How do female readers view these books?

[Fragile Bird]

:agree: (at RevengeoftheStarks)

Two groups that spend millions and millions of dollars aimed at the two sexes: advertising agencies and law firms. Advertisers know women and men think differently. Lawyers know their clients could swing from the noose or get hit with multi-million dollar judgements if they don't understand how men and women think!

Edit: whoops! flipped the page!

[Summerqueen]

No it was more of a general statement, I have been discussing things with you but others have jumped in and basically decided that I'm a cunt. Dropping further exchanges seems a little extreme, but it's no skin off my nose.

ETA: it would seem that your original post has been deleted? Unless my eyes are deceiving me.

You mean my very first post on the thread? I'll have to check. The one in which I began speaking to you was #318, and it's still there. The mods may have deleted some posts by someone else, though. As I mentioned before, you seemed a tad confused about who said what to you at one point. I never saw one where any post called you names in the last few pages, so maybe those posts got deleted?

[deleted01]

You mean my very first post on the thread? I'll have to check. The one in which I began speaking to you was #318, and it's still there. The mods may have deleted some posts by someone else, though. As I mentioned before, you seemed a tad confused about who said what to you at one point. I never saw one where any post called you names in the last few pages, so maybe those posts got deleted?

I don't know, yeah I got a bit muddled up about who said what, things were going so fast :lol: Sorry about that. The one about 'those types' got deleted, and a couple others I think. Maybe I'll go back and check again...

[Summerqueen]

Cersei is a senior member of the family, in a position of power. She has duty and responsibility towards Lancel, to promote his position, care for his well-being, his social upbringing etc. In a way, what she did is similar to a teacher seducing her student: abusing her power, status and experience, to get advantage of someone who is in no way on par level with her, and towards whom she has duty and responsibility.

She is not on the level of her father or Kevan at that time. Her newfound power from Joffrey is immediately curtailed by Joff, Tywin, and Tyrion as well. I'm sure that we'd all like to see Cersei behave in the responsible way you describe, but her reality is not so simple. As for the student - teacher scenario, I think the analogy works only to an extent. Lancel is not considered to be a child, and she does not have say over his future like his and her fathers do. Until they are no longer undermining her every irrational decision, I can't decide so completely that her treatment of Lancel is a sexual abuse so much as a general abuse of power on all fronts to everyone. I am going out on a limb here. I'm just not convinced by the evidence (not sure i've seen any evidence, actually) that he wanted to say no to her. I'd be happy to examine that more in my next re-read, though, or look at any part of the text you want to offer.

EDIT:

Erm, that's not to say she didn't play him, I mean. She played him like a fiddle, and it sucks to be played, certainly. And her behavior is certainly wrong on a few levels.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

What happened

That's not what I got out of Drogo's encounter with Dany at all. He was tender with her and asked her permission. My take was that Drogo would not have had sex with Dany if she said no. That's one of the things that made him a more heroic character than we had initially expected, and the reason that Dany was so much in love with him, and still pursues men that physically resemble Drogo to her of him.

Drogo was going to have Daenerys whether she wanted to or not, sorry. The Dothraki do not take no for a answer. All of her subsequent rapes prove that point.

[Ygrain]

She is not on the level of her father or Kevan at that time. Her newfound power from Joffrey is immediately curtailed by Joff, Tywin, and Tyrion as well. I'm sure that we'd all like to see Cersei behave in the responsible way you describe, but her reality is not so simple. As for the student - teacher scenario, I think the analogy works only to an extent. Lancel is not considered to be a child, and she does not have say over his future like his and her fathers do. Until they are no longer undermining her every irrational decision, I can't decide so completely that her treatment of Lancel is a sexual abuse so much as a general abuse of power on all fronts to everyone. I am going out on a limb here. I'm just not convinced by the evidence (not sure i've seen any evidence, actually) that he wanted to say no to her. I'd be happy to examine that more in my next re-read, though, or look at any part of the text you want to offer.

Actually, at the time when she is having her affair with Lancel, Tywin is not there, Joff, though exercising some powers, is not controlling her moves, and Tyrion also arrived only afterwards.

As for the teacher-student analogy, well, my students are exactly Lancel's age, and though they are legally "beddable", I'd definitely be fired for that, since it would be abuse of my status towards them; a breach of trust, even if it was fully consensual on their part. I do not have a say in their future, yet I do exercise some authority over them (BTW, the nobles who took a ward or squire were also responsible for his education and upbringing), and they are at a disadvantageous position towards my demands.

