.e., there's no excuse for a man to hit a woman?

[deleted01]

But most readers intepret it as rape and it technically is rape since Cersei was unwilling.Which makes me wonder wether Catelyn,Lysa,(every lady who had arranged marriage without initial/never any love) were also "raped" during their first night.

That's such a good point. I'd say most wives were unwilling to be married, but were forced by their fathers. Does that mean the consummation of their marriage was rape? I don't know, I'd be interested to see what others say though.

[Pliny]

Making fun of Tommen jousting, cat and kittens and there must have been other things he did around Tommen, because when talking to Jaime Tommen said something like: "I used to go away in my head when Jofrey... he..." And here someone iterrupted them. So maybe Joffrey tortured some more kittens.

When I read this part I had not looked at any discussions or analyses of this saga on the internet or anywhere else, and I read it that Joffrey had molested/raped Tommen. It's pretty classic rape-victim stuff, and I thought that's what we were supposed to think.

Joffrey comes off as being a pretty flat character. Tell you something good about him? As Sansa said, "...he is very comely." He was written as the baddest-of-the-bad-kick-the-dog-disposable villain. He was never clever enough to be the main antagonist, but rather he's the obstacle we love to hate. I just don't see any more to him than that.

[Gurkhal]

When I read this part I had not looked at any discussions or analyses of this saga on the internet or anywhere else, and I read it that Joffrey had molested/raped Tommen. It's pretty classic rape-victim stuff, and I thought that's what we were supposed to think.

Joffrey comes off as being a pretty flat character. Tell you something good about him? As Sansa said, "...he is very comely." He was written as the baddest-of-the-bad-kick-the-dog-disposable villain. He was never clever enough to be the main antagonist, but rather he's the obstacle we love to hate. I just don't see any more to him than that.

That's interesting even if I'm perfectly sure it is incorrect. I read it that when Joffrey would conduct one of his victimizing acts Tommen would go away inside. There's no way that Joffrey who is no humanitarian would come up to molest his little brother but at the same time not have any sexual urges to think out some form of sexual transgression toward Sansa.

[Pliny]

That's such a good point. I'd say most wives were unwilling to be married, but were forced by their fathers. Does that mean the consummation of their marriage was rape? I don't know, I'd be interested to see what others say though.

Hmm... Do you mean just those we've seen in this story, or in an arranged-marriage culture? If the latter, I have to disagree. For most of history, marriages were an arranged contract between a bride's father and her would-be husband. Girls would have been raised in a world where this is really the only way it's done, so they wouldn't have any reason to long for a marriage based on "true love." Also, in these cultures there are not many other options for women besides marriage, and this seems to be true also in Westeros. In western cultures throughout history (I'm not as well-versed in eastern) the expectation was that a partnership of love would develop over time, with effort.

[The King in the South]

I don't remember Robert punching Joffery. I remember him striking him too hard. There's a HUGE difference. Someone correct me if Robert actually attacked his son with his fist. You can backhand or slap a child hard enough to knock him for a loop. And Robert was one of the largest and strongest men in the whole kingdom at that time. It wouldnt take too much for Robert to accidentally hit Joffery too hard with an open hand.

Similarly I don't recall Cersei or anyone else actually accusing Robert of rape. It seems another stretch that's not even relevant to your point about Joffrey.

edit to add this from Wiki: "Once after learning a kitchen cat was pregnant, Joffrey killed the animal and cut open its belly to see the kittens inside. He showed one of the unborn kittens to his "father". Robert was so shocked and angry he hit the boy so hard it knocked out two of his baby teeth. (A Storm of Swords, Chapter 63, Davos.)

I don't have the text to check, but I don't think he punched his son. Anyone able to check?

