Who wants to be king for the 'right' reasons?

[Lizaveta Martell]

I'm kind of surprised by all the Stannis love. He's a guy who

1. had his brother killed

2. thought about killing his nephew because a mad woman thought it would make a dragon?

3. follows a mad woman who has sort of convinced him that he's a mythical hero reborn

4. repressed the religion of the majority of his people

5. seems to have no understanding of what Gilly went through and no interest in understanding what a monster Craster was.

6. is just generally unpersonable and lacking in empathy. Without Davos around, he seems like a damn robot.

As for Renly, there isn't really a logic to him declaring, but I do agree that the whole thing was up for grabs and you can't really blame him for throwing his hat in. Whether Stannis or Renly is the rightful heir legally would depend on whether you could prove that Joffery, Tommen and Myrcella are illegitimate. Unless someone who has actual first hand knowledge confesses (Jaime?), it's moot which Baratheon brother has the better claim. Children born in marriage are rebuttably presumed to be the product of that union. Until someone rebuts that presumption, inheritance law would still give it to Joffery. Fancy letters aren't going to do it. And legal inheritance doesn't have much to do with correct motivations. It's just a matter of demanding something you think you deserve because of birth order or rank or sex. Morality doesn't come into it from a modern perspective (which I think is what the OP was asking).

I do think there was some logic to Renly's have-a-tournament-every-crossroads plan. While everyone else is throwing themselves at each other, you save your force and swoop in at the last minute. Not that I think Renly was actually thinking about this. Maybe it was Loras' idea.

For which is the most rightful king, Asha, Robb and Dany are my picks.

Asha wanted to lead the Ironmen out of their regressive mindset, which a noble cause.

Robb didn't really want to do any of the king stuff, he was fighting for his father and then declared by his bannermen who quite reasonably wanted to be left out of southern affairs. He seemed make well advised decisions, aside from his foray into too-noble-for-his-own-good marrying of Jeyne. He listened to people, listened to his mother, etc.

Dany, I think, is reconsidering the whole conquering Westeros idea, which in and of itself is good because she knows she has no real connection to it. She clearly takes her job as mother to the people seriously and has generally good intentions. She can be harsh and has made mistakes, but I don't think you can argue with locking up children-eating-dragons, freeing slaves and wanting lasting peace and stability for her people (even if it would be more satisfying for her to burn Yunkai to the ground).

[Daughter of Dragons]

Out of all the characters that have expressed an interest in becoming King, I think that Stannis would be best suited for the job at hand. He is a fairly honest and just man. He sees this as a weight that has been placed on his shoulders and not just a position of glory. He is seasoned in battle, strategy, and politics and I think that he would be the seven kingdoms best hope for survival in the long run.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Except Robert was picked to be king because he has some Targ blood and was thus adjudged to have the best claim.

That does not make him a "Targaryen" in the sense that Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, etc. were "Targaryens." He was still in open rebellion against the "senior" line.

[Winter's Knight]

That does not make him a "Targaryen" in the sense that Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, etc. were "Targaryens."

I meant that even after a rebellion, they picked the guy with some legitimate connection to the royal family.

[LifeRuiner]

I would like to see a new face on the throne, preferably someone who hasn't declared (and compromised) himself or herself yet.

And I will never understand how people can seriously claim Stannis as the best choice. Clearly, he is as flawed as the other pretenders.

[Noimporta]

Thats up for debate.

Tywins goals were defending and expanding the prestige and respect of House Lannister, defeating their enemies, and strengthening their power. [...]

I admit "all the wrong reasons" was probably not the right word. But what I meant is that, despite his mostly selfish reasons to seek power, he made his lands rich and prosperous and gave the realm several years of peace, progress and financial stability. So basically yes, I agree.

[Winter's Knight]

I would like to see a new face on the throne, preferably someone who hasn't declared (and compromised) himself or herself yet.

And I will never understand how people can seriously claim Stannis as the best choice. Clearly, he is as flawed as the other pretenders.

Has no respect for other people's religions-he lost my support right there.

[James Arryn]

It's not just that Stannis is flawed. It's that one of his specific flaws...the constant nursing of wrongs he feels have been done or to be done him is an extremely worrying sign for a realm recently exposed to a paranoid mad king and a Queen Regent similarly disposed to hold grudges ad infinitum.

