Tywin- Overrated

[Storms End]

Overated? Compared to who, may I ask?

He dealt with all he could possibly deal with given his skill set, he was underhanded, ruthless, and cunning, everything you could possibly need to bring a dying house back to it's knees, then going on to become the hand of an utterly incompetent king, and still having the realm prosper is no little feat, it's constantly repeated how difficult it is to rule.

Was he a good military commander? He anticipated all the realistic moves you'd expect from someone new to battle, how was he supposed to know Robb would be allowed crossing of the twins, or that Jaime would chase scouts/outriders into a wooded area....

He had the riverlands stormed and riverrun under siege when conflict first broke out, he wasn't in the slightest bit incompetent regardless of the mistakes he fell into along the way.

I literally have no idea how anyone can say he's overrated when pretty much everyone in a highborn position has respect or even fear of him, because of how dangerous and powerful he is, on the battlefield, and on the politics.

[voodooqueen126]

The difference, however, was that Tywin sponsored and commanded all sorts of heinous acts for the advancement of House Lannister, while Joffrey's crimes were committed for spite, lust, pride, etc. It may not make Tywin any better, but violence was a tool in his hands. Joffrey treated his ability to command violence as a toy.

Except they didn't really end up advancing house Lannister. Tywin's actions brought disrepute on house Lannister.

Tywin's love of House Lannister was fuelled by pride, and because of this prideful fuel, Tywin's love for House Lannister ended up being very abstract.

I think the abstract nature of Tywin's love is personified in his miseducation of Cersei.

[Castel]

Except they didn't really end up advancing house Lannister. Tywin's actions brought disrepute on house Lannister.

Tywin's love of House Lannister was fuelled by pride, and because of this prideful fuel, Tywin's love for House Lannister ended up being very abstract.

I think the abstract nature of Tywin's love is personified in his miseducation of Cersei.

Yes, you do realize that most of the love people in the books have for whatever order they serve in the books is due to pride right, hell many could be said to love themselves and the fact that they belong to said organization more than the organisation itself? Tywin's actions put House Lannister in a better position, disrepute (debatable) notwithstanding. If any of his moves failed it was due to things that had nothing to do with his moves and things that were difficult to foresee.

And Cersei is to blame for Cersei. As a noble woman she probably didn't lack education, hell she's a moderately skilled schemer even, it's her rotten personality that's the problem and sometimes you just can't do anything about that, people are who they are. Technically she should be good but she drags herself down.

The red wedding wasn't genius. The red wedding was possible because lannister and frey were willing to plot a treachery so unthinkable that the North didn't consider it even from trash like the lannisters and the freys. I get lannister was afraid of Robb but violating a trust that has been honored for thousands of years doesn't make him a mastermind it makes him a cowardly piece of shit.

So attacking your opponent when they least expect it isn't genius? Someone needs to go tell Robb that his victories at Oxcross and Whispering Wood made him a cowardly piece of shit...

[Mulled Wino]

How is tywin to blame for cersei? Was he not the hand for the makority if her formative years while she was growing up in casterly rock?

[Hear Us Roar]

The red wedding wasn't genius. The red wedding was possible because lannister and frey were willing to plot a treachery so unthinkable that the North didn't consider it even from trash like the lannisters and the freys. I get lannister was afraid of Robb but violating a trust that has been honored for thousands of years doesn't make him a mastermind it makes him a cowardly piece of shit.

Some might call it thinking outside the box. It was an assassination plain and simple. Methods do not matter neither does honour as we see with Ned Stark

[David C. Hunter]

The red wedding wasn't genius. The red wedding was possible because lannister and frey were willing to plot a treachery so unthinkable that the North didn't consider it even from trash like the lannisters and the freys. I get lannister was afraid of Robb but violating a trust that has been honored for thousands of years doesn't make him a mastermind it makes him a cowardly piece of shit.

Agreed. To further the hypocrsiy, Im sure it were he other way around and Robb Stark plotted to kill Tywin Lannister at a wedding you know Tywin would've been the first to call Robb Stark dishonorable

[David C. Hunter]

Some might call it thinking outside the box. It was an assassination plain and simple. Methods do not matter neither does honour as we see with Ned Stark

True, but for some reason Tywin thinks he is a man of honor and principle. I rather he'd come out and say, "Hey look. It was quick and easy and I had to do it because there was a chance we might lose the war if this prolonged.'

