How do female readers view these books?

[Baitac]

Raksha means you can't talk about it in this thread as it is off topic.

I think I'm going to start a new topic about this. Mods wanted to keep us on topic

[Jem]

As for Sansa, I think everyone agrees she's useless.

It depends on how you define usefulness. Sansa is brilliant at social discourse, she makes a fantastic hostess and she can behave with grace and dignity even under very extreme pressure.

My favourite Sansa moment was during the Battle of the Blackwater. Even though Sansa was under threat she managed to soothe and placate the other high born women. That is the role of a queen. Cersei should have been doing but she fell to drunken, messy pieces. For Sansa, as young woman, to take on that role of leadership with such calmness and strength is an incredible achievement.

When Sansa is attending Joffrey and Marg's wedding, Tyrion thinks to himself that Sansa would have made an excellent queen. This is because, despite Sansa's considerable internal turmoil, she behaves with courtesy and dignity.

These things might not be a big deal to people who define 'usefulness' as being able to fight and act like a man. And that really annoys me that people still think that for women to be as good as a man she has to be like a man.

But the things that Sansa is 'useful' in are very important. High ladies (and most especially queens) need to act as a role model and protector to lower born women, they need to be able to mangage people, they need to know how to be diplomatic and tactful. These are skills that are hard to come by - lucky for Sansa she happens to have an apptitude for them - but she has worked hard to master these skills.

[Queen Cersei I]

As for Sansa well, let us agree to disagree. If she were to become more like Petyr, I could only consider that an improvement.

Ah yes, if only Sansa, and so many others could be more like the honorable Lord Baelish.... :rolleyes: :stillsick:

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Sansa is brilliant at social discourse, she makes a fantastic hostess and she can behave with grace and dignity even under very extreme pressure.

yup, that's how i define useless.

I don't think they have to act and behave like, "a man". I don't think Lady Olena is useless. But yeah, I was taught men and women were equal so I think that women should be equally capable of defending themselves in general.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Ah yes, if only Sansa, and so many others could be more like the honorable Lord Baelish.... :rolleyes: :stillsick:

well Petyr needs people to manipulate. If everyone was like him then he wouldn't have thralls to bend to his will.

[Jem]

yup, that's how i define useless.

Well be glad you are not a High Lord in need of winning and keeping allies. Get yourself a rude, shy, sulky wife and see how well that would benefit you.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Well be glad you are not a High Lord in need of winning and keeping allies. Get yourself a rude, shy, sulky wife and see how well that would benefit you.

If I were picking, I'd pick Brienne.

[brashcandy]

well Petyr needs people to manipulate. If everyone was like him then he wouldn't have thralls to bend to his will.

Ah yes, like Jeyne Poole.

If I were picking, I'd pick Brienne.

And Brienne could help you how? She may be a nice woman, but she's socially awkward and not at all comfortable in the role of a noble lady.

[Queen Cersei I]

And Brienne could help you how? She may be a nice woman, but she's socially awkward and not at all comfortable in the role of a noble lady.

More to the point, I wonder if he'd have much luck with Brienne after he "picked" her. Considering how the girl has treated the last two guys who tried to hook up with her, I'd have to say Lord Littlefinger would not fare too well with the good Lady Brienne. Let's just say methinks somebody's arse would be whipped, and my sources say it would NOT be the maid of Tarth's.

[Tourne-Toujours]

It's an interesting question as to whether women may be offended. I was introduced to the books by my sister so I never considered that point until I lent AGOT to a female friend of my mine you didn't enjoy it. I It must just be the person

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Ah yes, like Jeyne Poole.

I don't remember Petyr ever even being in the room with Jeyne. Is he responsible what every man in 7 kingdoms would do with her?

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

My mum is 68, and she absolutely love these books. :)

As dannister, ipsuel, and Val have said above, none of it bothers me in the least. On the contrary, what a relief to be immersed in a universe where we don't have political correcteness gone mad. Hell, where there is no political correcteness at all!

I agree.

