When is an assault not an assault: when the Judge sympathizes with the attacker and says it's not

[Robin Of House Hill]

You're absolutely right. Someone who is actually Muslim has far less weight than your accusations against a multitude of theoretical Muslims through the filter of your own imagination and speculation.

Unless they've become disenchanted, people hardly ever cast their own beliefs and the institutions that surround them, in a bad light. So, unless someone can do the Vulcan mind meld, agreement is unlikely to be reached on this point.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Robin,

I'm Orthodox Christian. I have no illusions that everything the Orthodox Church has done involves sunshine and Lollipops. I love my Church but I do it with my eyes open.

[TrueMetis]

Well, if you put it that way, you are asking for a fight. I think the overwhelming majority of Christians know Jesus was a Jew.

Doubtful, when in the US something like 40% of people believe the earth is less than 10000 years old.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TM,

Doubtful, when in the US something like 40% of people believe the earth is less than 10000 years old.

Upon what do you base that assertion?

I assume it's from this gallup poll:

http://wwwgallup.com/poll/145286/four-americans-believe-strict-creationism.aspx

I'd love to see the actual questions asked.

[TrueMetis]

TM,

Upon what do you base that assertion?

I assume it's from this gallup poll:

http://wwwgallup.com/poll/145286/four-americans-believe-strict-creationism.aspx

I'd love to see the actual questions asked.

Isn't this the question they use though? It's right near the top.

Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human

beings? 1) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced

forms of life, but God guided this process, 2) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less

advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process, 3) God created human beings pretty much in their

present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so]?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

There is a link to methodology and questions that didn't come up when I clicked on it.

[TrueMetis]

There is a link to methodology and questions that didn't come up when I clicked on it.

When I click on it the PDF that comes up has the same question listed, along with the numbers they've gotten in the past.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Well. That's depressing.

[TrueMetis]

Well. That's depressing.

At the very least it does seem to be getting better.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Robin Hill

It is interesting how people will accept uncorroborated evidence, when it supports their point of view. I'm not saying that there was anything untrue contained in the post you refer to, just that you are eager to accept what you agree with.

Or, perhaps, some of us have talked to many Muslims, and the story has been, strangely, consistent, on the point of the role of Mosques in local communities, as well as the variability in the anti-Jew rhetoric. The strain of Islam practiced in small, remote village in Pakistan is going to be markedly different than the strain of Islam practiced in Jakarta, which is again markedly different from the Islam popular amongst African-Americans, etc. It seems almost a given that Islam varies a lot from region to region, and from tradition to tradition, which is why Res Ipsa Loquitur's insistence that Islam must mean THIS, THIS, and THAT seem very odd to people with exposure to Islam. If you look at Catholicism, you will find small differences in flavor and tone from, say, Southern Italy to Uganda. The claim that all flavors of Islam must be promoting violence against non-believers, that they must be teaching Muslims to hate Jews, that they all must be anti-Westernization, beggars belief in any rational minds.

Re: Res Ipsa Loquitur

Ive never seen a Christian "explode in rage" at the suggestion that Jesus was Jewish.

Oh really? Next time, bring a crucifix depicting Jesus in the dark-brown skin tone and Semitic physical features native to Jewish people of his time and his geographical location, and see how that goes. Or maybe you just didn't notice the prevalence of blond-haired blue-eyed Jesus images?

But his ONE story does not disprove the vast reported evidence to the contrary. Its also possible that he is less than...forthright...in what he writes, whether consciously or not. I am not SAYING he/she IS being dishonest, Im just raising it as one of several possibilities.

Well, you could also be lying. I'm not saying you are, I'm just raising that as one of several possibilities.

Also, the "vast reported evidence" is not in your favor, given the millions of Muslims of the world that do not commit violence against non-Muslims, every day. The ones that you are citing are the exceptions, not the norm. The fact that you insist on the reverse is both puzzling in an intellectual sense and insulting to Muslims of the world.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Robin,

I'm Orthodox Christian. I have no illusions that everything the Orthodox Church has done involves sunshine and Lollipops. I love my Church but I do it with my eyes open.

Ser Scot,

1. Not everyone is as level-headed as you seem to be.

2. Not all branches of Christianity react the same.

Re: Robin Hill

Or, perhaps, some of us have talked to many Muslims, and the story has been, strangely, consistent, on the point of the role of Mosques in local communities, as well as the variability in the anti-Jew rhetoric. The strain of Islam practiced in small, remote village in Pakistan is going to be markedly different than the strain of Islam practiced in Jakarta, which is again markedly different from the Islam popular amongst African-Americans, etc. It seems almost a given that Islam varies a lot from region to region, and from tradition to tradition, which is why Res Ipsa Loquitur's insistence that Islam must mean THIS, THIS, and THAT seem very odd to people with exposure to Islam. If you look at Catholicism, you will find small differences in flavor and tone from, say, Southern Italy to Uganda. The claim that all flavors of Islam must be promoting violence against non-believers, that they must be teaching Muslims to hate Jews, that they all must be anti-Westernization, beggars belief in any rational minds.

Some of us, including myself, have had such conversations., but I was responding to what you actually wrote, which was this.

I find it incredible that you can say this right after someone posted some first-hand experience as a Muslim.

[Tempra]

Oh really? Next time, bring a crucifix depicting Jesus in the dark-brown skin tone and Semitic physical features native to Jewish people of his time and his geographical location, and see how that goes. Or maybe you just didn't notice the prevalence of blond-haired blue-eyed Jesus images?

Prevalent among whom? Traditionally, in Catholic depictions, Jesus has dark brown hair and a darker skin complexion that is typical of Mediterranean people.

Anyways, are you trying to be ironic with your bigotry?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tempra,

In Orthodox iconography Christ has dark hair and dark brown eyes.

[Verboten]

MC I was talking about prejudice I have experienced from Christians, and yes the heavy handed language was intentional since it was intended as a counter to RiL's heavy handed dismissal of all Muslims. I highly doubt you know anything experiencing about anti-semitism so in this instance I am far more experienced than you.

Scot from what I understand Christ is normally portrayed as looking like the dominant group in the area? In African churches he's black, in the Phillipines he's Filipino. That kind of thing? However a lot of the 'traditional' iconography of him pictures him as white, iirc.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

Re: Robin Hill

Or, perhaps, some of us have talked to many Muslims, and the story has been, strangely, consistent, on the point of the role of Mosques in local communities, as well as the variability in the anti-Jew rhetoric. The strain of Islam practiced in small, remote village in Pakistan is going to be markedly different than the strain of Islam practiced in Jakarta, which is again markedly different from the Islam popular amongst African-Americans, etc. It seems almost a given that Islam varies a lot from region to region, and from tradition to tradition, which is why Res Ipsa Loquitur's insistence that Islam must mean THIS, THIS, and THAT seem very odd to people with exposure to Islam. If you look at Catholicism, you will find small differences in flavor and tone from, say, Southern Italy to Uganda. The claim that all flavors of Islam must be promoting violence against non-believers, that they must be teaching Muslims to hate Jews, that they all must be anti-Westernization, beggars belief in any rational minds.

Re: Res Ipsa Loquitur

Oh really? Next time, bring a crucifix depicting Jesus in the dark-brown skin tone and Semitic physical features native to Jewish people of his time and his geographical location, and see how that goes. Or maybe you just didn't notice the prevalence of blond-haired blue-eyed Jesus images?

Well, you could also be lying. I'm not saying you are, I'm just raising that as one of several possibilities.

Also, the "vast reported evidence" is not in your favor, given the millions of Muslims of the world that do not commit violence against non-Muslims, every day. The ones that you are citing are the exceptions, not the norm. The fact that you insist on the reverse is both puzzling in an intellectual sense and insulting to Muslims of the world.

Actually, look whats happening in Afghanistan, now, over a burned book. MOST of a nation's Muslims rioting over an accidental burning of an already desecrated Koran are prooving well my point regarding Islam. Look at studies that show not insignificant percentages of Muslims in many nations SUPPORT suicide bombings and terrorism against civilians. That goes again to show my point, doesnt it. Pew Research group did allot of polls in this area. Pne poll that supposedly touts "US Muslims show little support of terrorism" should exclaim the opposite; its own study shows 22% of US Muslims find in some way shape or form that suicide bombing in Islams name is quite OK. From the study: "78% believe that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets to defend Islam from its enemies can never be justified" That shows that 22% DO, in some way shape or form, and the support for terrorism is highest in the younger and male sub group than in the elders. Thats a scary thing to contemplate. Study blurb here: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1445/little-support-for-terrorism-among-muslim-americans and a updated study, from 2011. EIGHT% of US Muslims, say this study, feel suicide bombings are OFTEN and SOMETIMES justified. Say there are 2 million Muslims in the USA. That means that there are 160,000 people who believe that its a fine and swell thing to be a suidide jihadist. Now, I have no desire to criminalize thoughts, but how many will cross the line to ACTION? And what is the REAL number? One of the flaws of such studies is that participants dont tell people what they REALLY think for a wide variety of reasons...so, how many Muslims DO think suicide bombings are grand, but simply would not tell a researcher that? And can you blame them for not confessing illegal incendiary desires to a random stranger? I sure dont.

As for images of Jesus...I am Jewish, so I dont pay all that much attention to them, but I have seen Jesus depicted in just about every nationality there is. I have even seen images of Jesus that had a distinctly Asian cast to them. I HAVE seen people upset at the notion Jesus had dark colored skin, but thats a racist thing, not ire that he was a Jewish guy.

As for me, yes, I could be lying. Absolutely. However, I have no reason to. Why should I? TWS, on the other hand, has every reason to be less than honest, even though of course I do NOT know that it is the case in this matter. Think you that he will readily say that his belief is one that encourages killing? It is a fact in his favor how readily he admitted how the general mindset among his Islamic peers was anti Jewish in attitude...I grant that. However Islam by doctrine permits and encourages its followers to lie, in order to advance the cause of Islam...I dont know if TWS is engaged in Taquiyya in this chat, but I cant rule it out...just as you dont know me from a hole in the wall, so you cant say I am not lying because you do not know my character....and you dislike what I write and I believe you feel it reflects negatively upon me. Facts are neither good nor bad, they just are. Taquiyya in Islam is a fact. Neither Judiasm nor Christianity have this deceit inherent within it, established by doctrine. http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html

following passage quoted from this article:http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

Qur'anic verse 3:28 is often seen as the primary verse that sanctions deception towards non-Muslims: "Let believers [Muslims] not take infidels [non-Muslims] for friends and allies instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with God—unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions."[7]

Muhammad ibn Jarir at-Tabari (d. 923), author of a standard and authoritative Qur'an commentary, explains verse 3:28 as follows:

If you [Muslims] are under their [non-Muslims'] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them with your tongue while harboring inner animosity for them … [know that] God has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels rather than other believers—except when infidels are above them [in authority]. Should that be the case, let them act friendly towards them while preserving their religion.

[8]

Regarding Qur'an 3:28, Ibn Kathir (d. 1373), another prime authority on the Qur'an, writes, "Whoever at any time or place fears … evil [from non-Muslims] may protect himself through outward show." As proof of this, he quotes Muhammad's close companion Abu Darda, who said, "Let us grin in the face of some people while our hearts curse them." Another companion, simply known as Al-Hasan, said, "Doing taqiyya is acceptable till the Day of Judgment [i.e., in perpetuity]."[9]

Of course, clicking on the original article will take you to it, and its accompanying footnotes.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Verboten,

That's pretty common. Here's how he is usually protrayed in my church:

http://alphastoredesign.com/search-images/www.holytrinitystore.com/images/christ-of-sinai-serigraph-icon-te310d.jpg

http://www.istok.net/images/D/ic-sd392-icon-christ-pantocrator.jpg

http://www.istok.net/images/D/ic-sd289-icon-christ-pantocrator.jpg

http://www.christthesaviourhbg.org/images/Church%20Icons/The_Ressurrection_of_Christ.JPG

[TrueMetis]

Actually, look whats happening in Afghanistan, now, over a burned book. MOST of a nation's Muslims rioting over an accidental burning of an already desecrated Koran are prooving well my point regarding Islam. Look at studies that show not insignificant percentages of Muslims in many nations SUPPORT suicide bombings and terrorism against civilians. That goes again to show my point, doesnt it. Pew Research group did allot of polls in this area. Pne poll that supposedly touts "US Muslims show little support of terrorism" should exclaim the opposite; its own study shows 22% of US Muslims find in some way shape or form that suicide bombing in Islams name is quite OK. From the study: "78% believe that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets to defend Islam from its enemies can never be justified" That shows that 22% DO, in some way shape or form, and the support for terrorism is highest in the younger and male sub group than in the elders. Thats a scary thing to contemplate. Study blurb here: http://pewresearch.o...uslim-americans and a updated study, from 2011. EIGHT% of US Muslims, say this study, feel suicide bombings are OFTEN and SOMETIMES justified. Say there are 2 million Muslims in the USA. That means that there are 160,000 people who believe that its a fine and swell thing to be a suidide jihadist. Now, I have no desire to criminalize thoughts, but how many will cross the line to ACTION? And what is the REAL number? One of the flaws of such studies is that participants dont tell people what they REALLY think for a wide variety of reasons...so, how many Muslims DO think suicide bombings are grand, but simply would not tell a researcher that? And can you blame them for not confessing illegal incendiary desires to a random stranger? I sure dont.

That's actually lower than I would expect all things considered. How many US citizen support bombing the ever loving shit out of Iraq? Oh that's right 40 fucking percent.

http://www.cbsnews.c...ain930772.shtml

ETA I need to address some points specifically.

the support for terrorism is highest in the younger and male sub group than in the elders.

Support for violence is always higher in young make groups, why do you think that's the majority of basically any army?

EIGHT% of US Muslims, say this study, feel suicide bombings are OFTEN and SOMETIMES justified.

Being 1 percent and 7 percent respectively. Which is an insignificant amount since sometimes can range from they're annoying to their trying to kill us all.

[Tempra]

That's actually lower than I would expect all things considered. How many US citizen support bombing the ever loving shit out of Iraq? Oh that's right 40 fucking percent.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/10/opinion/polls/main930772.shtml

? Where?

[TrueMetis]

? Where?

DID U.S. DO THE RIGHT THING GOING TO WAR WITH IRAQ?

Now

Right thing

41%

Should have stayed out

55%

[Tempra]

Does not compute with what you said. Try again.