I do agree that Cersei's abuse of Lancel goes on all fronts, but the sexual front is there, as well.

Drogo was going to have Daenerys whether she wanted to or not, sorry. The Dothraki do not take no for a answer. All of her subsequent rapes prove that point.

However, we know next to nothing about the Dothraki wedding customs. It might well be that when marrying a virgin bride, the first consent is considered important, while later on it is presumed automatically.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I don't know if it's a pain and suffering contest or not. A few of the posts above strongly indicated that Cersei's walk of shame was as bad or worse than the physical torture inflicted on Sir Osney.

Also, I disagree that Cersei's punishment is nothing more than 'just for having sex.' Ser Osney has already confessed to the High Septom that was trying to frame Margery for Cersei, and he admits to murdering the previous High Septim under Cersei's orders. To suggest that everything the current High Septom does to Cersei is PURELY because of her sleeping around is absurd. The High Septom is no fool. He knows that Cersei is involved in the murder of the previous Septom, and she is clearly trying to set up Margary. Cersei has only confessed to sex so far, but she is ON TRIAL for the far worse crimes as listed.

The High Septon also knows that she is not trustworthy and was playing games with the deal to arm the faith in order to settle debts with, IIRC, The Golden Company and/or The Iron Bank.

[Fire_Kiss]

Drogo was going to have Daenerys whether she wanted to or not, sorry. The Dothraki do not take no for a answer. All of her subsequent rapes prove that point.

Did Dany ever say "no" to him? Even once? Nope. I'm not in the "Drogo raped Dany" camp.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

However, we know next to nothing about the Dothraki wedding customs. It might well be that when marrying a virgin bride, the first consent is considered important, while later on it is presumed automatically.

Knowing what we DO know about the Dothraki makes that highly unlikely. If they do not have a word for "thank you" in their vocabulary, you actually think that they are going to care about a girl/woman's virginity? Doubtful to say the least.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Did Dany ever say "no" to him? Even once? Nope. I'm not in the "Drogo raped Dany" camp.

Why say no when it wouldn't make a difference, as if he couldn't not see, hear and feel her pain and discomfort? The Dothraki take what they want, period. How many examples of that do you need to see?

[PatrickStormborn]

Did Dany ever say "no" to him? Even once? Nope. I'm not in the "Drogo raped Dany" camp.

So it's only rape if the person says "no"? Even though Dany, a thirteen year old girl, was in tears and was planning to kill herself?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

So it's only rape if the person says "no"? Even though Dany, a thirteen year old girl, was in tears and was planning to kill herself?

oh ok. This is the question I've been trying to wrap my head round since everyone started yelling at me about Jeyne pool. can some of you nice people please define the term rape.

[Guest]

oh ok. This is the question I've been trying to wrap my head round since everyone started yelling at me about Jeyne pool. can some of you nice people please define the term rape.

Its rape if a group of people create the conditions where a woman can't say "no" or formulate an idea that she has the right to say "no." In the strictest patriarchies, the idea of "consent" doesn't even exist. So from this definition, Dany, a bargaining chip who thought it was her "duty," to make her brother happy, was raped because her autonomy/choice wasn't even considered.

P.S. even some rape survivors don't say "I was raped" until they see the definitions of rape and how the power dynamics have acted on them. In ADWD, Dany does say to her followers that she was "once a slave," so she might be on a long road to understanding...

[Winter's Knight]

oh ok. This is the question I've been trying to wrap my head round since everyone started yelling at me about Jeyne pool. can some of you nice people please define the term rape.

It's rape if the consent of one partner isn't present.

Consent is deemed absent when:

1.The victim is too young to give consent

2. The victim is too scared to refuse

3. The victim can reasonably assume that refusing/consenting would not change his/her attacker's actions.

Dany could assume within reason that whether or not she said yes, Drogo would take her-he has certainly done so later in their marriage.

[Fire_Kiss]

So it's only rape if the person says "no"? Even though Dany, a thirteen year old girl, was in tears and was planning to kill herself?

So, maybe I'm a hard asshole, and I'm okay with that. But Dany knew that marrying Drogo was going to include sex. There are multiple examples of lords "taking their rights". In this society, sex with your wife- whether she wants it or not is not rape.

