One small fact: Joffrey was not evil

[deleted01]

WOW. Let me just point out that Cersei is an unreliable narrator - we never get the events from Roberts' POV, so we can only make a judgement from what Cersei tells us. She may well believe he "forced her legs apart" - that could be a sign of rape, yes, but it could also be a sign of how much she despised him, and while unwilling, she had very little choice when it came to having sex with him, being his wife and his queen, and having a duty to fulfill (I know this doesn't hold with our modern values, but we know that's what a lot of women had to endure in times past, and so in Westeros).

Cersei smashing the cup in Roberts' face again shows her disgust - he wasn't trying to have sex with her at that time, he was actually apologising. Yes he blamed the wine, but he didn't stand up and tell her to shut her mouth, to know her place or he'd beat her, or anything of the sort. If Cersei had smashed a cup in his face while Robert had been trying to have sex with her, I'd take that as a "no", and if he'd continued, it would have been rape. But that wasn't the case.

I can see we all have very strong feelings on this matter, some contrary to others, and this discussion is relevant to Joffrey turning out the way he did, but perhaps a new thread might be good as well. I agree with ChromeWeasel about how I see Robert, but if someone else sees him differently, fine. That's your right as a reader to interpret things how you will. But I completely disagree with the picture that is being painted of Robert.

[Raksha the Demon]

If you mixed one Joffrey and one Tommen in a blender, you'd get one normal Lannister. Instead Tommen got all the nice kitty-loving genes and Joffrey got all the ruthless asshole genes. I guess what I can say about him is a victim of his biological parents' poor choices, his Mother's paranoia and narcissism, his grandfather's belief in Lannister superiority and his "father's" (Robert) neglect and disinterest. He's been spoiled and almost nobody - except Tyrion and Tywin to a lesser degree, does anything to rein in his worst impulses, in fact Littlefinger is able to exploit them for his own purposes.

Of course none of that excuses what he did to Ned, Sansa, the poor pregnant kitchen cat and all the other people he brutalized, but he was his parents monster.

Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella were all products of an inbreeding between twins who were themselves produced by cousins (we don't know if Tywin and Joanna were first or second cousins), which already is loading the genetic dice against the kids to a certain extent. Joffrey turns out be a sociopathic monster; Tommen a sweet-natured boy of average intelligence with an endearing determination to keep trying even when he looks silly or has been knocked down, and Myrcella who seems the best of the three in character - a smart, nice-natured child with a sense of adventure who is confident and poised without being arrogant and very adaptable, actually enjoying being sent away from home and family to be raised in a different culture/place and married there.

There's absolutely no indication that Tommen is anything but normal; he definitely shows a sense of empathy in his relationships with animals. He seems to have been a little lonely; without friends his own age even before he became king; he also seems to want to step out of his rather sheltered existence as king-in-a-bubble, embracing Margaery's ideas of going riding, meeting some smallfolk in King's Landing, etc. There is definitely evidence of some kind of physical abuse by Joffrey; I don't think that Tommen would 'go away inside' if Joffrey was just making fun of him, however mean the comments were; and his reluctance to discuss what Joffrey did in detail when talking to Jaime makes me think that Joffrey either beat him where it wouldn't show or twisted his arm without breaking it (maybe breaking it and blaming Tommen for being clumsy, Cersei certainly thinks Tommen is clumsy) or actually did start sexually experimenting on Tommen. Tommen seems to be a genetic echo of great-grandfather Tytos - an amiable man who let others take advantage of him in his desire to be liked and who, like Tommen, was laughed at - and to some extent, surprisingly (since he's neither tall for his age or strikingly handsome and charismatic - Jaime, in the way he responds to stress/fear - the 'going away inside' that Jaime himself used when he had to watch Aerys roast Rickard Stark alive or slowly strangle Brandon or listen to Rhaella's screams as Aerys hurt/raped her. Tommen also does not seem to have the typical Lannister arrogance; he speaks to Sansa like a little brother or friend well after she is semi-disgraced as the daughter of a traitor. Cersei disciplines him when he's king by threatening to make him whip a whipping boy; something that apparently Tommen finds distasteful. Tommen shows signs of having too tender a heart for kingship; but he could easily be taught to control himself better so he doesn't cry in public, he's only ten years old, and exposure to more of the world could toughen him as he grows.