I believe the quote is first given by Renly, but I'm not certain. Regardless, I don't see how you can almost kill someone with just a slap. Joffrey had to have been knocked unconcious if people thought he had died, so unless he managed to fall and land on a rock, I'm inclined to believe it was Robert's force. And if he did fall on a rock, you would have thought Robert would have tried to see if he was alright, but nah

Donning my armour to get into this discussion.. Before anyone starts, marital rape is still rape to the majority of us (I say majority because in some countries it isn't considered an offence, but it is in most, and rightly so). However, we learn that it is rape when a woman says "no", either by literally saying no or stop, whatever, or by fighting. So, how do we interpret what happened between Robert and Cersei? I've been in this discussion before, and been burnt quite badly for my opinions, so I'm going to tread carefully here. In the time on which ASOIAF is based, marital rape wasn't really an issue. If a woman denied the husband his right to have sex with her, he was within his rights to force her, and even beat her if he saw it was necessary. As Robert was king, his wife had the responsibility to give him heirs. If Cersei denied to have sex in order to create those heirs (leaving out the incest for the moment), Robert would have been within his rights to take it. I don't recall her ever telling him that she did not want to have sex with him at one particular time; instead, she used other ways of not, ehm, having his seed enter her, shall we say. So legally, technically, it wasn't rape, not for the time in which it is set. Morally, it's not right, but I wouldn't call Robert an out-and-out rapist.

Also, I know he slapped her in the show, but did we have an obvious moment where he "beat" or hit her in the books? Again, it's not right, but he was hardly the wife-beater that just hits his wife for no particular reason. Cersei is an evil, scheming bitch. That doesn't mean she deserves to be hit by a man much bigger and stronger than she is, but I cannot for the life of me recall a particular incident. And if it's in Cerseis' chapters, can we trust her perception of it, or is it a black-and-white thing for most people - i.e., there's no excuse for a man to hit a woman?

Well, after one such night, (as to the beating, she references mauling/pounding that would leave her red and sore, but I don't have the exact quote) she confronts him about it. Robert being Robert, blames the alcohol, and so Cersei smashes his alcohol glass into his face. If that's not a "no" I don't know what it is. And then he kept on doing it, which is why I consider it rape.

This stuff was happening longggggg before the events in AGOT, so I highly doubt he started abusing Cersei because she was plotting and shit. I don't even think the kids were born by this time

[Winter's Knight]

Also, I know he slapped her in the show, but did we have an obvious moment where he "beat" or hit her in the books? Again, it's not right, but he was hardly the wife-beater that just hits his wife for no particular reason. Cersei is an evil, scheming bitch. That doesn't mean she deserves to be hit by a man much bigger and stronger than she is, but I cannot for the life of me recall a particular incident. And if it's in Cerseis' chapters, can we trust her perception of it, or is it a black-and-white thing for most people - i.e., there's no excuse for a man to hit a woman?

The scene from the show is in the books and I believe Cersei mentions in her POVs that:

1. Robert did hit her but never where the marks would be visible, else Jaime would've killed him.

2. The one time he struck her openly was when Jaime was out of town.

[Pliny]

That's interesting even if I'm perfectly sure it is incorrect. I read it that when Joffrey would conduct one of his victimizing acts Tommen would go away inside. There's no way that Joffrey who is no humanitarian would come up to molest his little brother but at the same time not have any sexual urges to think out some form of sexual transgression toward Sansa.

I'm not saying my initial read was hands-down correct (it's never stated exactly what Tommen is recoiling from) but I do think his "go away inside" thing recalls the words of many sex-abuse victims. But, as you say, for a young child, this could be the answer to any sort of unpleasantness, I suppose. As I said, I really thought that's what we were supposed to take away from it, so I was surprised to see people reacting so strongly against that theory. Or maybe I've seen too many episodes of Law & Order: SVU.

As far as Joffrey not having any sexual abuses of Sansa, doesn't Tyrion comment to Cersei that he didn't recall Joffrey pulling the tops off any of his other playmates? I apologize that I can't remember the exact language, but Tyrion, at least, seemed to be saying that these cruel "japes" were different, and had a sexual subtext which Cersei, as mommy, didn't want to see in her baby boy. Joffrey does seem to recognize marriage to Sansa as some kind of barrier to "getting a son on her," so perhaps that's why we don't see anything more direct. What he does do to her, though, is humiliating enough. Remember that Sansa's what- 13? - being stripped, beaten, groped (and in public) is pretty sexually humiliating.

[Winter's Knight]

I believe the quote is first given by Renly, but I'm not certain. Regardless, I don't see how you can almost kill someone with just a slap. Joffrey had to have been knocked unconcious if people thought he had died, so unless he managed to fall and land on a rock, I'm inclined to believe it was Robert's force. And if he did fall on a rock, you would have thought Robert would have tried to see if he was alright, but nah

:agree:

I don't understand how people seem to be forgetting that Joffery was seven years old-do you know how delicate kids are at that age? Hard blows can and have killed children that young.

[deleted01]

Hmm... Do you mean just those we've seen in this story, or in an arranged-marriage culture? If the latter, I have to disagree. For most of history, marriages were an arranged contract between a bride's father and her would-be husband. Girls would have been raised in a world where this is really the only way it's done, so they wouldn't have any reason to long for a marriage based on "true love." Also, in these cultures there are not many other options for women besides marriage, and this seems to be true also in Westeros. In western cultures throughout history (I'm not as well-versed in eastern) the expectation was that a partnership of love would develop over time, with effort.

Well seeing as ASOIAF is based on sort of middle-aged England, I'd say the majority of arranged marriages were of similar nature. You've said it yourself actually - just because they had no other options and were/are brought up to expect that they would be married off to someone, doesn't mean they are willing to do it. Look at Catelyn for example - she thought she would be marrying Brandon, and the prospect pleased her, but she ended up with Ned who was a disappointment at first. Luckily for her, it worked out and they found love with each other. She knew she had to do her duty and marry Ned, despite her misgivings, but I wouldn't call her willing. From what I know of arranged marriages in western culture (like you, I do not know enough on eastern culture to comment - not that I'm an expert on western), the girl had no choice in the matter, and was probably terrified of consummating her marriage with a man she didn't know, but she was still "forced" to do it, by law or custom or duty, whatever. Is this rape? I don't really have an answer to that, as it's a difficult thing for us to understand I think - I was more wondering what others thought on it.

[deleted01]

The scene from the show is in the books and I believe Cersei mentions in her POVs that:

1. Robert did hit her but never where the marks would be visible, else Jaime would've killed him.

2. The one time he struck her openly was when Jaime was out of town.

Ah, thank you for clearing that up. I shall pay close attention to her POVs when I get to them on my reread.

[Winter's Knight]

Ah, thank you for clearing that up. I shall pay close attention to her POVs when I get to them on my reread.

My apologies, Cersei mentions it to Ned when he confronts her in the Godswood:

Ned touched her cheek gently. "Has he done this before?"

"Once or twice." She shied away from his hand. "Never on the face before. Jaime would have killed him, even if it meant his own life."

[deleted01]

My apologies, Cersei mentions it to Ned when he confronts her in the Godswood:

Ohh, that was in the show too. It gets bloody confusing keeping track of what's in the books and what isn't. Thanks for the quote! :)

[ChromeWeasel]

...Regardless, I don't see how you can almost kill someone with just a slap. Joffrey had to have been knocked unconcious if people thought he had died, so unless he managed to fall and land on a rock, I'm inclined to believe it was Robert's force. And if he did fall on a rock, you would have thought Robert would have tried to see if he was alright, but nah

Robert is well documented as one of the largest and strongest warriors of his time. Are you actually saying that you don't know how one of the largest and strongest men on the continent could knock out a child with a slap? I would be surprised if I couldnt do that, and I'm just a regular guy that works out. It's pretty reasonable to lose your temper and get carried away when what's on the receiving end is a 7 year old. Anyone that's familiar with the movie Airplane might remember Kareem talking about his scene in the cockpit where he has to grab little Joey in anger. Kareem mentioned that when he grabbed the kid he almost tossed him across the set; he just didnt know his own strength and how light the kid was going to be. In Robert's case he's be a lot stronger than Kareem, and the kid would be even younger and more fragile.

Well, after one such night, (as to the beating, she references mauling/pounding that would leave her red and sore, but I don't have the exact quote) she confronts him about it. Robert being Robert, blames the alcohol, and so Cersei smashes his alcohol glass into his face. If that's not a "no" I don't know what it is. And then he kept on doing it, which is why I consider it rape.

This stuff was happening longggggg before the events in AGOT, so I highly doubt he started abusing Cersei because she was plotting and shit. I don't even think the kids were born by this time

I'd have to see the text on that. Robert having vigorous sex that Cersei finds distasteful is not the same thing as rape. I remember Cersei bragging about how he didnt touch her that much any more and that when he did, she never let him finished inside of her. If Cersei tells Robert he's too violent, and the end result is that he lays off and barely touches her any more, that doesn't indicate rape. It suggests the exact opposite. Robert took his distasteful and vigorous sexual appetite out to the whores, and largely left Cersei alone. That's certainly not an ideal husband, but it's also about a far away as you can get from Robert forcing himself on and therefore raping Cersei.

At any rate, people are way too casual with throwing the term rape around with regards to Robert. If you consider rape a heinous act you shouldnt be casually throwing that term around for what happens between consenting adults.

[ChromeWeasel]

dupe post.

[The King in the South]

Robert is well documented as one of the largest and strongest warriors of his time. Are you actually saying that you don't know how one of the largest and strongest men on the continent could knock out a child with a slap? I would be surprised if I couldnt do that, and I'm just a regular guy that works out. It's pretty reasonable to lose your temper and get carried away when what's on the receiving end is a 7 year old. Anyone that's familiar with the movie Airplane might remember Kareem talking about his scene in the cockpit where he has to grab little Joey in anger. Kareem mentioned that when he grabbed the kid he almost tossed him across the set; he just didnt know his own strength and how light the kid was going to be. In Robert's case he's be a lot stronger than Kareem, and the kid would be even younger and more fragile.

I'd have to see the text on that. Robert having vigorous sex that Cersei finds distasteful is not the same thing as rape. I remember Cersei bragging about how he didnt touch her that much any more and that when he did, she never let him finished inside of her. If Cersei tells Robert he's too violent, and the end result is that he lays off and barely touches her any more, that doesn't indicate rape.

At any rate, people are way too casual with throwing the term rape around with regards to Robert. If you consider rape a heinous act you shouldnt be casually throwing that term around for what happens between consenting adults.

"Taena warmed the bed as well as Robert had, and he never tried to force Cersei's legs apart" AFFC 684

"Those had been the worst of nights, lying helplessly underneath him as he took his please. Usually he rolled off and went to sleep as soon as it was done, and was snoring before his seed dry upon her thighs. She was always sore afterward, raw between the legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he would give them." AFFC 685

"For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her disppleasure the next day. "You hurt me," she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. "It was not me, my lady," he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. "It was the wine. I drink too much wine." To wash down his admission, he reached for hi shorn of ale. As he raised it to his mouth she smashed her own horn in his face, so hard she chipped a tooth." AFFC 686

"Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assualts did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end if was not even once a year. He never stopped completely though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. AFFC 686

All of these are Cersei's reflections to herself, not to anyone else. Chew on that.

And okay? Even if Robert "just slapped him hard enough to knock him out and chip two of his teeth" (I guess we'll have to disagree on this point) you would think he would have tried to see if the boy was alright, to apologize, to explain why he did that and why what Joffrey did was wrong, but he didn't do any of those things. Which was my entire point.

[ChromeWeasel]

"Taena warmed the bed as well as Robert had, and he never tried to force Cersei's legs apart" AFFC 684

"Those had been the worst of nights, lying helplessly underneath him as he took his please. Usually he rolled off and went to sleep as soon as it was done, and was snoring before his seed dry upon her thighs. She was always sore afterward, raw between the legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he would give them." AFFC 685

"For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her disppleasure the next day. "You hurt me," she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. "It was not me, my lady," he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. "It was the wine. I drink too much wine." To wash down his admission, he reached for hi shorn of ale. As he raised it to his mouth she smashed her own horn in his face, so hard she chipped a tooth." AFFC 686

"Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assualts did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end if was not even once a year. He never stopped completely though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. AFFC 686

All of these are Cersei's reflections to herself, not to anyone else. Chew on that.

And okay? Even if Robert "just slapped him hard enough to knock him out and chip two of his teeth" (I guess we'll have to disagree on this point) you would think he would have tried to see if the boy was alright, to apologize, to explain why he did that and why what Joffrey did was wrong, but he didn't do any of those things. Which was my entire point.

Those quotes paint a lousy picture of Robert and Cersei's relationship. They also don't make Robert a rapist, even by the modern definition of the word. Cersei not enjoying sex with her husband does not equal rape. The only one that gives me pause is Cersei's quote about forcing her legs apart. And that's still subject to interpretation.

As to your point, try making it based on what's written in the text instead of making things up as you go along. You said that Robert punched his son in the face. That's nowhere near the same thing as slapping him in anger or disgust. As you wrote your argument, Robert is an evil villain who brutally rapes his wife under threat of violence and beats his son with his fists. That's not the picture that's been painted of him in this story. He's a flawed character, not a psychopath.

[The King in the South]

Those quotes paint a lousy picture of Robert and Cersei's relationship. They also don't make Robert a rapist, even by the modern definition of the word. Cersei not enjoying sex with her husband does not equal rape. The only one that gives me pause is Cersei's quote about forcing her legs apart. And that's still subject to interpretation.

As to your point, try making it based on what's written in the text instead of making things up as you go along. You said that Robert punched his son in the face. That's nowhere near the same thing as slapping him in anger or disgust. As you wrote your argument, Robert is an evil villain who brutally rapes his wife under threat of violence and beats his son with his fists. That's not the picture that's been painted of him in this story. He's a flawed character, not a psychopath.

No, you don't think even after she smashed a cup in his face it wasn't rape? We'll I'm glad I'm not in a relatioship with you then.

It's said in the books that Robert hit him. Not that he slapped him. That's why I would place more value on it being a punch than a slap; you can interpret it as you want, but I'm not making anything up, and I honestly suggest you reread the conversations regarding the subject.

And I never once said "Robert is an evil villian/psycopath/etc", way to completely take the arguement out of context. I said he was a horrible husband and a terrible father, and that was probably a big reason for Joffrey's resulting demeanor. (Which you know, is what this whole arguement is about)

[Fragile Bird]

Those quotes paint a lousy picture of Robert and Cersei's relationship. They also don't make Robert a rapist, even by the modern definition of the word. Cersei not enjoying sex with her husband does not equal rape. The only one that gives me pause is Cersei's quote about forcing her legs apart. And that's still subject to interpretation.

As to your point, try making it based on what's written in the text instead of making things up as you go along. You said that Robert punched his son in the face. That's nowhere near the same thing as slapping him in anger or disgust. As you wrote your argument, Robert is an evil villain who brutally rapes his wife under threat of violence and beats his son with his fists. That's not the picture that's been painted of him in this story. He's a flawed character, not a psychopath.

I would point out that it appears that every whore who ever slept with Robert seemed to love him truly, madly, deeply. As Ned points out, they loved him (hell, they were whores and they're sleeping with the king, for crying out loud) but Robert probably forgot all about them an hour later. But he definitely seemed to be a lover they wanted back, so it doesn't seem to me he was a brutal rapist.

You have the situation where Cersei did not love her husband and did not want him in bed. She wanted Rhaegar, and though she was happy to have Robert once he was king, that bit about calling her Lyanna just screwed everything up for her. She was supposed to be an amazing beauty, and the thought Robert could call her Lyanna was too much for her. Fortunately, she had a back up plan, you know, the brother she seduced (and likely near-raped, talk about the pot calling the kettle black), so she can try and keep those legs firmly shut when hubby comes to bed.

The fact that the nobility often have arranged marriages, not love marriages, has been around forever. As I recall, the English call it lie back and think of England. Lady Diana made sure there was an heir and a spare (some doubts about the spare, though). Robert said Cersei was as cold as ice to him. No wonder Joffrey ends up screwed up.

And the thought that Jaime could have been a good uncle is a nice one, but Cersei told him to stay away from the children, and lets face it, she controlled Jaime. To the point where he thinks of himself, I think he said, as seed in her cunt. He is totally cut off. It's a pretty bitter man who thinks of himself that way - do you know any of your friends who say that about themselves?

Joffrey is screwed up because of his parents, no question about it. You could do a whole new thread on that topic. In fact, I might start one, because if we don't get back on topic, the MODs are going to shut this down.