In this world, if my boyfriend forces himself on me when I say no, damn right I'm going to press charges to the full extent of the law. But in Dany's world...that's not rape.

And if she wanted-truly wanted-to kill herself, she would have found a way, by golly.

Also... She eventually, not long after she married Drogo, learned the womanly arts of love and took Drogo the way SHE wanted-thereby "proving" to Drogo she was a real person and not just a fucktoy.

Additionally, if Drogo was a raping bastard, do you think he would call Dany "moon of my life"?

[deleted01]

I don't think people are ever going to agree on this Dany-Drogo scenario. I personally did not see it as rape. Dany didn't have a choice, but Drogo didn't physically force her into having sex with him, so I see it as more of an imposition of the laws and customs that restrict women, rather than what we define as rape. Drogo, a much older, much more powerful man, could have taken her as he wanted and that was that, but he tried to make the experience more comfortable for Dany; she ended up enjoying it, and she fell in love with him. I think it commented on that the Dothraki take a woman like a dog takes a bitch (either on the show or in the books, whatever), and I definitely don't think that they follow the same mindset that we do. They are supposed to seem brutal and savage, which makes Dany's ruling over them even more inspiring, and only follow the strong. Look, basically, Drogo was doing his duty by having sex with his wife and trying to get an heir on her. I believe the Dothraki take things quite simply and naturally, and probably didn't much consider that the woman might get some pleasure out of the experience as well. If Drogo was as brutal and horrible as some people see him, Dany surely wouldn't have fallen in love with him, and longed for him after he had died.

I don't dispute that the way Drogo had sex with Dany after their consummation is rape in our eyes - but in theirs, it probably never even crossed their minds. I felt awful for Dany when it was happening, but I was definitely confused as to why and how she fell in love with him afterwards. I know he could be gentle and kind, which is why I don't think his treatment of her was anything to do with cruelty, more what he was used to and what he'd grown up believing he should do. That doesn't condone it, but I like to look for reasons behind actions, and try to gather an understanding of different things that I might not agree with or ever come across in my life, rather than just condemning those who act.

Edit: think Fire_Kiss just summed it up in a much more concise way than I could even hope attempt :lol:

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Its rape if a group of people create the conditions where a woman can't say "no" or formulate an idea that she has the right to say "no." In the strictest patriarchies, the idea of "consent" doesn't even exist. So from this definition, Dany, a bargaining chip who thought it was her "duty," to make her family happy, was raped because her autonomy/choice wasn't even considered.

P.S. even some rape survivors don't say "I was raped" until they see the definitions of rape and how the power dynamics have acted on them. In ADWD, Dany does say to her followers that she was used as a slave, so she might be on a long road to understanding...

I was looking for a more general definition though as well. The question I have is doesn't there have to be some sort of societal consensus about what does and does not constitute a crime in order for that crime to have said to be committed?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

It's rape if the consent of one partner isn't present.

Consent is deemed absent when:

1.The victim is too young to give consent

2. The victim is too scared to refuse

3. The victim can reasonably assume that refusing/consenting would not change his/her attacker's actions.

Dany could assume within reason that whether or not she said yes, Drogo would take her-he has certainly done so later in their marriage.

Ok that's a pretty good definition. My only follow up questions would be who determines if someone is too young, too scared or whether or not one's assumptions are reasonable?

[Winter's Knight]

I was looking for a more general definition though as well. The question I have is doesn't there have to be some sort of societal consensus about what does and does not constitute a crime in order for that crime to have said to be committed?

Is slavery only wrong if it is illegal?

Conversely is legalised discrimination right?

[Skeksi]

This scene and the Asha/Qarl scene made me very uncomfortable-in both cases there was a clear and definite no. Also, in both cases, the men do not coax or cajol the women but take them by force.

In fairness to the Asha/ Qarl scene, I've always assumed that it was consensual kink-play (their dialogue in particular, seemed very... not unnatural as such, but it didn't really sound as if they were speaking with "their voices"- for example, Asha bringing up her husband and using him as a threat). It just really felt like they were roleplaying, to an extent, which is obviously a very different thing than actual sexual violence (in roleplaying one assumes there has been prior play/discussion/consent, for a start). Not to mention Asha's very fond memories of her and Qarl's sexual history. I don't know, I never got the feeling that this was meant to be an actual case of rape. Of course, I could be reading it wrong, is there word from GRRM one way or the other on it?