[Dragon greyscale]

This was a perfectly valid question/thread to bring up. Different experiences lead to different perspectives, and I think it's obvious that in many ways the experiences of the two sexes is different. Of course there's going to be a lot of overlap between the two groups when discussing misogyny, violence, etc but that doesn't mean we can't learn anything interesting by examining things from a certain group's perspective.

@ Dragon greyscale, it's not about opinions being more valuable or important because they come from a specific group over another, it's about them possibly being different because of a different experience, and there IS inherent value in examining those differences.

Ah, but this is the crux; I don't agree with the men are from mars and women are from venus thing That is largely a constructed distinction. I don't want to hear the opinion of an artificial group but the opinion of individuals. Before someone misunderstands me: yes women have t&a and men have penises... They differ in biology, but that tells me nothing about their gender-identity. A guy can have "female" reponses and vice versa. IMO this topic only strengthens the cultural construction of men and women.

I might have come off a little rude (apologies) but I don't in any way want to censor people. Every topic is valid, in the sense that everybody's opinion is valid. I just really don't agree with it.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Are you a woman?

I am and I agree.

[Guest]

Dragon Greyscale,

I agree with 99% of your point, and might have agreed 100% if Ginia Bellafanta hadn't written that insulting review of Game of Thrones last year. It made me want to scream I AM FEMALE FANTASY FAN, HEAR ME ROAR! :devil: So in my view, the discussion of "how women read/interpret a fantasy book," is valid because there are some people who don't even think we do such a thing.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I see it as different kind of tortures (Kettleblack or however his name is written) is a physical one, and Cersei's is a psychological one (and physical too, she couldn't sleep, under those circunstances it's easy to get a confession, at some point you are going to say whatever is necessary for it to stop)

And IIRC Kettleback was beaten because the High Septon thought he was lying about his sins (he said he slept with Marg), but I doubt he would have been tortured if he told the truth from the start, he was punished for lying, not having sex which is Cersei's "crime"

I'm not a fan of Cersei, but saying that Cersei had it good because her torture was more psychological than physical it's unfair

A lot more fair than the victims she sent to Qyburn.

[Woman of War]

i am reposting my own post here because everybody should have the occasion to reread. During the debate a "silent whisper" phenomenon happened and obviously my post got reduced to about one sentence that rubbed some people the wrong way. But it was actually a long post where I tried, as it would have been helpful in the debate if people did, to explain where I come from, in my political socialization and socialization as reader. This is in a ways a political discussion here, fitting into this thread more than into some other threads, and it is absolutely appropriate to be of different opinions as long as they are treated as different political viewpoints, due to different political "upbringings" and not as personal attacs.

No, I don't think there is THE female reader, women certainly aren't a homogenous group. Many of us may have experienced job discrimination, sexual assault and other gender related restrictions that prevent us to live the life we wish to live.

But each woman has made her own experiences and reads these books in relation to her own story.

I, for example, am a rather "tough" reader and movie aficionado. Patricia Cornwell rather bores me. I enjoyed "Pulp Fiction", "from Dusk till Dawn" or "Kill Bill" without even flinching, but I had tears streaming down my face in cinema when I watched Spielbergs A.I., the one with the mecha boy, or "Sophie's choice", where a mother has to decide which of her children is to be killed. Why? Because I am a mother. Why am I interested in the character Cersei and not willing to see her as purely evil? Because she is a woman who lives her life as mother. And Catelyn's story was truly heartbreaking to me.

So we have had here hot fights about female characters among women where each woman (and each man) reflects characters in the face of her or his own history. So being not young anymore and having lived in a time where women were actually still restricted by gernder norms concerning feminine behaviour I get easily annoyed by (younger?) female posters who actually see feminine passivity, ladylike courtesy and charming naivety as desirable qualities in a young girl. This is, to put it brutally, treason to the achievements of women's movement to me, a political roll-back, this is where I am touchy. I am of course exaggerating, but I was a child at a time when an outspoken and self confident girl was seen as deviant, if you were ambitious you were not "feminine".

So I have my background story and other women have theirs. They may feel to be denied the right to enjoy their feminity in the face of tough expectations like perfect qualification, great lovelife, impeccable looks because a successful woman just can't afford to be anything but thin and attractive. And your kids should be ooh sooo highly gifted, if they aren't you haven't been enough tiger, mom, your fault! Have you dared to be tired in the evening?

Mothers with sons for example may react far stronger to sexual violence against boys while young women themselves may "only" have experienced sexual threats against girls, female lawyers have different experiences from waitresses, doctors or prostitutes.

Actually the topic is great and most answers have been truly reasonable but it would be a little condescending to expect the "typical" female approach to the books. Martin's story imo offers so much to suffer and to enjoy, I am disgusted by all kinds of violence, not only sexual violence, it is not morally superior to cut someone's throat than to rape him or her. But we would be outright hypocrites to complain about medieval violence in a book of quasi medieval timesetting, after all we read because we enjoy, otherwise we'd throw the books out of the window.

And Martin is a child of his time, influenced, well, by his own history, any good author gives part of himself into his work, there is no such thing as an "independent" or "objective" artist, by approaching the world we interprete it, no work of art exists separately from the artist, translator of the world. So anything else but being influenced by the still existing gender stereotypes in our society would be impossible for a writer. Either he or she adopts them unconsciously, thus delivering unreflected flat characters. Or the writer actively works with those gender stereotypes, deconstructs and reconstructs them, makes use of the readers' expectations, manipulates them, betrays and seduces the reader and delivers a great story that way. I personally think that Martin does a fairly good job here.

and now I am quoting Queen Cersei's post :

I disagree that this is the case. I don’t think that those who happen to like Sansa see (as you put it) “feminine passivity, ladylike courtesy, and charming naivety as desirable qualities,” I think they just so happen to like and sympathize

Your feeling that Sansa should be disliked/ disapproved of for possessing what you dub “feminine” qualities is also interesting. Here, you note that when you were a child, girls were discouraged from having “masculine” qualities. (Horrible and repressive and personality killing societal norms, I agree with you.) However, in castigating a character such as Sansa for possessing what you dub as “feminine” qualities, are you not doing the same thing yourself? Isn’t disapproving or expressing animosity towards someone for possessing the “wrong” kind of traits due to gender just as bad whatever way you slice it? Just as people in your generation hated aggression and ambition in girls because these traits were “masculine,” isn’t it similar for you to criticize Sansa for possessing traits that you dub “feminine?”

IMO, it’s honestly somewhat hard for me to tell the difference between “feminism” as you describe it here and sexism. Both say it is “wrong” for someone to have certain traits because they are dubbed “masculine” or “feminine.”

I do certainly not feel that Sansa should be disliked! She is an abused child, further threatened by whatever sexual And emotional assaults, I deeply feel with her and, were she a RL girl I would of course do everything to help her as I sometimes had the possibility to do in my job. And it does not at all matter here if I would like to chat away the afternoon with her or if I wouldn't prefer, say, Lady Olenna or Missandei.

And it is not correct to get out the big baseball bat of sexism against a politically very established position in the feminist debate only because you do not agree. Although I valued your post I did not like this.

My short remarks about Sansa were actually not about Sansa as a character, they were about the way this character is so much more glorified than other female characters. Why her, for what reason?

This book is full of hugely interesting female characters, first of them Cersei, the most interesting villain, as literary invention much better than LF or Varys who are as well of immense value for the storyline.

What makes Sansa so much more interesting for the fancommunity than Brienne, the other young woman where Martin feels the need to emphazise her virginity. (I am one of the few who like Brienne) why is there no Jeyne Poole, no Missandei fanclub? So many absolutely interesting female characters to root for, some of them will probably never wield a weapon.

Sansa is a young girl coming of age, Martin has described her the way she is, there is no point in idolizing her or in criticizing Martin's idea about her because it is given to us and the author will have plans with her and her development no matter what posters might wish. And everybody is free to like her more or less, I personally think she is an interesting study in growing up and her POVs are often wonderful literature, see her wedding night and snow castle POVs, as well as the two downclimbing scenes, from KL and The Eyrie, very symbolic ( no space here for analysis). But she is not more than she is, an abused child, with some potential, hopefully, for the story.

There are also the twin facts of socialization and survival. First, as a feminist, I also enjoy seeing aggression, ambition, and boldness in women.However, I am slightly bemused as to why posters continue to express anger at Sansa for being passive and conventionally feminine…. When she grew up in a society that encouraged girls to be passive and conventionally feminine, and dubbed their main purpose to be looking pretty so that they could please their husband and have children. (Simply look at Selyse Florent if you wonder what happens to an ugly woman in such a society. Brienne, with her great strength, fighting skills, incredibly indulgent father who lets her eschew every norm of her society and indulge these skills and avoid marriage, does not really fit the bill of typical ugly girl in Westeros. The fact that she is the heiress to rich lands and a huge castle also helps.)

I will get hatemail for this, but I think people prefer to root for Sansa simply because she is beautiful, indeed following the old "beautiful is good, ugly is bad" equation, something Martin wishes to undermine.

I personally admire beauty in people, I see Sansa as true preraffaelite beauty, not so much like Sophie Turner, but actually a different beauty. But this is eyecandy and Sansa's beauty brought her nothing but trouble. Would she find the same fan interest if she were average looking, not admirable but like you and me and the girl next door?

Eyecandy is fine with me but persons with signs and scars of life are so much more interesting to me.

So, while some readers might not like Sansa due to her “unsavory” feminine traits, I don’t really understand the choice of some to more or less blame her for them. (I can recall someone—not you, but another poster—saying that Sansa had, through her personality, “Reaped what she has sewn”—i.e., Sansa is now getting just what she deserves. )

You seem to see the point of feminism as encouraging “positive” “masculine” qualities in girls and woman. I see it as encouraging all, male and female, to reach their full potential without the interference of double standards or harassment or harmful stereotypes. And, as such, I don’t really see how people could completely blame Sansa for her personal qualities, without considering the environment she grew up in. And, furthermore, I’m not really sure why she should be blamed for them—assuming that she grows into an adult, learns better ways of surviving and coping, and balances them out with other traits.

Of course, that is not to say people can’t dislike Sansa—find her boring, less than compelling, whatever. However, the disturbing thing is the strange castigation of her for possessing traditionally feminine qualities, especially in the environment she is in. Furthermore, implying that those who like her are in some ways betraying the feminist movement—and/ or seeing all of her personal qualities as ideal for women and girls to adopt—is pretty unfair.

I was giving my political background here as start for a debate, I explained my first emotional reaction, fully knowing this is something to question and a start for debating. I was hoping that other female posters would contribute their own political socialization and maybe compare their upbringing and the resulting political convictions to mine. It is a pity that so many posters overreacted in an irrational manner, unwilling to discuss and to explain themselves the way I did. Getting at people in an offending manner is basically a waste of everybody's time in a political debate, internet or RL.

Which brings me to situation. Now personally, IMO, those who criticize Sansa for not taking a more active role and being passive seem to be forgetting about the situation she’s in. Taking an active role thus far would not have been brave for Sansa; but incredibly stupid. She was locked up and denied freedom; passivity, false courtesy, charm, and politeness were not her being a “wimpy girly girl,” but simply her best bet for keeping her head on her shoulders.

i do not agree here, I think she could have done some clever things to improve her situation, whether she was at that stage of her development able to do so is open for debate but Martin will certainly give her some tools for that when the books go on.

For instance, your own statement (in an earlier thread) that Sansa “should stop playing the victim soon, or I’ll stop caring” (or something of that nature) was

I personally am not willing to dig into my old posts here nor am I doing this with other posters to prove whatever I like to prove. I react to what they say exactly now. So I cannot confirm or deny anything, not interested. This is not my doctorate thesis here. So let's stay away from somewhat remembered things, I do not remember.