I mean, I know it's not coming off that way, but I actually like Stannis at times. I think his best moments have been better than most others. But the fact that people overlook what to me seems to be an extremely loud warning bell...it baffles me.

[salt]

Stannis is extremely flawed, and I don't think he is heading for a happy ending. I still think he is a better candidate for king then most of the contenders. A few responses:

1. had his brother killed

His brother cast aside laws and oaths and raised steel against Stannis. Its unclear if Stannis knew that he was actively killing Renly and creating the shadow- but the fact remains that Robb, Ned, and many of the other rulers we know would have killed Renly in an instant if they were in the same position. The only difference is that had he been Ned's younger brother, Ned would have personally chopped off his head.

2. thought about killing his nephew because a mad woman thought it would make a dragon?

Troubling, luckily it never went beyond thinking. We'll never know if he actually would have done it, but he seemed very relived when Davos took that choice away from him.

If by some inasne reason Mel had actually been correct, one could certainly argue that the death of Edric would have been worth saving the lives of tens of millions of innocent people.

3. follows a mad woman who has sort of convinced him that he's a mythical hero reborn

The thing is, the mad woman is actually right- about the Others, anyway, if not Azor Ahai. Stannis is the only ruler- the ONLY ruler who actually knows and cares about the threat we have known since the prologue of GOT, a threat which makes everything else that has happened in these books seem frivolous. As detestable as Mel can be, she is responsible for someone actually preparing for the one war that will truly matter.

Also, to what extent is Stannis really "following" Mel? Pretty much every thing hes done have been following his own goals, they would have remained largely the same if Mel was out of the picture, he just would have been less successful.

4. repressed the religion of the majority of his people

Not true, theres nothing to suggest that made his bannermen convert, or that he treats the Kings Men any differently from the Queens men. We know that religion means very little to him, and he doesn't take most of the R'hllor mumbo jumbo seriously. He asked the wildlings that wanted to come through the Wall to make a gesture that they were giving up their old ways, and accepting the new King and new laws. There isnt anything to suggest that hes going to be coming after the wildings inquisiton-style to make sure they're praying to R'hllor and not worshipping trees. I don't think he gives a damn, he certainly hasn't asked any of the Northmen to convert as far as I recall.

5. seems to have no understanding of what Gilly went through and no interest in understanding what a monster Craster was.

6. is just generally unpersonable and lacking in empathy. Without Davos around, he seems like a damn robot.

There is certainly nothing warm about Stannis, and the way he looks at Gilly's child as an "abomination" with no reason to exist is troubling. However, we're looking for a King, not a social worker. With a great winter, an army of undead killing machines and ice demons, and an unstable teenager with three flying nuclear bombs all preparing to descend on Westeros, empathy may not be the most important trait to look for in a King right now.

As for Renly, there isn't really a logic to him declaring, but I do agree that the whole thing was up for grabs and you can't really blame him for throwing his hat in.

Oh, Renly was plotting for power loooonggg before things were "up for grabs". Remember how he was trying to invite Margery to court to get Robert to cheat on Cersei?

[Winter's Knight]

Not true, theres nothing to suggest that made his bannermen convert, or that he treats the Kings Men any differently from the Queens men. We know that religion means very little to him, and he doesn't take most of the R'hllor mumbo jumbo seriously. He asked the wildlings that wanted to come through the Wall to make a gesture that they were giving up their old ways, and accepting the new King and new laws. There isnt anything to suggest that hes going to be coming after the wildings inquisiton-style to make sure they're praying to R'hllor and not worshipping trees. I don't think he gives a damn, he certainly hasn't asked any of the Northmen to convert as far as I recall.

He burnt their Gods and he imprisoned the Septon and Lord who complained-that's a bloody strong message.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I meant that even after a rebellion, they picked the guy with some legitimate connection to the royal family.

For political pragmatism, not because anyone on Robert's side thought the Targs were the legal family anymore. Robert may have had a claim through a Targaryen grandmother, but the house he set up on the throne was Baratheon. This isn't a case of Harry the Heir taking the Arryn name when he takes over the Eyrie. No one thought of the conflict as Targ-on-Targ.

[LifeRuiner]

Has no respect for other people's religions-he lost my support right there.

By the way, we know for a fact that he even believes in Rh'llor or that he is Azor Ahai :rolleyes: reborn? I am not getting this impression and I'm halfway through AFfC on my re-read.

I mean, I know it's not coming off that way, but I actually like Stannis at times. I think his best moments have been better than most others. But the fact that people overlook what to me seems to be an extremely loud warning bell...it baffles me.

I really enjoy Stannis as a character (love all Baratheons and their bastards) and I occasionally root for him but the blanket approval of him on this board baffles me as well. Instead of praising him for what he deserves, I end up pointing out his flaws because so few people do. *shrug*

Oh, Renly was plotting for power loooonggg before things were "up for grabs". Remember how he was trying to invite Margery to court to get Robert to cheat on Cersei?

I think that "cheat" is the wrong word here. Margaery was never planned to be Robert's concubine but his new queen.

[salt]

He burnt their Gods and he imprisoned the Septon and Lord who complained-that's a bloody strong message.

There's a difference between following your liege lord, and following his gods- the burning on Dragonstone was symbolic of Stannis saying that his faction now followed the Lord of Light instead of the Seven, and that to follow him, his bannermen needed to accept this- but they didn't have to convert.

For example- I may be wrong here- but don't the Manderlys follow the Seven, being from the south? Thats fine with the Starks, but if they marched to Winterfell and said "Stop worshiping trees, you fools!", or otherwise opposed the Lord Paramount of the North following the Old Gods, then there would be trouble

Davos never pretended to believe in R'hllor, and he made him his Hand. Those who keep the Seven are called the King's Men, after all, and many of them are his closest advisers.

I think that "cheat" is the wrong word here. Margaery was never planned to be Robert's concubine but his new queen.

Good point, I forgot the details of what exactly Renly was planning there.

[The Frosted King]

Robb and Mance were chosen after proving themselves, so their in the running with a good head start.

Stannis sees it as a duty to the realm, so he's right there with them.

Renly was a fool to arm himself, and should've put his forces behind Stannis in support.

Renly bothers me, because his plan was so shortsighted at the root.

Sure, with the power of highgarden and Storms End he could take the south from the lannisters and rule for the rest of his life.

But it sets an ugly precedent of kingship based on the power you can bolster yourself with. When you have that power, covered with a frosting of right of primacy and birth, then you're in the clear.

But what happens if Robb Stark and Jeyne had two sons, the second of which they wed to the daughter of Robert Arryn, who was married to an eldest daughter of the Rock?

The north, Riverlands, Vale and Westerlands all behind the union of Rodrik and Joanna Stark.

And they decided to go for the southern throne?

If between the North and Riverlands they raised 50 thousand, and the Vale and West donated another 70 thousand, the South would likely fall into their hands, and without the right of birth to block their ascent, Renlys sons are doomed.

Renly was taking the framework of primacy and pissing on it, and the results would be ugly to the realm at large.

[Winter's Knight]

never planned to be Robert's concubine but his new queen.

Doesn't Robert cheat on Cersei all the time anyway?

I don't understand the Renly hate-he's got popular support, instead of rushing headfirst into battle, he takes his time, lets his enemies tire themselves out-say what you will, tourneys are cheaper than battles.

[Winter's Knight]

There's a difference between following your liege lord, and following his gods- the burning on Dragonstone was symbolic of Stannis saying that his faction now followed the Lord of Light instead of the Seven, and that to follow him, his bannermen needed to accept this- but they didn't have to convert.

For example- I may be wrong here- but don't the Manderlys follow the Seven, being from the south? Thats fine with the Starks, but if they marched to Winterfell and said "Stop worshiping trees, you fools!", or otherwise opposed the Lord Paramount of the North following the Old Gods, then there would be trouble

Davos never pretended to believe in R'hllor, and he made him his Hand. Those who keep the Seven are called the King's Men, after all, and many of them are his closest allies

Oh rubbish, Davos is afraid to talk about what Gods he worships in an inn:

"“An ill thing,” Allard declared, though at least he had the sense to keep his voice low. Dale muttered agreement.

“Silence,” said Davos. “Remember where you are.”"

"Septon Barre could only curse them, but Ser Hubard Rambton led his three sons to the sept to defend their gods. The Rambtons had slain four of the queen’s men before the others overwhelmed them. Afterward Guncer Sunglass, mildest and most pious of lords, told Stannis he could no longer support his claim. Now he shared a sweltering cell with the septon and Ser Hubard’s two surviving sons. The other lords had not been slow to take the lesson."

"“His god, ser friend? Not yours? Where is the god of Ser Davos Seaworth, knight of the onion ship?”

Davos sipped his ale to give himself a moment. The inn is crowded, and you are not Salladhor Saan, he reminded himself. Be careful how you answer. “King Stannis is my god. He made me and blessed me with his trust.”"

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't understand the Renly hate-he's got popular support, instead of rushing headfirst into battle, he takes his time, lets his enemies tire themselves out-say what you will, tourneys are cheaper than battles.

I got the impression from Renly that he was interested in the outward, material trappings of being a king — dressing nice and wearing a crown and watching tourneys and BS'ing with his friends. I don't get the impression from his brief stint that he had any interest in the nitty gritty governing part. Doesn't Catelyn call them the Knights of Summer? They do fine in easy times but break when it gets difficult. King's Landing was starving because Renly's forces were keeping food from getting sent in from the Reach. He may not have plundered and pillaged but that doesn't mean blood isn't on his hands just the same.

[salt]

I don't understand the Renly hate-he's got popular support, instead of rushing headfirst into battle, he takes his time, lets his enemies tire themselves out-say what you will, tourneys are cheaper than battles.

If you read the books and got the impression that Renly was a good person, I think you missed something. He isn't Euron or Ser Gregor bad, but he is a piece of shit. He's also the only one of the contenders for the throne acting solely out of a selfish desire for power. Every other player at least has something backing them up- Dany has the restoration of her dynasty, Joffrey genuinely believed he was Robert's son, Robb was seeking righteous revenge for his father's murder and the safety of his sisters, Stannis is the rightful heir and knows the Others are coming, and even Balon freaking Greyjoy had the restoration of the Old Ways which his people lived under for thousands of years.

All Renly had was the the pure, unadulterated, naked ambition for power for the sake of power, and him succeeding because he happened to have the biggest army at that point in time would have set a disastrous precedent for Westeros. The idea of Renly Baratheon taking the threat of the Others seriously and sending his army to the Wall is beyond laughable. Not that he could have pulled Westeros together to fight the Others or Dany even if he wanted to, he was an untested and unproven 21 year old who had never won so much as a skirmish in his life. As Donal Noye said, bronze all the way.

Hell, he didn't even know that Cersei's kids were Jaime's. He genuinely believed he was going to murder his brother, nephews, and niece, and thought it was all quite entertaining.

[LifeRuiner]

I don't understand the Renly hate-he's got popular support, instead of rushing headfirst into battle, he takes his time, lets his enemies tire themselves out-say what you will, tourneys are cheaper than battles.

I understand if someone doesn't like Renly for objective reasons but when it comes with a side of "I don't like him because he should have not betrayed Stannis who, by the way, is the king by right", I stop reading. Also because, Tommen is still the king by right and not Stannis. Because it has not been officially proven that Cersei's children aren't Robert's. Hearsay and ponderous tomes don't really count.

[Lady Mila]

I'm with Team Stannis here. I agree with the OP that Robb wanted to be king for the right reasons, but not too sure about Renly. Yes people liked him, but to him it was all too much like fun and games. He was wallowing in the glory for glory's sake.

Stannis wants to be king because, as Robert's heir, the throne is his by right. And he thinks he can be a strict but just king. That is what keeps pushing him forward.

Now Dany has a similar sense of entitlement but hers is tainted with thirst for revenge. I am not saying I blame her, considering what was done to her family, but sometimes I wonder what she is willing to unleash upon the people of Westeros to have her throne back. I mean can you imagine what would have happened if Drogo's khalasar had actually crossed the narrow sea? Murder, pillaging, and rape all over the place. D: