How do female readers view these books?

[ledlevee]

Generally if someone has to resort to personal name calling and stuff like that, it means they lost the argument and they're getting desperate, or maybe one of your posts rubbed that person the wrong way whether intentional or not. The problem with the internet is sometimes since you can't see facial expressions and body language or hear tone of voice, things can be read the wrong way. I've learned you need a thick skin to post in internet forums. That doesn't mean I condone name calling or personal attacks. I despise them. I think people should stay away from doing such things. Just because you can't see the person and they can't punch you in the face, that doesn't mean it's okay to insult them. But I usually find at least some satisfaction in the fact that if someone is calling me names, a lot of times it means I've made a good and potent point.

[mormont]

[mod] I think that's enough of the meta-discussion about other posters, their reactions, your reactions to them, the habits of people on the internet, etc. It's not against the rules or anything, but it does tend to derail threads. Please focus on the topic from here on. Thanks. [/mod]

[All Men Must Rhyme]

What is so great about a thread in which so far every single poster has said one and the same thing, namely that they have no problem with the books :rolleyes:

As could have been expected considering more than half of the board members and fans in general seem to be female ...

Well, at least it's created an interest :P Certainly didn't expect to get this many replies lol, but it's something different.

For me, these are two different things. Scenes like Gregor and his filth raping the innkeeper's daughter are horrible, they make me sick, and I wish for such guys the nastiest ends my fantasy can provide, but I do not feel offended by the fact that GRRM is employing such scenes in the narrative. - Or is my grasp of the meaning of the word "offend" incorrect?

No, you answered my question just fine,as has everybody here actually :) As someone posted in here, these scenes are meant to be sickening, regardless of gender, but I always felt distanced from that, because it's not something I fear of happening to myself. I may be assuming things again, but I imagine that the fear of rape is higher in women than it is in men, and I wondered if, assuming that was the case, you would be more put off of reading the series because of scenes like this and the treatment of women than a male reader would. Obviously, the answer has been a resounding no, but as somebody else mentioned that may depend on your personal experiences, cultural differences, or even vocation. As the historian said, she found areas of history much more graphic and demeaning towards women than anything George wrote. As has also been mentioned a couple of times, asking on the official fan boards isn't going to really get more than one answer, but I appreciate them all the same :P

I do find it interesting that a couple of readers have said they were offended in a sense, but finished the series regardless. I think this is probably true for the majority of readers. I've never been offended to the point of putting the book down, but there have been instances where I wonder why I haven't, and what that says about me as a person :P Again, I didn't know that there were this many female readers on this board, but you've all made some really interesting points, and certainly answered my question. To Ygrain, I was looking for opinions in this thread, so your answers have all been perfectly valid :)

[Ravenhair]

I think this is a great thread, and I have thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's opinions, debates, etc. It is truly fascinating. For me, I started with the television series only because my husband begged and pleaded. I swore I would not watch after the first episode, but I did. I said the same thing after the second episode, but after episode three, I could not stop. Then, I discovered the books, and read, and read, and read (on my third re-read). The books did not offend me, though I thought the Reek chapters were incredibly disturbing on the first read. Interestingly, my husband did not become a huge fan of the books (he's more into the TV series), while I became a rabid one.

[Queen Cersei I]

So we have had here hot fights about female characters among women where each woman (and each man) reflects characters in the face of her or his own history. So being not young anymore and having lived in a time where women were actually still restricted by [gender] norms concerning feminine behaviour I get easily annoyed by (younger?) female posters who actually see feminine passivity, ladylike courtesy and charming naivety as desirable qualities in a young girl. This is, to put it brutally, treason to the achievements of women's movement to me,

I disagree that this is the case. I don’t think that those who happen to like Sansa see (as you put it) “feminine passivity, ladylike courtesy, and charming naivety as desirable qualities,” I think they just so happen to like and sympathize with a little girl who possesses those qualities. To enjoy a character does not mean that one wants to point to every one of their personality traits as ideal for an entire gender.

So we have had here hot fights about female characters among women where each woman (and each man) reflects characters in the face of her or his own history. So being not young anymore and having lived in a time where women were actually still restricted by [gender] norms concerning feminine behaviour I get easily annoyed by (younger?) female posters who actually see feminine passivity, ladylike courtesy and charming naivety as desirable qualities in a young girl. This is, to put it brutally, treason to the achievements of women's movement to me, a political roll-back, this is where I am touchy. I am of course exaggerating, but I was a child at a time when an outspoken and self confident girl was seen as deviant, if you were ambitious you were not "feminine".

Your feeling that Sansa should be disliked/ disapproved of for possessing what you dub “feminine” qualities is also interesting. Here, you note that when you were a child, girls were discouraged from having “masculine” qualities. (Horrible and repressive and personality killing societal norms, I agree with you.) However, in castigating a character such as Sansa for possessing what you dub as “feminine” qualities, are you not doing the same thing yourself? Isn’t disapproving or expressing animosity towards someone for possessing the “wrong” kind of traits due to gender just as bad whatever way you slice it? Just as people in your generation hated aggression and ambition in girls because these traits were “masculine,” isn’t it similar for you to criticize Sansa for possessing traits that you dub “feminine?”

IMO, it’s honestly somewhat hard for me to tell the difference between “feminism” as you describe it here and sexism. Both say it is “wrong” for someone to have certain traits because they are dubbed “masculine” or “feminine.”

:dunno:

There are also the twin facts of socialization and survival. First, as a feminist, I also enjoy seeing aggression, ambition, and boldness in women.However, I am slightly bemused as to why posters continue to express anger at Sansa for being passive and conventionally feminine…. When she grew up in a society that encouraged girls to be passive and conventionally feminine, and dubbed their main purpose to be looking pretty so that they could please their husband and have children. (Simply look at Selyse Florent if you wonder what happens to an ugly woman in such a society. Brienne, with her great strength, fighting skills, incredibly indulgent father who lets her eschew every norm of her society and indulge these skills and avoid marriage, does not really fit the bill of typical ugly girl in Westeros. The fact that she is the heiress to rich lands and a huge castle also helps.)

So, while some readers might not like Sansa due to her “unsavory” feminine traits, I don’t really understand the choice of some to more or less blame her for them. (I can recall someone—not you, but another poster—saying that Sansa had, through her personality, “Reaped what she has sewn”—i.e., Sansa is now getting just what she deserves. :stillsick: )

You seem to see the point of feminism as encouraging “positive” “masculine” qualities in girls and woman. I see it as encouraging all, male and female, to reach their full potential without the interference of double standards or harassment or harmful stereotypes. And, as such, I don’t really see how people could completely blame Sansa for her personal qualities, without considering the environment she grew up in. And, furthermore, I’m not really sure why she should be blamed for them—assuming that she grows into an adult, learns better ways of surviving and coping, and balances them out with other traits.

Of course, that is not to say people can’t dislike Sansa—find her boring, less than compelling, whatever. However, the disturbing thing is the strange castigation of her for possessing traditionally feminine qualities, especially in the environment she is in. Furthermore, implying that those who like her are in some ways betraying the feminist movement—and/ or seeing all of her personal qualities as ideal for women and girls to adopt—is pretty unfair.

Which brings me to situation. Now personally, IMO, those who criticize Sansa for not taking a more active role and being passive seem to be forgetting about the situation she’s in. Taking an active role thus far would not have been brave for Sansa; but incredibly stupid. She was locked up and denied freedom; passivity, false courtesy, charm, and politeness were not her being a “wimpy girly girl,” but simply her best bet for keeping her head on her shoulders.

For instance, your own statement (in an earlier thread) that Sansa “should stop playing the victim soon, or I’ll stop caring” (or something of that nature) was, IMO, rather unrealistic. Besides the fact that Sansa is not “playing the victim,” at all (she really is the victim), this does not realistically take Sansa’s situation into account. Though she is not in quite as fraught a situation as she was then(though, imo, LF’s sexual and emotional manipulation of the girl makes Joff’s look like a walk in the bloody park) she would still be best served not by running or fighting, but by staying put and learning to play the game. Which would involve the further development of subtlety, social charm, and other “feminine” qualities.

[Skeksi]

Personally, I really like the books and the TV series. Total fangirl. Me and the boyfriend both- we don't agree on everything (He likes Jon, I don't. I like Stannis, he doesn't. We agree that Varys is awesome), but I wouldn't say either of us has a reaction that's massively dependent on gender- both of like battle scenes, but prefer the political stuff more (Can't speak for him, but personally I find it more interesting, the blood/ gore etc. doesn't put me off). I don't object to the insults and general misogyny in parts of the series, as it is a big part of the setting. The way the world is set up, it would be unrealistic if it didn't exist. That's not to say that I wouldn't be insulted and pissed off if I was considered less competent by virtue of my gender in real life, or judged in general because of it, nor do I agree with such actions in the book, but there's a difference between not agreeing with how some characters act, and accepting that it is part of the setting in the book. I don't like the way Brienne is looked down upon despite her obvious prowess, that doesn't mean I like the books any less for having it in there. If that makes any sense?

In terms of how me being female affected my reading, I think the main effect was me being quite impressed at the variety of female characters through the books- there are some who want the freedom to fight, some who want to hold power in their own right, some who gain power behind the scenes by using the world they live in, and others who are quite happy in their traditional, more family- orientated rules. There are some who are kind and compassionate, some who are ruthless and manipulative, some who are capable, others who are not so, etc. It's nice to see that variety of female characters. Saying that, I appreciate the variety of characters in general. I appreciate that you see a lot of powerplay and politics, and get to see people rise up who are good at such things, as well as knights, and priests, and lords, rather than "The guy/girl who has the best sword/ most powerful magic/ crazy prophecy made about him/her saving the world with his/her secondary character sidekicks".

That's not to say that the books are somehow above criticism on matters of gender, of course not, and I think there are very interesting discussions on the topic on this forum, though not ones that I always agree with. Nor do I think this is the only series in fantasy to display a decent variety of female characters, though IMO it's certainly one of the best amongst the better known fantasy series.

[PatrickStormborn]

Passive is not one of the words I'd use to describe Sansa. She's patient and rational -- the opposite of Arya. She knows that she has no power to do anything at the moment, but when the opportunity arises I have no doubt that she'll act as strongly as she can.

I don't see why her femininity is always called out. Would she be a better feminist if she just emulated men and started practising with a sword? Arya and Sansa represent two different forms of feminism: a strong woman with feminine qualities, and a woman who pushes gender stereotypes. I don't think one is more "right" than the other; both are important. One thing I will say, however, is this: how can women and men be equal if feminine qualities are not considered socially desirable? Why is it "cool" for Arya to dress like a boy, whilst a male Arya who dresses like a girl would be unpopular?

[JonHo]

Passive is not one of the words I'd use to describe Sansa. She's patient and rational -- the opposite of Arya. She knows that she has no power to do anything at the moment, but when the opportunity arises I have no doubt that she'll act as strongly as she can.

I don't see why her femininity is always called out. Would she be a better feminist if she just emulated men and started practising with a sword? Arya and Sansa represent two different forms of feminism: a strong woman with feminine qualities, and a woman who pushes gender stereotypes. I don't think one is more "right" than the other; both are important. One thing I will say, however, is this: how can women and men be equal if feminine qualities are not considered socially desirable? Why is it "cool" for Arya to dress like a boy, whilst a male Arya who dresses like a girl would be unpopular?

That last part reminds me of a quote from the Cement Garden, by Ian McEwan:

Girls can wear jeans

And cut their hair short

Wear shirts and boots

Cause it's okay to be a boy

But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading

Cause you think being a girl is degrading

but yes I agree completely with everything you said. Why can't we have both?

[deleted01]

As Skeksi so beautifully put, the variety of characters in these books are a big thing for me too. I also don't understand why people dislike Sansa because of her femininity - if I'm honest, she annoyed me on the first read, because of her naivety. That said, I'm a girl who has had a rough life, and does not trust people easily. Sansa clearly has had a pretty nice life (up until she goes to KL, I mean), and has a good father and kind mother, both on whom she can depend, so why shouldn't she expect her future husband and mother-in-law to be the same? On my second read, I actually took the time to notice things from her perspective, and found that she wasn't as bad as I first perceived her to be. No, she's not like me, but she handles situations better than I would, due to my more fiery nature. I think it's in ASOS at Joffrey's wedding, where Lancel is out after being injured, and after Sansa compliments him both he and his father seem to light up, according to Tyrion. Her courtesy is her armour. But she has also learnt distrust where it is needed (and sometimes too much - the only times she infuriates me now is when she doesn't trust and open up to Tyrion, but I absolutely see why she doesn't). The way I see it is this: she has gone from a young, pampered, naive girl surrounded by family and friends who love her, and the secure walls of Winterfell, to a frightened, abused teenager in a strange place, with no friends and family, and no safety, no security, where she must do as she is told else face punishment. When I look at it like that, I think she's handled herself quite well. Like I said, if it had been me in her situation, I probably would have gotten myself whipped, or worse, for my inability to obey and sit meekly by while people attempt to rule my life and abuse me. Sansa, she's so kind and loving that people take pity on her, and eventually help her escape, and I think that if Joffrey wasn't the king, and such a bastard, more people might have stepped up to help her.

That last part reminds me of a quote from the Cement Garden, by Ian McEwan

:uhoh: Now that book creeped me out. Absolute shudder.

[Baitac]

Queen Cersei I:

"Of course, that is not to say people can’t dislike Sansa—find her boring, less than compelling, whatever. However, the disturbing thing is the strange castigation of her for possessing traditionally feminine qualities, especially in the environment she is in."

Why should you set the parameters as to what is OK about disliking about Sansa or not? I can dislike her for whatever reason I want. She is a literary character. This thread is not about Sansa as it is not about Cersei's walk of shame. Can we get back on track? As a woman, I get very upset about acts of violence against women. However, I really love this series and can read the books without being personally offended.

[brashcandy]

:lol:

[LifeRuiner]

While reading, I was bothered by the amount of sexual violence towards women - not so much by the dubious consent but by the outright rape. As ASOIAF is an excellent story, it didn't make me to put the books away but I cringed.

Is there sexual violence towards men in the books? I can't remember any except for Theon being a third wheel in Ramsay and Jeyne's wedding night.

[brashcandy]

While reading, I was bothered by the amount of sexual violence towards women - not so much by the dubious consent but by the outright rape. As ASOIAF is an excellent story, it didn't make me to put the books away but I cringed.

Is there sexual violence towards men in the books? I can't remember any except for Theon being a third wheel in Ramsay and Jeyne's wedding night.

Victarion's maester? And I'd argue that everything Ramsay did to Theon pretty much falls under sexual violence.

[Sasha Steelsong]

While reading, I was bothered by the amount of sexual violence towards women - not so much by the dubious consent but by the outright rape. As ASOIAF is an excellent story, it didn't make me to put the books away but I cringed.

Is there sexual violence towards men in the books? I can't remember any except for Theon being a third wheel in Ramsay and Jeyne's wedding night.

Victarion lets his men rape the Maester on the ship but other than that (and Theon obviously) I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[FanTasy]

While reading, I was bothered by the amount of sexual violence towards women - not so much by the dubious consent but by the outright rape. As ASOIAF is an excellent story, it didn't make me to put the books away but I cringed.

Is there sexual violence towards men in the books? I can't remember any except for Theon being a third wheel in Ramsay and Jeyne's wedding night.

There is talk of rape and 'buggering' men, there is that gelded man in the crow cage. Don't know if what happened to Satin was his own free will.

ETA What happened to Varys. The Unsullied. The boys Littlefinger provided to that creep (forget his name).

[kissdbyfire]

And the Damphair and Euron, right? I mean, it's only kinda hinted at as far as I remember, but it's there.

[LifeRuiner]

There is talk of rape and 'buggering' men, there is that gelded man in the crow cage. Don't know if what happened to Satin was his own free will.

ETA What happened to Varys. The Unsullied. The boys Littlefinger provided to that creep (forget his name).

How could I forget the eunuchs! I also have my doubts about Satin, I'm not sure it is even confirmed that he's gay.

Thanks, everyone! Maybe it's me but it seems like the later books have become more adult.

[ChromeWeasel]

While reading, I was bothered by the amount of sexual violence towards women - not so much by the dubious consent but by the outright rape. As ASOIAF is an excellent story, it didn't make me to put the books away but I cringed.

Is there sexual violence towards men in the books? I can't remember any except for Theon being a third wheel in Ramsay and Jeyne's wedding night.

Cersei's sexual abuse of Lancel is notable. So is her abuse of Jamie to a lesser extent.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Cersei's sexual abuse of Lancel is notable. So is her abuse of Jamie to a lesser extent.

Huh? I guess Cersei and Lancel would count if we're talking modern day statutory rape, which I don't think is fair (and I feel like Lancel was 16+, right?). But how on earth can you construe her relationship with Jaime as her abusing him? Were you maybe thinking of Cersei's abuse of baby Tyrion- the penis twisting incident?

[khanc]

I never got the impression the books were aimed at men at all - quite the opposite, really, given the wide range of female characters.

The horrific treatment of women never bothered me because it was always made so clear that, objectively, the female characters are no different to the male ones. I always thought the irony of this - that so many characters, even female ones themselves, had so many ridiculous, preconceived ideas about women that were very clearly untrue from the behaviour of women we were seeing all around them - really emphasised how stupid and wrong the treatment was to begin with. I was just reading a part from ACOK when one of the council members remarks on Cersei being some 'soft, frail' woman and Tyrion makes some sarcastic remark about it.

I love that there isn't just one token 'strong and independent' female character. There are as many different types of women as there are men, and that's really quite rare to see in any series.