IMO, rather unrealistic. Besides the fact that Sansa is not “playing the victim,” at all (she really is the victim), this does not realistically take Sansa’s situation into account. Though she is not in quite as fraught a situation as she was then(though, imo, LF’s sexual and emotional manipulation of the girl makes Joff’s look like a walk in the bloody park) she would still be best served not by running or fighting, but by staying put and learning to play the game. Which would involve the further development of subtlety, social charm, and other “feminine” qualities.

Why are subtlety and social charme feminine ? They are qualities every politician needs but he or she will be thoroughly unsuccessful if he or she is reduced to that! It is on the contrary a shame that those qualities are less frequent in men. Growing up as personality (this is not first of all an age question, even adult characters like e.g. Cersei, Jorah or Tyrion would have a lot of "growing up" to do here) means being complete and applying the behaviour that is adequate in a situation, not referring to either conventionally learned or acquired stereotypical patterns of reaction.

I have not left out anything in the two quotations so everyone and the mods following this thread can see for him- or herself if there is anything impolite or inappropriate in it. Of course it is a little primitive from my side to feel the need to explain myself in that manner, it would be more cool to brush over other posters in a sarcastic or rude manner ( Not about your post, Queen Cersei!) but actually at my advanced age, I am only around ten years younger than the author of the books we all love, "cool" is not so important anymore.

Sorry for the overlong post but I was a bit disappointed about the "silent whisper" that inevitably has to occur in a long thread where people cannot always browse back and forth. And I do have to insist that my original post was not impolite at all, I was not calling anyone names, or applying rude sarcasms. I am not overly sensitive since I do not know my fellow posters personally, actually I have fighting qualities due to lifelong political activities, but I have to insist on very oldfashioned good manners. Being of a different opinion is not a lack of courtesy.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

You mean to give the gift of the many faced god? The insurer arya killed was cheating families out of their claims.

I sincerely doubt the insurer saw himself as having been given a gift as he drew his last breath. He was murdered, plain and simple. Whether he deserved execution or some less drastic form of punishment for his dishonest business practices is not for a group of hired hit men/women to say. One of the most unintentionally hilarious lines in the books is when the Kindly Man chides Arya for her prayer list, telling her that it is not up to her to decide when/if these people should die. Yet if a customer should turn up at the door requesting the "gift" for one of these same people and was able/willing to pay the required price, then there would be another of those "I know this man/I do not know this man" meetings, and the FM would be more than happy to determine exactly when it was that person's "time."

Even if not, within the context of her religion she only kills those she's specifically designated to kill. How does that make her any different that Eddard or Jon Snow or any other "noble" character?

The Faceless Men are not a religion. They are an organization of highly paid and skilled assassins. They can comfort themselves by calling murder a "gift" if they want to, I suppose, but that does not change the fact that they are a business (and a highly lucrative one at that), not a religion. And the difference is that when Ned or Jon or their ilk are required to carry out a sentence of execution for a capital crime, they are enforcing the laws of the land, out in the open, with no personal gain in it for themselves. I don't care how many euphemisms and Yoda-ish platitudes the Kindly Man spouts. When all the BS is stripped away, all the FM are is a medieval version of Murder, Inc.

[scotcat]

Dragon Greyscale,

I agree with 99% of your point, and might have agreed 100% if Ginia Bellafanta hadn't written that insulting review of Game of Thrones last year. It made me want to scream I AM FEMALE FANTASY FAN, HEAR ME ROAR! :devil: So in my view, the discussion of "how women read/interpret a fantasy book," is valid because there are some people who don't even think we do such a thing.

I agree with you 100% and I've noticed this as well. There seems to be this notion that if you're a fantasy fan you must be male.

As for sansa, I don't dislike her. I feel sorry for the amount of abuse she's been through. But that doesn't mean we all have to feel the same way. It would be boring if we did.

[bgona]

I see the FM the Assassins , that they were told who to kill.

Here I put to what kind I´m refering to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassins