Ser Leo Targaryen Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Well, then the throne is not Stannis either, but Tommen, rightfully. A Baratheon-Lannister dinasty has begun, and Tommen is the rightful king! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardMaster24 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 My theory is all of the kings and queens we have seen in this series have had at least one flawTo be a good king the people of the land must consider you a king while you also have the support of the high lordsNo character in the series has had that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melq Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Well, then the throne is not Stannis either, but Tommen, rightfully. A Baratheon-Lannister dinasty has begun, and Tommen is the rightful king!You mean Lannister-Lannister dinasty ;)Stannis is the rightful King and in my opinion the best king to face the future events of westeros, Tommen is ruling falsely in the name of the house of Baratheon, and Targaryens need to conquer back the Throne if they want to rule again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Daenerys and Robb both want/ed to rule for the right reasons: to help their people. If Stannis cared about the people of Westeros then he would have bent the knee to Renly, or he would have made an alliance with Robb Stark and let the North become independent.Wrong.The Targaryen dynasty is no longer on the throne. Remember the little rebellion? The Baratheons usurped the Targaryens. Just like the Lannisters have usurped the throne from Stannis.Both Stannis and any Targaryen claimant will have to take the throne by force if they want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Poem Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 /resigned/King Stannis. And, "of course" after his glorious and very hard reign, Crown Prince Renly with his beautiful Princess and more beautiful brother_in_law.Maybe it should happen, but Renly destroyed this plan refusing Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Beyond the Wall Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Stannis would be a just king, but he does not inspire his followers enough. Aside from that, I think he comes pretty close to wanting to be king for the 'right' reasons. He'd like a 'just' realm. Renly would have done what he thought was right for the people, but I think he lacked the toughness a king needs, and his vision was probably too short sighted. He would have been popular though, and with the right help, would have made a good king.The perfect combo would have been Renly as king and Stannis as hand...if only the 'rules and traditions of succession' hadn't gotten in the way of that alliance!Robb would have been a good King in the North. I don't think he would have made a good king of all Westeros, but the way he inspired his bannermen fits well with the Northern way of thinking. I also think he would have tried to be just. The problem is that he was so young and inexperienced...he didn't get years to make 'mistakes' before he became king....he had to make them after he became king, which led to his downfall. Asha Greyjoy would make a great Queen of the Iron Islands! She really thinks about what would benefit the people. Her was the only one at the Kingsmoot with a sensible thing to say! Dany and Jon, like Robb, are so young, and learning how to lead people. They are making mistakes, too...the kind of mistakes that everyone makes when young....hopefully they, unlike Robb, will survive them. Jon's heart is absolutely in the right place. He wants to be a good leader and do what is 'right'. He has found out, however, that doing what is 'right' isn't always such an easy choice...duty and honor aren't always compatible with what is 'right' or 'just'. That conflict has led to the situation we see at the end of ADWD....Dany doesn't know WHAT she wants. She wants to be liberator and conqueror at the same time. She wants to free slaves and capture a kingdom...can you be a warlord and a liberator at the same time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Kevan of Stone Hedge Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I agree with the OP that Robb and Renly are somewhat stand-out examples in this case. Neither of them had the idea to become king on their own, IIRC. That is worth something. Because you didn't specify the iron throne, I'll throw Asha Greyjoy in as she wanted to change the ironborn way of life, which she thought was antiquated, and make peace with the mainland. Most non-sociopaths will agree that this is a good thing, at least in the context we're discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardMaster24 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 The only reason why Robb isn't a good king is he is an Usurper just like Renly. They would of both been great kings though the line of succesion got in there way and therefore could never actually be a good king because there will always be people out there who would say they shouldn't be king. It's just there bad luck, if Renly was born before Stannis or Robb was born over 300 years ago they would have been great kings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ihab Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Stannis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I don't think whether they have good intentions is as important as whether they have a right. I can't count as a rightful king anyone who does not have a legal claim:The alliance during Robert's rebellion were rebelling because Aerys broke the feudal contract first. That in my view makes the war legal / justified and so Robert had a right to claim the throne by conquest. (Targaryen loyalists would obviously disagree).Renly compared his attempt to seize the throne to Roberts but I disagree. No crime had been commited against him by the king (whom he believed to be Joffrey) so his rebellion was unlawfu.Joffrey & Tommen both thought they were Roberts heirs but that doesn't make it true so they are still unlawful kings and the Queen Regent knows it. The Lannister maintaining their power by beating all their enemies doesn't make it lawful either.Robb also had a justification for rebellion & a broken feudal contract with Joffrey so there was no legal bar to him creating his own kingdom.. Before he was named king he refused to back Renly as he knew his claim was unlawful (and Robb didn't know Stannis was declaring).Stannis does have a lawful claim as Robert's heir. However I dislike him so will say a king is not above the law & Stannis skirts close to the crime of kinslaying in pursuit of his claim (the leaches probably had no effect but Stannis' intent was to cause the death of Renly & if he did not know of the shadowbabe he was expecting something bad to happen to Renly before the battle). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliskin Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Mance wanted to unite the free folk to face the danger of the Others.He got to every tribe and place and made himself worthy to be chosen and accepted as king.He somewhat was "elected".And why did he do that ? To save his people.He is the most worthy king.As for Westeros, I'd say Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuisDantas Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Why's that?He is a deluded and hypocritical fool who dares to claim that he has no choice about being a King, all the while killing his far more adequate brother.He lost all my respect, let alone my support, at the moment of Renly's death.ETA: oh, and I agree with the poster above about Asha Greyjoy as well.As for Stannis, all that talk about being "rightful heir" for Robert is not only unconvincing and of dubious legitimacy; it is also self-contradictory. As others pointed out, Robert was King because he had the armies and the political support to make him King, not because he had the right blood or the right laws saying that he was King. It is naive and unrealistic to expect laws of inheritance to be so influential.Renly's claim was FAR more honest, in all senses. Stannis is just an arrogant fool that seems to be making a point of letting go of his semblance of honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardMaster24 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Stannis only wants to become king because he believes he deserves it and because his brother was the king and his brother would never want him on the throne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuisDantas Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Stannis only wants to become king because he believes he deserves it and because his brother was the king and his brother would never want him on the throneOf course, every claimant will say that they deserve to be King. Most, definitely including Stannis, will take advantage of pretty much any pretext to support their claims.But I don't understand what you mean by the last part. Which brother would it be that would never want him on the throne, and why do you mention it? We know that Renly wouldn't want Stannis as King, but I don't think that consists of a reason for Stannis to want to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardMaster24 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 That was meant to be Robert. Renly just thought he would be a better king then stannis which he also hated (and is true)I think the only way how peace actually could have been made after the war had started would have been through a Tyrell - Baratheon(through Renly) - Stark alliance. Though that's not the right topic. I just don't think Stannis should be King because he was Robert's brother. A king should have to earn his spot, like Robert did with his rebellion. So if Stannis could claim the throne on his own, sure that would be okay, though he can't claim it with his only reasoning being that i was Robert's true heir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Miss Sunshine Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 For me, that would be Stannis. He was the only one riding up to the Wall to defend Westeros against a threat, while all the others were busy plotting against each other or minding their personal goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 He is a deluded and hypocritical fool who dares to claim that he has no choice about being a King, all the while killing his far more adequate brother.He lost all my respect, let alone my support, at the moment of Renly's death.As for Stannis, all that talk about being "rightful heir" for Robert is not only unconvincing and of dubious legitimacy; it is also self-contradictory. As others pointed out, Robert was King because he had the armies and the political support to make him King, not because he had the right blood or the right laws saying that he was King. It is naive and unrealistic to expect laws of inheritance to be so influential.Renly's claim was FAR more honest, in all senses. Stannis is just an arrogant fool that seems to be making a point of letting go of his semblance of honor.In what way is Stannis deluded? I think he's actually one of the more self-aware characters in the entire series. Also, I don't see how he's hypocritical in believing himself to be the rightful heir-- Robert overthrew the former dynasty and won, and as he is the next true Baratheon in line, the throne technically belongs to him based on the system of primogeniture they follow. What Renly did is somewhat more applicable to Robert's Rebellion, in that Renly attempted to take the throne out of order.While I kind of agree with you that the shadow-assassins are morally difficult to defend, what Renly did was, in my opinion, a complete and utter disaster for the kingdom. Renly didn't challenge Stannis because he thought Stannis would be a bad king, but because he "kind of just wanted" to be king himself-- he thought it was a good sport. I understand that a lot of people like Renly because he "has the love of the people," and for sure, he's a really affable guy, but some of the reasons "the people" love him are precisely what makes him self a disaster-- for instance, holding a jousting tourney in the eve of war. If he really understood statecraft and wanted what was best for the kingdom, he would have united his Highgarden (i.e. food provisions) alliances with Stannis, thereby cementing an adequate force against Cersei/ Joffrey, who were neither the rightful heirs, nor competent rulers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Eddie Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I think it would come down to either Stannis or Mance.As many of you pointed out, Stannis is a righteous and just man, who believes in duty first and foremost. It's hard to judge his reasons, since unfortunately he has no POV, but he comes across as someone who is not after glory or fortune, and probably had never entertained the thought of being king until it was absolutely necessary. But then again, it's possible that is what GRRM wants us to see, and it turns out he has his own personal agenda.Mance is the closest thing to a democratically elected ruler in Westeros (I don't count the iron islands' moots, because I absolutely despise the ironmen). He is not an absolute ruler beyond the wall, and probably understands the concept of flexibility much better than Stannis, since there are many other "kings" up there, like the Magnar of Thenn. And "his" people chose to follow him, he never made them do it. He was a man of the NW and presumably started his new life up there as a pariah, so the man definitely has merit. I think Jon would make a good king, if he came to it, mainly because he has already proved his worth at the Wall and made some very tough choices (turning down Winterfell was incredibly selfless). And he doesn't want to be King, which I think would make him an even better one. But I sincerely hope that doesn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarions Secret Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Why be king when you can be the master of puppets, and make everyone dance the way you want? Besides, didn't Jamie say the Iron Throne was quite uncomfortable? Littlefinger is the only guy who knows how to do it ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaiyneStark Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I think of the living candidates that Stannis is the best choice. He believes in honor and to me has a fairly decent sense of justice for a medival society. However, Poor Stannis suffers from a lack of people skills and so he is perceived by both Westeros (and the reader) as a poor candidate for the throne until he has the chance to show his true worth in The North (to the this reader at least). A lot of folks want a more, at least outwardly, genial leader. Some one they can go have a beer with. But that type of leader lands the realm in debt up to their necks (Robert and probably Renly too). Stannis, however, is a stand up guy. You know what you're dealing with. If you steal there is a punishment, if you demonstrate valor there is a reward. I like this in a leader (and so does Davos).I think that Robb would have been an excellent King in the North had he had an opportunity to grow up a bit. I realize his foolish mistake in marrying Jeyne Westerling cost him dearly, but in many other areas he was doing OK for a young man. He was his father's son.One last thing. I think there are many similarities between Eddard Stark and Stannis Baratheon. Eddard and Stannis were both middle sons and it was only the death of Brandon Stark that allowed The Ned to emerge. Now with Robert dead, Stannis is emerging from his shadow and I vote for his arse to polish The Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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