How do female readers view these books?

[Bastard Walder]

Please tell where I've been offensive, I just said thet they suffered different types of torture (sorry if I got confused with the name), in other post you said that Osney was tortured and Cersei was humilliated, so I thought you meant Cersei had a better treatment than Osney, but IMO she didn't.

If I offended you by saying that IMO Osney was tortured by lying and not for having sex I'm sorry but that's how I see it, I wasn't saying that the High Septon wouldn't have punished him for just having sex, but the High Septon tells Cersei that he was tortures because he was lying.

Sorry if I offended you.

I was only referring to you referring to Osney as Osmund. I could have sworn I bolded the word Osmund, not sure what happened there.

[Fragile Bird]

One problem with this discussion is that women who do have a problem with reading thousands of pages about a, shall we say, pre-feminist fantasy world are unlikely to be found on Westeros.org.

I remember when the TV series came out, one of the people from the Extra Hot Great podcast saying basically, "Nope. Too much rape for me." after watching the first episode. Her point was that, I'm going to watch a world I find unpleasant. Which seems a reasonable point, although I find the world fascinating.

Feminist writer Sady Doyle wrote a pretty hardcore takedown of the series, for instance.

http://tigerbeatdown...rge-r-r-martin/

I'd say it's bullshit and a long exercise in arguing that portraying equals gleefully cheering on, but it has the advantage of being really funny, at least to me (a guy who loves A Song of Ice and Fire). But I also respect that she seems to have read a whole lot of book she hates to produce it. As a fan of Slacktivist's slow-motion Left Behind takedown, I like that. She's wrong, but she's worlds ahead of the Gina Belafontes of the world.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! That was a Hilarious read, and as one of the first commentators wrote, a pretty accurate description of ASOIAF! I would love to see a synopsis of ADWD!

To all and sundry, if you need a laugh, go to this link.

[Cold Pie]

One problem with this discussion is that women who do have a problem with reading thousands of pages about a, shall we say, pre-feminist fantasy world are unlikely to be found on Westeros.org.

I remember when the TV series came out, one of the people from the Extra Hot Great podcast saying basically, "Nope. Too much rape for me." after watching the first episode. Her point was that, I'm going to watch a world I find unpleasant. Which seems a reasonable point, although I find the world fascinating.

Feminist writer Sady Doyle wrote a pretty hardcore takedown of the series, for instance.

http://tigerbeatdown...rge-r-r-martin/

I'd say it's bullshit and a long exercise in arguing that portraying equals gleefully cheering on, but it has the advantage of being really funny, at least to me (a guy who loves A Song of Ice and Fire). But I also respect that she seems to have read a whole lot of book she hates to produce it. As a fan of Slacktivist's slow-motion Left Behind takedown, I like that. She's wrong, but she's worlds ahead of the Gina Belafontes of the world.

Skimread most of it and read the whole verdict. She do have valid, and humorous, points. But as you say I too believe that she's wrong.

Her whole justification for her argument collapses, when she says that it shouldn't be psycologicly realistic just because it's fantasy.

[ChromeWeasel]

Speaking as a woman who grew up in a very conservative country, I assure you that many of my female peers would opt for the whipping over Cersei's walk of shame-the physical wounds would heal but the mental scarring and the social stigma, the way in which people would consider you soiled goods-these things would never go away.

Speaking as someone who has lived through both experiences, I can tell you that taking the physical beating is a lot worse than you think it is, and the mental embarrassment is a lot less of an issue than you make of it. I SERIOUSLY doubt that anyone on this forum would rather be beaten like Osney than walked naked like Cersei. Anyone who thinks otherwise will probably think so right up until he/she has his lip split apart from the first strike. At that point I'm sure most people would realize what a ridiculous and foolish mistake they made thinking that a naked walk in any sense compares to having several people beat you bloody.

[Cold Pie]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! That was a Hilarious read, and as one of the first commentators wrote, a pretty accurate description of ASOIAF! I would love to see a synopsis of ADWD!

To all and sundry, if you need a laugh, go to this link.

I agree, it made me smile more than once!

[ChromeWeasel]

I would agree... if I hadn't read Dany's later chapters. Drogo continued to have sex with her despite how much pain she was in, and she was so depressed that she wanted to kill herself.

I'm not sure that Dany was depressed because of Drogo having painful sex with her. I remember it as being embarrassing and un-rewarding, which is why she 'worked on her technique' with her slave. I'll think about that on re-read though. I'm still in the camp that Drogo would wait for permission. He certainly treated her well, and was light-years ahead of the typical Dothraki as far as how he treated Dany. In the end they were in love after they worked things out, and that's stayed with Dany throughout the novels. She thinks of him regularly and wishes he was around, and seeks out other men that remind her of Drogo.

[Light a wight tonight]

No, she wasn't beaten for the confession, only tortured via sleep deprivation and constant questioning. As for women being treated far more gently in Westeros, I am truly speechless. Do you consider a walk of shame a walk in the park?

Yeah, that (sleep deprivation, etc) is def another form of torture, and a more sophisticated one than I'd expect for the millieu. Especially in light of the crudeness of Qyburns's techniques or the mere floggings handed out by the Faith.

I may get my head handed to me for saying this, but the Walk of Shame looks like a plea bargain to me. I'm sure the High Sparrow knows she put Kettleblack up to his false accusations against Margaery. Instigating perjury in front of an ecclesiastical court? They won't like you. Kettleblack got off too lightly if he could be a guard during the walk after his flogging. If that had been done right he wouldn't have been ambulatory for a week.

And I may be the only one in the universe to think so but the Walk was one of Cersei's strongest moments. Maybe because she'd been forcibly sober for so long, but you see her looking clearly at facets of reality she'd been denying and accepting them.

But....this topic is how female readers react to the books. My niece has been reading them (bought me Dragons) and liked the first three, not last two. I think she was upset about the last Jon scene.

[Fire_Kiss]

I'd much rather take the Walk of Shame then be scourged, yes. Not even a second thought.

I have to agree here.

She admitted to sex with the kettleblacks, and sex with Lancel. But she's accused of kingslaying, sex with Jamie, mothering bastards, sleeping around while she was married to the king, lying to get Margery sentenced to death, and killing the high septon. We all know she did those things.

There was nothing and nobody who could have kept the HS from torturing a confession out of her.

Personally, i'd rather walk naked and bald through the streets than go through physical torture. Cersie's biggest weapon and vice is her pride an station, and this was a fitting punishment.

[Ravenhair]

I went to the link, and I loved it. So funny. Still love the books, but thoroughly enjoyed Sady's commentary.

[Baitac]

Protesting!

[Baitac]

Speaking as someone who has lived through both experiences, I can tell you that taking the physical beating is a lot worse than you think it is, and the mental embarrassment is a lot less of an issue than you make of it. I SERIOUSLY doubt that anyone on this forum would rather be beaten like Osney than walked naked like Cersei. Anyone who thinks otherwise will probably think so right up until he/she has his lip split apart from the first strike. At that point I'm sure most people would realize what a ridiculous and foolish mistake they made thinking that a naked walk in any sense compares to having several people beat you bloody.

I'm so sorry this has happened to you. I hope you are safe now.

[Ravenhair]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! That was a Hilarious read, and as one of the first commentators wrote, a pretty accurate description of ASOIAF! I would love to see a synopsis of ADWD!

To all and sundry, if you need a laugh, go to this link.

Went to the link and loved it. So funny. Still love the books, but the commentary was hysterical.

[bgona]

I love the books, my husband don´t want read them (it is not true history to him).

At 14 (more or less), I had read In Cold Blood (that was really disturbing!) and also Women In Love. I can read almost all kind of books. I love books. And as you all have realize I love ASOI&F. And more cause I believe that here we have many strong main characters that are women.

I have a child, and I have certain age also. I believe more on equality in spite of genre, colour, physical or country.

[Baitac]

Regarding Cersei's punishment: I thought that this chapter was extremely well written by GRRM. At first, one feels, like Cersei, that she can get through this, that she can ignore the crowd, and that the process won't last too long. Then, as the walk progresses, the reader's sense of anxiety rises as Cersei continues her procession. By the end, as much as I dislike her character, I felt horrible for her, and saw how devastating her punishment had been. I am sure that there is a different level of empathy that is felt for Cersei if you are a woman.

Does anyone know if GRRM came up with this concept or if this was, in fact, a method of penance and/or punishment during medieval (more like Dark Ages) times?

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] OK, I am going to be the first to admit wrongdoing, but we should really spin off the Walk of Shame discussion to a new thread. Yeah, I also participated in the derailing, so consider me chided as well. :blush: Anyway, from this post on, any more of the side discussion will be deleted. Please let's stick with the OP, which is about how female readers react to the series. Thank you. [/mod]

[Queen Cersei I]

Edit.

Sorry, never post until you've read until the end of the thread!

[Xray the Enforcer]

*ahem*

*points to post above yours*

;)

[Xray the Enforcer]

I don't want to delete your work, because you were probably writing it while I posted, but let's roll this convo into another thread. Or drop it, if it doesn't merit a thread of its own.

[Caz]

The whole ASoIaF thing is brutal for both genders. I don't imagine that I (as a woman) cringed, winced, raged, got upset any more than a fella would. Though it may have been at different times and for different things, anyone with a shred of humanity will have at some point felt any one of the above. I've experienced all of them, not so much because it offended my sensibilities, rather the brutal nature of it all and the fact that it isn't all cut and dried and the guy may not get the girl (so to speak) and the world will be set to rights. I've loved every minute of it and would recommend it to most people I know, men and women alike.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I don't mean to be Captain Obvious (going back to the original question here), but these books are hardly the first time that women readers are being exposed to the ideas of rape, incest, forced marriages, being considered commodities, having unequal or no rights, etc. Most of us have read or heard about all of these concepts many times, some (tragically) have experienced some of the worse ones, and it is a rare woman who has made it to adulthood without experiencing firsthand sexual discrimination of some sort. So there is really no reason these books should be any more shocking, surprising or offensive to female readers.