Joffrey inherited his parents' physical beauty, a lack of empathy that could also be a Lannister trait (Tywin and Cersei seem to have it) and verges on sociopathy, physical health, and an incredible burden of his mother's intense rage against society and Robert Baratheon (the boy's nominal father). Joffrey definitely needed a positive male role model, an active father-figure in his life; and the Hound did not a good substitute make (for which I can't blame the Hound, he knew that he was supposed to guard the boy, not discipline him). Joffrey's nominal father ignored and despised him; his nominal uncle Renly seems to have disliked him; Tyrion certainly didn't think highly of him. Jaime might have been a positive influence on the boy, but Cersei discouraged him from even holding baby Joffrey (if I remember right), saying that people would notice their resemblance. (to me, an excuse; of course they looked alike, Cersei or Jaime could say, Jaime was the twin brother of Joffrey's sister) I think that if Cersei wanted either Robert or Joffrey to act in a paternal way toward her firstborn child, she could have easily manipulated them to do so. I think Cersei wanted to have Joffrey all to herself, to raise him to be the boy, the prince, the future king, that she would have wanted to be. And that meant that Cersei imbued Joffrey with all her own Lannister arrogance, her own lack of concern about the rights of lesser mortals not to be hurt or damaged by Lannister agendas, with hardly any check upon the desires of a boy already in the most privileged position in Westeros as the heir to the Iron Throne. Joffrey was raised in a way that made his probable genetic deficiencies - lack of empathy, sociopathy - worsen exponentially; so that by the time he is barely pubescent, he has tortured animals and, as a new King, not only sentences people to torture, but enjoys doing so. Another first act as a king is to break the agreement to send Ned Stark to the Wall and have him executed instead, which is for Joffrey a show of power, and for the realm a disaster. Not to mention forcing Sansa, a girl guilty only of having been infatuated with Joffrey, to look at her father's severed heads, to threaten her, and then have her slapped so hard it draws blood when she defies him. And, as we know, Joffrey's tendency to deliberately commit evil acts only gets worse.

I did not enjoy watching a thirteen-year-old boy slowly choke to death. But I was glad, as much as I could be glad for a fictional construction, that the realm of Westeros, not to mention Sansa and Tommen and others who Joffrey would surely have hurt or killed as he matured, was spared further abuse at Joffrey's hands. And I mourn, as much as I could for a fictional character, that Joffrey turned out as he did, when, with more sensible and less embittered/selfish people as his actual and nominal parents, he might have been taught to keep his own worse impulses in check.

[deleted01]

<snip>

:bowdown:

Beautifully written. I am absolutely disgusted about the level of abuse Tommen might have suffered at Joffreys' hands, and I'm glad I missed it in the text. You example of the whipping boy is just another reason why I despise Cersei as a mother - she knows Tommen has a sweet nature, who hardly does any wrong, and I bet Joffrey never had to whip another child for his heinous crimes (probably because he'd enjoy it). I have nothing to add to your points about her taking it upon herself to raise and influence Joffrey and not allow neither Jaime nor Robert near him. Just wanted to comment on how excellent your post is :)

[Raksha the Demon]

Thanks, Hedge Knight. Cersei seems to have very much overlooked Tommen, unless she was comparing him unfavorably to Joffrey, until he is crowned king. I think Cersei cares about Tommen, but Joffrey was obviously her favorite - not just because he was the future king, I think, but because he was her first child, and a handsome kid who resembled herself and Jaime and played into both her resentment of her own lack of fulfillment of childhood dreams and her own narcissist tendencies.

It is rather pathetic that there are signs that Joffrey wanted his nominal father's approval and to some extent looked up to him and was proud to be his son. He brings the kittens he aborted to his father to show him something interesting (eww!, but he didn't bring them to Mommy); he sends an assassin to kill comatose, crippled Bran because he thinks that's something Robert would approve of, and later, after Robert's death, he boasts of Robert's great deeds during the Rebellion to his disapproving Lannister grandfather. I think GRRM did a pretty good job writing Joffrey; to me, he's not a cardboard cutout of a character, it's easy to see how he turned out the way he did and the nightmarish signs of just where he would be going if not for the events of the Purple Wedding.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

When I read this part I had not looked at any discussions or analyses of this saga on the internet or anywhere else, and I read it that Joffrey had molested/raped Tommen. It's pretty classic rape-victim stuff, and I thought that's what we were supposed to think.

Joffrey comes off as being a pretty flat character. Tell you something good about him? As Sansa said, "...he is very comely." He was written as the baddest-of-the-bad-kick-the-dog-disposable villain. He was never clever enough to be the main antagonist, but rather he's the obstacle we love to hate. I just don't see any more to him than that.

I don't see is as "classic rape-victim stuff", it could be anyone other type of abuse, not necessarily sexual abuse. GRRM left that for us to ponder. Having said that, I wouldn't put it past Joffrey to have sexually abused Tommen in some form.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

:bowdown:

Beautifully written. I am absolutely disgusted about the level of abuse Tommen might have suffered at Joffreys' hands, and I'm glad I missed it in the text. You example of the whipping boy is just another reason why I despise Cersei as a mother - she knows Tommen has a sweet nature, who hardly does any wrong, and I bet Joffrey never had to whip another child for his heinous crimes (probably because he'd enjoy it). I have nothing to add to your points about her taking it upon herself to raise and influence Joffrey and not allow neither Jaime nor Robert near him. Just wanted to comment on how excellent your post is :)

I had that same thought about a whipping boy for Joffrey. He wouldn't have cared and/or would have gotten pleasure from someone beneath him suffering.

[deleted01]

I will be sick if he did sexually abuse him. I think that's just too much, even for GRRM. Incest, rape, murder.. okay, disgusting but I can deal with it. But a child molesting his younger brother? Nope, can't do it. Maybe my standards are a little off but there's my line, and I'm drawing it. If it comes out that it definitely happened, might be I'll stop reading. But at least we didn't have to read about it while it was actually happening, I suppose. The 'going away inside' thing could point to either sexual or physical abuse, or when Joffrey was hurting the animals Tommen loved, in my opinion, but it's some dark stuff. I'm surprised I didn't pick up on it the first time around. Did Jaime do anything about it, talk to Cersei about how Joffrey treated Tommen, talk to Tommen again? I seriously hope that kid has a good life with his kittens - someone good has to have a happy ending.

I definitely agree that as a character, Joffrey is incredibly well-written. All of the characters are, I think. GRRM certainly has the talent of being able to create a world so real, with such rich characters, that readers want to discuss them again and again, and in such detail as we do. I appreciate how he does it, and that fictional characters can get such a reaction from people, myself included, is an incredible experience.

[Jamie Lannister]

Nice post Raksha.

I sincerely doubt Joff sexually abused Tommen, though. From what we saw of his interactions with his siblings, he was simply an adolescent bully. He talked down to Tommen pretty much every time they had a scene together, mocked him for being "immature," and laughed his ass off when the poor boy got slabbed during Joff's nameday tourney. I'm more inclined to believe he took that sort of emotional lashing up to eleven when the curtains were drawn; perhaps Joffrey's track record of killing defenseless animals was what meek little Tommen was privy to... and fearful of. If there's one thing that boy feels passionate about, it's his kittens.

At least, I think it's more to do with emotional abuse than physical. I assumed "going away inside" was more of an impersonal coping mechanism, like how Jaime shut himself off while he witnessed horror in front of him, not necessarily to him. It could possibly be construed as sexual if expanded a bit, but... well, I just have a very hard time drawing that conclusion.

[Fragile Bird]

I have started the thread, Who's to Blame for Joffrey's Character, so for those who want to delve into the psychology of Joff, please feel free!

ASOIAF General

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

In regard to the questions about whether the women in arranged marriages were raped i think it comes down to individual cases but also we need to take into consideration the laws and culture of the time. Girls were raised to be married off, in the most beneficial way to her family. She was coached and taught how to perform this role most successfully. They were also taught that they May be married off to someone much older and unappealing to them so had to learn to resolve this notion in their head in order to perform their duty. Also by law the marriage was not seen as legitimate until consummated. Boys were raised to believe sex wwith their wife was a right and not a two way negotiation.

I don't see it so much as a rape by the husband (in general) but more a rape of women's right to even say no by the society. i do think there are obvious cases when the wife tried to say no and was forced, and yes that is rape. But in the cases where one party did not want to have sex with the other but submitted to their expected duty regardless (as sansa would have if Tyrion had less scruples) i don't see that as rape but rather an unfortunate by product of the society at that time.

I loved that for all the dothraki's supposed savagery Khal Drogo was the only man (and he was king) who asked before claiming his "right".

[Gala]

In regard to the questions about whether the women in arranged marriages were raped i think it comes down to individual cases but also we need to take into consideration the laws and culture of the time. Girls were raised to be married off, in the most beneficial way to her family. She was coached and taught how to perform this role most successfully. They were also taught that they May be married off to someone much older and unappealing to them so had to learn to resolve this notion in their head in order to perform their duty. Also by law the marriage was not seen as legitimate until consummated. Boys were raised to believe sex wwith their wife was a right and not a two way negotiation.

I don't see it so much as a rape by the husband (in general) but more a rape of women's right to even say no by the society. i do think there are obvious cases when the wife tried to say no and was forced, and yes that is rape. But in the cases where one party did not want to have sex with the other but submitted to their expected duty regardless (as sansa would have if Tyrion had less scruples) i don't see that as rape but rather an unfortunate by product of the society at that time.

I loved that for all the dothraki's supposed savagery Khal Drogo was the only man (and he was king) who asked before claiming his "right".

100% agree.

Yes, it was touching that he actually asked Dany, he even aroused her to "prepare" (You won't, probably, believe, but there are people, who think that was a rape too, even despite that she said yes), but it was only once, her first one (that's where I actually liked Khal), but IIRC he didn't ask after that, he just took what was his, so to say (society rule of that time/that world). Dany definitely got a better 'first night' than many of maidens in Westeros.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Yeah,I agree too. In their world a woman is expected to bring children into the family. So unless you forced yourself on your spouse then by their rules i don't think a non willing, but consenting(if that makes sense) person would be getting raped. For example, I don't think that under westeros rules what Ramsay did to Jeyne would classify as r ape. As sickening as that was to read I believe she did consent, not that Ramsay gave a crap about consenting anyway.

[deleted01]

Finally, some people who speak sense!

Under some of our laws, Drogo having sex with Dany would probably be classed as rape, because Dany was too young to be able to consent properly. Under their laws, and if we forget about her age, it was not rape. It was actually quite a touching and nice scene - I expected this brute to force her, like he does in the show (he's nice, but not as nice, but I can see why they cut out the, ehm, arousal) but he didn't and that was nice to see. And for some, what happened between Tyrion and Sansa was rape - um, no. No penetration = no rape. I didn't even see it as abuse, but that's another story.

I still hold with the notion that if a woman says no, wife or not, then it is rape. It's not always as black-and-white as that, but that's the basis of how I form my opinion. I agree 100% with Blood of my Blood - unfortunately, women had very little rights until not so long ago, and even now I have seen cases of some police officers not believing the concept of rape exists. Actually disgusting, but there you have it. So while they were technically forced to have sex with their husbands, and their husbands might have made it happen, the society in which they live made them do it. Very interesting discussion, I'm glad it hasn't turned into a bloodbath x)

I'll check out your thread, Fragile Bird! It seems like it's going to get interesting :lol:

[Revan Baratheon]

I will be sick if he did sexually abuse him. I think that's just too much, even for GRRM. Incest, rape, murder.. okay, disgusting but I can deal with it. But a child molesting his younger

brother? Nope, can't do it.Maybe my standards are a little off but there's my line, and I'm

drawing it. If it comes out that it definitely happened, might be I'll stop reading. But

at least we didn't have to read about it while it was actually happening, I suppose. The 'going away inside' thing could point to either

sexual or physical abuse, or when Joffrey was hurting the animals Tommen loved, in my opinion, but it's some dark stuff. I'm surprised I didn't pick up on it the first time around. Did

Jaime do anything about it, talk to Cersei about how Joffrey treated Tommen, talk to Tommen again? I seriously hope that kid has a good life with his kittens - someone good has to have a happy ending.

I suggest you read about the relationships between:

Aeron-Euron

Aegon 5-Aerion brightflame

So you see it can be entirely possible for GRRM..

[mor2]

Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella were all products of an inbreeding between twins who were themselves produced by cousins (we don't know if Tywin and Joanna were first or second cousins), which already is loading the genetic dice against the kids to a certain extent. Joffrey turns out be a sociopathic monster;

juts a little nitpick, iirc sociopathy is environmental rather than hereditary and inbreeding isn't the end of the world, espcaily in family that we dont know of previous mental problems like the lannisters.

EDIT: from a quick look at wikipidea it seems that while inbreeding double your chances (for good or bad) compared to the genral population, those numbers are still in the lower end of the single digit area.

EDIT2: "lack of empathy " is not a hereditary condition as far as I am aware of. a very nice post but I think that it blames the genetic component to much.

[deleted01]

I suggest you read about the relationships between:

Aeron-Euron

Aegon 5-Aerion brightflame

So you see it can be entirely possible for GRRM..

Ugh, really? I'd rather not :( but thanks.

[Raksha the Demon]

juts a little nitpick, iirc sociopathy is environmental rather than hereditary and inbreeding isn't the end of the world, espcaily in family that we dont know of previous mental problems like the lannisters. EDIT: from a quick look at wikipidea it seems that while inbreeding double your chances (for good or bad) compared to the genral population, those numbers are still in the lower end of the single digit area. EDIT2: "lack of empathy " is not a hereditary condition as far as I am aware of. a very nice post but I think that it blames the genetic component to much.

Inbreeding magnifies the genes already in the family; for good or otherwise, as any knowledgeable dog breeder could tell you - you should be darned sure that great-grandma was healthy before you try it. An inbreeding of healthy dogs from healthy lines can be beneficial to a canine breeding program, provided it is done sparingly and followed up with a more distant linebreeding or an outcross, or a linebreeding and then an outcross. The combination of a linebreeding - Tywin x Joanna - followed by an inbreeding - Jaime x Cersei was genetically risky. Not a certainty of disaster, but more risky than Cersei's union with Robert would have been had she allowed the fruit of that union to be born. I never said that Joffrey's problems, and tendency towards arrogance and downright vicious behavior was totally genetic. Is it certain that sociopathy is not genetic? I don't know. But arrogance is a Lannister trait, whether it is genetic or environmental or both - Tywin, Jaime, Cersei, Joffrey, even Tyrion, share it; though Tommen does not.

No insult to dogs is intended by comparing them to Lannisters, or vice versa; I just have more knowledge about dog breeding than I do about human heredity, and I'm certainly no expert on any kind of genetics - far from it.

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

Yeah i was wondering what the euron /aeron back story was..the constant reference to the creaking of a gate/door. Urg if it is something as sinister as that :(

fire & blood - yeah im glad im not the only one who sees that issue as not entirely black and white (in the context of the time and culture that is). The age thing makes me feel pretty ick at times but i guess a have to remind myself that for that period once a girl began menstrating for most she was then seen as a woman. it is interesting that despite that there are plenty of characters who would rather their potential match be older.

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

Edit: double post and something else i don't know how i did.

[deleted01]

fire & blood - yeah im glad im not the only one who sees that issue as not entirely black and white (in the context of the time and culture that is). The age thing makes me feel pretty ick at times but i guess a have to remind myself that for that period once a girl began menstrating for most she was then seen as a woman. it is interesting that despite that there are plenty of characters who would rather their potential match be older.

That's another argument I've had on here, about when a girl becomes a woman. Nowadays in Western culture, that's usually when she's finished education, can vote, get married, get a job, drink alcohol and everything like that without parental permission, so I'd say about 18 for England. Some might say 16, as you can legally become a parent then, but I think that's too young. In Westeros, and certainly in times past, it would be when they begin menstruating. Does that make them an adult, or are they still a child? To me, they're still children - I know what I was like at 13, but girls like Arya and Dany are so much more mature than I was because they had to be. So it's all about perspective, I suppose. It's disgusting to us that a grown man would marry and have sex with a 13 year old girl, but if it wasn't frowned upon then, I see no problem from their perspective.

Tbh I forget how young they all are in these books :lol: