The King in the South Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Ok that's a pretty good definition. My only follow up questions would be who determines if someone is too young, too scared or whether or not one's assumptions are reasonable?The government sets the foundation/definition, and the Judges/Jurys interpret and rule on that foundation for each individual case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deleted01 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 In fairness to the Asha/ Qarl scene, I've always assumed that it was consensual kink-play (their dialogue in particular, seemed very... not unnatural as such, but it didn't really sound as if they were speaking with "their voices"- for example, Asha bringing up her husband and using him as a threat). It just really felt like they were roleplaying, to an extent, which is obviously a very different thing than actual sexual violence (in roleplaying one assumes there has been prior play/discussion/consent, for a start). Not to mention Asha's very fond memories of her and Qarl's sexual history. I don't know, I never got the feeling that this was meant to be an actual case of rape. Of course, I could be reading it wrong, is there word from GRRM one way or the other on it?I got the same, but clearly my views are warped, so I'd be worried if I were you :lol: Some women do "get off" on role-playing like that; it's nothing to be ashamed about and it certainly doesn't mean they want to be raped, they just enjoy the.. rougher side of sex. At the end of the day, it was consensual, adult sex and if they wanted to go at it in a different way, cool. Not comparable to Dany and Drogo whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 In fairness to the Asha/ Qarl scene, I've always assumed that it was consensual kink-play (their dialogue in particular, seemed very... not unnatural as such, but it didn't really sound as if they were speaking with "their voices"- for example, Asha bringing up her husband and using him as a threat). It just really felt like they were roleplaying, to an extent, which is obviously a very different thing than actual sexual violence (in roleplaying one assumes there has been prior play/discussion/consent, for a start). Not to mention Asha's very fond memories of her and Qarl's sexual history. I don't know, I never got the feeling that this was meant to be an actual case of rape. Of course, I could be reading it wrong, is there word from GRRM one way or the other on it?In fairness to the Asha/ Qarl scene, I've always assumed that it was consensual kink-play (their dialogue in particular, seemed very... not unnatural as such, but it didn't really sound as if they were speaking with "their voices"- for example, Asha bringing up her husband and using him as a threat). It just really felt like they were roleplaying, to an extent, which is obviously a very different thing than actual sexual violence (in roleplaying one assumes there has been prior play/discussion/consent, for a start). Not to mention Asha's very fond memories of her and Qarl's sexual history. I don't know, I never got the feeling that this was meant to be an actual case of rape. Of course, I could be reading it wrong, is there word from GRRM one way or the other on it?Now I feel stupid. :bang:I honestly never thought of it that way-it does make much more sense, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Is slavery only wrong if it is illegal?Conversely is legalised discrimination right?Well I would say whether or not they're right or wrong is an arbitrary decision which a society arrives at by coming to an agreement. There are many thing which people consider wrong which may not be illegal and many things which are illegal which many may not consider wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I read Quarl/Asha as kinky sex/role play as well.But, I thought Quarl was a woman--a Westerosi version of a butch-lesbian. Am I way off base here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deleted01 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Off-topic I know, but what the hell? I feel lost. Are we discussing how we define rape and slavery and everything that is "wrong"? Because if so, we should probably split this by culture. In some countries, it is not a crime to beat your wife/daughter, or rape your wife (or daughter, for that matter). There are some cultures where it is deemed right that a woman should die is she disrespects the man in her life (father/husband/brother), and does not obey his wishes. Marital rape does not exist, or if it does, the woman has absolutely no rights. In some cultures, women still cannot inherit, they cannot choose their own partners, they must dress in a certain way, they cannot speak to men without permission, they cannot leave the house without a male escort. I'd say the majority of us are speaking from Western cultures, where women do have equal opportunities, can inherit, can do whatever we like without the permission of a man, can go to the police, where rape is illegal, and a serious crime, and marital rape is taken seriously - at least I fucking hope so. The fact is, the definition of each crime will differ from country to country - even state to state in America, does it not? Not by much, I would hope, but my point is that we cannot judge the Dothraki by our modern, Western beliefs, morals, values and laws. We know that marital rape is inherently wrong - Drogo does not see that he is doing anything wrong. Why do we differ? Because, ignoring the fact that he's fictional and we aren't, we have grown up in a society where rape is wrong, in any circumstance, and that the police will arrest and charge you for it, as it is against the laws of the land (I hope - I know there is some corruption but I'd rather not go too deeply into that); Drogo has grown up in a society that follows the strongest, that does not allow women the same rights, and that most likely sees them as a place for a man to get his pleasure, "give his seed" to create heirs (or bastards), and that's it. I don't think the Dothraki have laws, but I may be wrong. I think it's important for us to understand where each perspective comes from before we make assumptions and angry judgments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Well I would say whether or not they're right or wrong is an arbitrary decision which a society arrives at by coming to an agreement. There are many thing which people consider wrong which may not be illegal and many things which are illegal which many may not consider wrong.Then one can argue that since it is society that decides a crime, surely a society that condones rape is messed up?Just because the Dothraki fo not consider rape a crime, does not mean they are not rapists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I read Quarl/Asha as kinky sex/role play as well.But, I thought Quarl was a woman--a Westerosi version of a butch-lesbian. Am I way off base here?O.OQarl is male! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire_Kiss Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Then one can argue that since it is society that decides a crime, surely a society that condones rape is messed up?Just because the Dothraki fo not consider rape a crime, does not mean they are not rapists.Ethics and Mores are determined by the culture of a group. No religion, culture, or ethnic group in Westeros (or Essos) believe that having sex with your wife is a crime.We should make a new topic for this whole rape-not rape thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Ethics and Mores are determined by the culture of a group. No religion, culture, or ethnic group in Westeros (or Essos) believe that having sex with your wife is a crime.We should make a new topic for this whole rape-not rape thing.True, we should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire_Kiss Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 True, we should.Does "we" mean "me"? I don't have a problem with it, but I don't want to make a double. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Then one can argue that since it is society that decides a crime, surely a society that condones rape is messed up?Just because the Dothraki fo not consider rape a crime, does not mean they are not rapists.Yes, certainly. But someone has to decide how to define the crime. And if the characters are unaware of this definition it seems difficult to me, to hold individuals responsible for the failings of their society as a whole. So for example, people say Tyrion raped the slave he had sex with. I would say that if there's society where slavery exists and therefore the slaves are not capable of giving consent then issue is with the institution of slavery and the society which permits it not with the individual. Its not that I think what happens isn't despicable, in deed Tyrion disgusts himself. But I wouldn't call what happens in that case, rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Does "we" mean "me"? I don't have a problem with it, but I don't want to make a double.I shall make one, hold on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Qarl is male!Ha, wishful thinking I suppose. :dunce: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamDanyArya Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 In fairness to the Asha/ Qarl scene, I've always assumed that it was consensual kink-play (their dialogue in particular, seemed very... not unnatural as such, but it didn't really sound as if they were speaking with "their voices"- for example, Asha bringing up her husband and using him as a threat). It just really felt like they were roleplaying, to an extent, which is obviously a very different thing than actual sexual violence (in roleplaying one assumes there has been prior play/discussion/consent, for a start). Not to mention Asha's very fond memories of her and Qarl's sexual history. I don't know, I never got the feeling that this was meant to be an actual case of rape. Of course, I could be reading it wrong, is there word from GRRM one way or the other on it?That's how I read it. Maybe because I'm a married woman but I got the impression it was just really kinky sex. Seemed completely consensual since they are indeed lovers. Asha's a tough woman, she likes her men to be her equal. Nothing wrong with some kinky roleplay stuff if both parties agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baitac Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Is slavery only wrong if it is illegal?Conversely is legalised discrimination right?If you are a slave, you know it is unjust. If you are raped, you know it is a crime or it should be. Sometimes laws and what is right do not jive, so yes, things that are legal can be totally wrong. This isn't a new concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevengeOfTheStarks Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 That's how I read it. Maybe because I'm a married woman but I got the impression it was just really kinky sex. Seemed completely consensual since they are indeed lovers. Asha's a tough woman, she likes her men to be her equal. Nothing wrong with some kinky roleplay stuff if both parties agree.I'm not a married woman and I completely agree with your interpretation. It never occurred to me that it was anything else when I first read it. That was one of the least disturbing sex scenes from GRRM imo, along with Arianne and Arys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Definitely agree with Quarl-Asha, it's pretty obviously just sexplay, and one they're both familiar with. She was wet for him - unlike Cersei for Robert. And, I think that the body functioning might have been a problem with Dany, as well - after a day's ride, sore from the saddle, she probably wasn't able to get aroused even if Drogo tried (don't know if he did or didn't) and sex was painful for her. After she became physically more fit, she started to be able to enjoy sex, or at least this is my reading of it.Concerning Lancel: I finally found what I was looking for, on p.726:"Your own nephew.... You should have looked after him, guided him, found him a likely girl of good family." Not really a par to par position for starting a sexual relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Definitely agree with Quarl-Asha, it's pretty obviously just sexplay, and one they're both familiar with. She was wet for him - unlike Cersei for Robert. And, I think that the body functioning might have been a problem with Dany, as well - after a day's ride, sore from the saddle, she probably wasn't able to get aroused even if Drogo tried (don't know if he did or didn't) and sex was painful for her. After she became physically more fit, she started to be able to enjoy sex, or at least this is my reading of it.Concerning Lancel: I finally found what I was looking for, on p.726:"Your own nephew.... You should have looked after him, guided him, found him a likely girl of good family." Not really a par to par position for starting a sexual relationship.How is he her nephew? Kevan is Tywin's brother, Lancel is Kevan's son and Cersei's cousin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Baratheon Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 How is he her nephew? Kevan is Tywin's brother, Lancel is Kevan's son and Cersei's cousin.Its a typo,although she is certainly old enough to be his aunt.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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