[bloodymime]

So attacking your opponent when they least expect it isn't genius? Someone needs to go tell Robb that his victories at Oxcross and Whispering Wood made him a cowardly piece of shit...

An ambush is one thing, even Tywin's attempts to assassinate Robb in the field were understandable, that's war and he was afraid he couldn't defeat him in the field. He plotted treachery taking advantage of a code of conduct held so sacred the only other example they seem to have on the continent of violating guest right is the rat cook.

Tywin understood the implications of what he was doing even if some apparantly aren't able to, he was ashamed of it, did his best to distance his name from it and tried to rationlize it the best he could.

The fact that he did it out of weakness and fear doesn't change how cowardly it is. Being willing to sink to the lowest depths and being completely untrustworthy unless you hold all the advantage does not make you a genius or means you have a masterplan, it makes you a cowardly piece of shit.

I don't see it as a coincidence that tywin lannister's last days were filled with so many acts of betrayal. His first born son has his hand cut off by the sellswords tywin brought to the war. The Tyrells happily wallowed in the sewer with him and poison his grandson right in front of his eyes. His own son respected him so much he didn't even flinch when it came to murdering him. Tywin Lannister reaped what he sowed. No, bad people always don't get what's coming to them but that cliche does hold truth in it. Name matters, reputation matters and tywins lasting legacy will be the lannister name being laughed at from Dorne to the North as talk of Cersei's walk of shame spreads.

[Ragnorak]

Tywin didn't politely or deftly turn down the Jamie and Cersei marriage offers from Dorne. He offered Tyrion. He insulted and alienated a powerful noble house that was strongly inclined toward allegiance based on his wife's friendship for absolutely no gain or advantage. How hard is it to say "my wife just died, I am in no fit state to be planning marriages?" If he considered Dorne an enemy, there was no reason to tip them off. If he really wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar the smart move would have been betrothing Elia and Jamie to take out Cersei's potential competition. Hardly evidence for the clever and wise ruler he is reputed to be.

Tywin never ruled or commanded solo (except maybe the whole Castamere thing.) As Hand he had Aerys and his wife, later he had his brother Kevan. Tyrion describes Kevan as never having had a thought his father had not had first, but later we learn Kevan is actually a fairly good leader with plenty of his own thoughts. We hear from numerous sources that Tywin really ruled while Aerys was king but we don't know the truth of that one way or the other.

I wonder if Tywin was nothing more than Gregor with a noble look and courtly manners. There was a long look Tyrion couldn't read that Tywin gave Gregor after Gregor said to cut the eyes out of the next outrider who fails and give them to his replacement. My take on the Oberyn/Tyrion conversations is that Elia's rape and murder was an intentional message to Dorne for daring to marry Cersei's prince. Tywin's explanation to Tyrion is just plausible deniability. We see a similar thing with the Red Wedding. A monstrous act engineered by Tywin where Walder Frey (and possibly Roose Bolton) take the blame for the actual criminal act but people will still fear Tywin as a result. Too much of Tywin has been "off screen" to say for certain, but there is enough there to make you wonder.

[Castel]

True, but for some reason Tywin thinks he is a man of honor and principle. I rather he'd come out and say, "Hey look. It was quick and easy and I had to do it because there was a chance we might lose the war if this prolonged.'

I don't think Tywin gives a crap about honor or principle or love. The last he has explicitly said. What he did say was that the notion of it being more honorable to fight a long war and lose possibly thousands of men instead of ending your opponent quickly is ludicrous, which it is. If anything, he's a critic of honor in this case.

Tywin understood the implications of what he was doing even if some apparantly aren't able to, he was ashamed of it, did his best to distance his name from it and tried to rationlize it the best he could.

I think he was less ashamed of it and more concerned with other people not blaming him for it.

An ambush is one thing, even Tywin's attempts to assassinate Robb in the field were understandable, that's war and he was afraid he couldn't defeat him in the field. He plotted treachery taking advantage of a code of conduct held so sacred the only other example they seem to have on the continent of violating guest right is the rat cook.

Ah, you're arguing according to Westeros' moral code. You'll forgive me if I don't buy it. "That's war" indeed, his men are just as dead, Robb's men are just as dead. There is one simple reason for rules during wartime, no one can wage total war, eventually, peace must win out (most of the time) and no one wants their enemy being as brutal to them as possible. The guestright thing is a pragmatic concern about how one would get peace or keep peace. That's all it is, and Tywin got more out of breaking it that he did upholding it, that's that. I'm sorry but the idea that killing someone in war is somehow more honorable than killing them in a wedding is fine for most Westerosi, but I can't make that leap.

I'm sorry, he isn't here to play fair, and neither was Robb, it was about winning, Robb was just in a worse position. Why the hell should he go out and fight a "fair" war (a ridiculous concept on it's face) to please Robb?

My take on the Oberyn/Tyrion conversations is that Elia's rape and murder was an intentional message to Dorne for daring to marry Cersei's prince. Tywin's explanation to Tyrion is just plausible deniability.

Except that his explanation fits in with his character. Sending what message to Dorne? That he was an idiot? There's literally no message there at all, she was much more useful as a hostage. In the end I guess it depends on who you want to believe, the Red Viper obviously doesn't just want to go back with Gregor's head and has come to believe this. I personally am going with Tywin on this.

[Ragnorak]

Except that his explanation fits in with his character. Sending what message to Dorne? That he was an idiot? There's literally no message there at all, she was much more useful as a hostage. In the end I guess it depends on who you want to believe, the Red Viper obviously doesn't just want to go back with Gregor's head and has come to believe this. I personally am going with Tywin on this.

Tywin told them that Cersei was being saved for Rhaegar and yet Elia married Rhaegar. The Red Viper seems convinced that the rape and murder of Elia was a "Rains of Castamere" message from Tywin for stealing Cersei's place. Tywin's explanation to Tyrion about needing to prove loyalty and Robert not wanting to be seen as a child killer is accurate and was certainly part of Tywin's motivation. Tywin's claims that he didn't fully grasp what he had in Gregor and that he overlooked telling Gregor to spare Elia are the parts that are suspect. One would think Elia important enough for explicit instructions, but it might be true. And he does seem willing to risk the alliance with Dorne even while they hold Myrcella instead of turning over Gregor. It is enough to make you wonder.

I think he meant it just because the Tyrion marriage offer backstory serves no purpose other than Tywin character background/insight.

[Castel]

Tywin told them that Cersei was being saved for Rhaegar and yet Elia married Rhaegar. The Red Viper seems convinced that the rape and murder of Elia was a "Rains of Castamere" message from Tywin for stealing Cersei's place. Tywin's explanation to Tyrion about needing to prove loyalty and Robert not wanting to be seen as a child killer is accurate and was certainly part of Tywin's motivation. Tywin's claims that he didn't fully grasp what he had in Gregor and that he overlooked telling Gregor to spare Elia are the parts that are suspect. One would think Elia important enough for explicit instructions, but it might be true. And he does seem willing to risk the alliance with Dorne even while they hold Myrcella instead of turning over Gregor. It is enough to make you wonder.

I think he meant it just because the Tyrion marriage offer backstory serves no purpose other than Tywin character background/insight.

You do realise that at this time Tywin was more concerned about Jaime right? Aerys burned a man alive because his son said some bad words, what do you think he would have done to Jaime? I can see why he didn't say anything to Gregor. Women are usually spared during these raids, and he didn't yet know that Gregor was crazy. Rhaegar made the decision to choose Elia, Aerys made the decision to choose Jaime for the KG and they all got what was coming to them. As I said, it depends on who you would want to believe, and I don't think that Tywin would risk the wrath of Dorne for some petty revenge that isn't even Elia's fault.

I don't want to go into a meta argument about it being important because it would otherwise just be backstory. The same could be said about a lot of things, that's the way Martin writes.

[Ragnorak]

You do realise that at this time Tywin was more concerned about Jaime right? Aerys burned a man alive because his son said some bad words, what do you think he would have done to Jaime? I can see why he didn't say anything to Gregor. Women are usually spared during these raids, and he didn't yet know that Gregor was crazy. Rhaegar made the decision to choose Elia, Aerys made the decision to choose Jaime for the KG and they all got what was coming to them. As I said, it depends on who you would want to believe, and I don't think that Tywin would risk the wrath of Dorne for some petty revenge that isn't even Elia's fault.

I don't want to go into a meta argument about it being important because it would otherwise just be backstory. The same could be said about a lot of things, that's the way Martin writes.

You could be right. I think we'll get an answer eventually because we'll probably learn more about Tywin. All of the Rhaegar, False Spring Tournament, and Aerys recollections are opportunities to drop Tywin background info. I suspect that whatever Varys is planning dates back to when Tywin was hand. When Arya overhears Varys say "this is no longer a game for two players" I think Tywin is the other player he was referring to so I also anticipate more Tywin backstory as the Varys scheme unfolds.

I'm curious. What did you make of him bedding Shae? That was probably the event that made me start really rethinking Tywin.

[akajea]

Imaginary scenario. What if Tywin had killed Joffrey?

After Tywin hears of Ned's death he:

1. Goes straight to Kings Landing.

2. Kills Joffrey.

3. Sends Sansa, Ice and Ned's bones to Winterfell, hopefully appeasing Robb (Arya is an issue).

4. Secretly promises Tommen to Margaery, while the Tyrells turn their cloaks and destroy Renly.

Could this have worked?

[Castel]

I'm curious. What did you make of him bedding Shae? That was probably the event that made me start really rethinking Tywin.

Honestly I have no idea what to make of this. I guess it was some vindictive way of proving that she didn't really love Tyrion or something. Tywin seems to be two people, the cold, ruthless logical lord everyone knows, and the absolute arsehole, the latter only surfaces when he's dealing with Tyrion. It really makes it difficult to pin him down.

On the other hand it's possible that he simply found her attractive and she needed a new patron *shrugs*

How is tywin to blame for cersei? Was he not the hand for the makority if her formative years while she was growing up in casterly rock?

People are who they are unfortunately, their raising can have an effect but not as much as we wish. How many sociopaths came from a nice family without strife? Hell, a good parent may simply teach them to hide their flaws better, not change them. And Tywin is not the only influence in Cersei's life, there's an entire society and court there to influence her as well. Blaming parents for the actions of the child can be tricky because it's difficult to tell where nature ends and nurture begins,or for that matter, how much control the parent has over the nurture part of the equation. Take Renly for example, in today's society we consider homosexuality natural so do we blame his dad for it as was done in less knowledgeable societies?Is it possible that narcissism and sociopathy also have biological roots? A better example would be Sam, Lord Randyll did everything he could and yet he turned out the way that he did, is Lord Randyll a bad parent, or is it Sam's nature or did his mother undercut his methods? There are too many variables to tell.

[Monk Meth-]

Tywin is great because he was ruthless and he was smart enough to fight battles with parchment and swords. Tywin was getting beat on the battle field against robb.. dominated even... he adapted and won his war another way.. The red wedding was the works of Tywin Lannister. The Freys *spits* would never of have the balls to do that on their own.

[Machinist]

tywin isnt a superman win everything character, if you cross him he gets revenge, he won in the end and outlasted his enemies hense his reputation, hense the fear and he held that true until the end

[corbon]

Overated? Compared to who, may I ask?

His press. His own opinion of himself, and the opinions of most of Westeros. As you note below everyone highborn has respect or fear of him because of his reputation. Thta is the 'rating' that we are talking about being over-rated.

Was he a good military commander? He anticipated all the realistic moves you'd expect from someone new to battle, how was he supposed to know Robb would be allowed crossing of the twins, or that Jaime would chase scouts/outriders into a wooded area....

That is his job to know, or plan for. Heck, the Frey's are Riverlander's and the Riverlands were allied to the North. Robb ought to have been allowed to cross the Twins for nothing.

Instead Tywin was out-manouvered largely because he believed in his own press - himself as an experienced and skilled general vs a green boy. He expected Robb to be a fool, planned for Robb being a fool, was fooled into seeing Robb being a fool.

But that can happen to the best of them. Once. However what we see of Tywin here and everywhere else is that he he is over-confident and under-capable in every single (military) action we see from him.

The worst part of the battle against Roose wasn't that Robb was off beating Jaime, it was that Tywin completely failed to capitalise on the situation and totally screwed it. He let an army of entirely foot march through the night, attack briefly at dawn then retire in good order having been repulsed. He should have smashed that army, then harried and destroyed its fleeing remnants all the way to the Twins. That would have left Robb with no foot and cost the north 15k+ men as well as sent a resounding message to everyone, especially the North.

Worth noting too, that his actual battle plan failed in every way. Tyrion's wing didn't fold and Kevan was unable to flank the Northern right from the centre. Basically he decided the clansmen couldn't fight and was wrong. His arrogance caused him to underestimate a friend this time, not just an enemy.

He had the riverlands stormed and riverrun under siege when conflict first broke out, he wasn't in the slightest bit incompetent regardless of the mistakes he fell into along the way.

So your argument is that making mistakes is irrelevant to competence? :shocked:

He is supposed to be this shit-hot, feared veteran commander. He does fine when facing no opposition, but the moment anybody resists capably he dithers and does nothing.

I literally have no idea how anyone can say he's overrated when pretty much everyone in a highborn position has respect or even fear of him, because of how dangerous and powerful he is, on the battlefield, and on the politics.

That is exactly the point. He has this big reputation as a general, and everyone respects and fears him, but his actual performance as a general is appalling.

Therefore, he is over-rated, by definition - militarily at least.

I'll run down it for you again.

Actions Tywin has participated in or have been under his general authority.

Reynes and Castameres - nothing is known except the result. He may have performed amazing feats, we don't know. Equally likely, perhaps more probable, there was no actual fighting, just short seiges.

Duskendale - literally dithered for a 6 month seige until someone else resolved the situation.

Roberts Rebellion - didn't fight. Even taking KL at the end was by treachery, not fighting.

Greyjoy rebellion - Lannister fleet is smashed in or around Lannisport. Tywin probably not even present, but its his fleet, his resources, his home port.

Strategic vs Robb - completely outmanouvered by Robb initially, costs him the Riverlands. Thereafter he remains of the east of the Trident, sitting at Harrenhal hoping Robb will come after him, and waiting for another Lannister army to be recruited and trained in the Westlands. That failed too, as Robb drove into the West and smashed that army, leaving Tywin cut off from his economic and manpower powerbase in the west while it was being harried, while at the same time the Baratheons and Tyrells threatened his political powerbase at KL. He was then forced to try for the west, effectively abandoning KL to its fate. However Edmure stopped him on the Trident and he was forced to head back south to try and preserve the one powerbase he could save (though he was going to be too late for that).

Tactical in Wo5K - totally failed vs Bolton. 'Won' the battle, which satisfied him, but should have done much better and really the Northern foot withdrew, having achieved their aims, but were not truly 'beaten'. Beaten by Edmure at the Trident, despite more than double the men. Took heavy casualties and was forced to withdraw south. Took no effective partin the Battle of Blackwater.

Militarily he is a joke - but don't make one or you'll be made an example of.

Politically and administratively - those are other things entirely.

I don't see it as a coincidence that tywin lannister's last days were filled with so many acts of betrayal. His first born son has his hand cut off by the sellswords tywin brought to the war. The Tyrells happily wallowed in the sewer with him and poison his grandson right in front of his eyes. His own son respected him so much he didn't even flinch when it came to murdering him. Tywin Lannister reaped what he sowed. No, bad people always don't get what's coming to them but that cliche does hold truth in it. Name matters, reputation matters and tywins lasting legacy will be the lannister name being laughed at from Dorne to the North as talk of Cersei's walk of shame spreads.

This. Politically he was ruthless and appeared to be successful. However his methods were short-reaching and sowed the seeds of his and his house's demise.

tywin isnt a superman win everything character, if you cross him he gets revenge, he won in the end and outlasted his enemies hense his reputation, hense the fear and he held that true until the end

Except he didn't win, and didn't outlast his enemies. The Tyrells are currently the 'winners', and Stannis outlasted Tywin. And the North clearly remembers - Lannister/Tyrell supremacy clearly has a short life-expectancy there. The Boltons and Freys are dead, they just don't know it yet. The Lannisters are finished as a force - leaderless (unless the incompetent Cersei manages to regains some power, which will make things worse) and militarily shattered. They don't even have the name of power - Tommen is still a Baratheon, run by Tyrells.

[Castel]

His press. His own opinion of himself, and the opinions of most of Westeros. As you note below everyone highborn has respect or fear of him because of his reputation. Thta is the 'rating' that we are talking about being over-rated.

Tywin never blows his own horn. People do it for him. And his reputation is well earned. Look at the list of his enemies, now make a list of those that still have a house.

That is his job to know, or plan for. Heck, the Frey's are Riverlander's and the Riverlands were allied to the North. Robb ought to have been allowed to cross the Twins for nothing.

No, not at all. The first loyalty is to the king. Because of the way the system was set up by Aegon loyalty to one's immediate liege is important, but at the end of it the king still comes first. Frey was under no obligation to commit treason for Robb or the Tullys. None at all.

Worth noting too, that his actual battle plan failed in every way. Tyrion's wing didn't fold and Kevan was unable to flank the Northern right from the centre. Basically he decided the clansmen couldn't fight and was wrong. His arrogance caused him to underestimate a

friend

this time, not just an enemy.

Considering what had been seen of the clansmen at this point it was not unreasonable to assume that they would fold when forced to fight in formation, it's not their way. And the plan also failed because Roose was too cautious.

That is exactly the point. He has this big

reputation

as a general, and everyone respects and fears him, but his actual

performance

as a general is appalling.

Therefore, he is over-rated, by definition - militarily at least.

Uh, no. He only lost one battle hasn't he? At best he was diverted which tends to happen. And being a good general means maximising impact, which he did.

Duskendale - literally dithered for a 6 month seige until someone else resolved the situation.

Because the king was being held hostage. If someone had killed the king you would be holding that against him as well amirite? He took the safest path.

Reynes and Castameres - nothing is known except the result. He may have performed amazing feats, we don't know. Equally likely, perhaps more probable, there was no actual fighting, just short seiges.

If I recall they were losing to the Reynes before Tywin stepped in. And please provide a reason why it was more likely that it was only a short siege seeing as you yourself admit there's no evidence.

Roberts Rebellion - didn't fight. Even taking KL at the end was by treachery, not fighting.

And who's army was the least battered at the end. Like I said, maximising impact, minimizing losses.

Greyjoy rebellion - Lannister fleet is smashed in or around Lannisport. Tywin probably not even present, but its his fleet, his resources, his home port.

See, this is the mentality that cause the Tywin overrated attitude. The idea that either Tywin should have been omniscient or he is responsible for all the battles (while Robb on the other hand cannot be blamed for Edmure) or that he is somehow on an equal playing field with his enemies and should be able to check every move. Sometimes in war there is surprise and one enemy gains an advantage like that. Ask Robb he should know, since the Ironborn did the exact same thing to him, and worse.Tywin is not god, he cannot foresee every eventuality, nor can he be totally blamed for things that took place when he wasn't around.

Strategic vs Robb - completely outmanouvered by Robb initially, costs him the Riverlands. Thereafter he remains of the east of the Trident, sitting at Harrenhal hoping Robb will come after him, and waiting for another Lannister army to be recruited and trained in the Westlands. That failed too, as Robb drove into the West and smashed that army, leaving Tywin cut off from his economic and manpower powerbase in the west while it was being harried, while at the same time the Baratheons and Tyrells threatened his political powerbase at KL. He was then forced to try for the west, effectively abandoning KL to its fate. However Edmure stopped him on the Trident and he was forced to head back south to try and preserve the one powerbase he could save (though he was going to be too late for that).

How was he supposed to stop Robb, he was already long gone by the time Tywin had to deal with Roose, he couldn't have caught him. In fact the plan was sound, Robb just had a better one. Ser Steffon and Grey Wind are to blame for the loss at Oxcross, as we've said before. How exactly is he supposed to know that a magic direwolf would find a trail around the camp? For that matter, the riverlands were also Jaime's loss which also couldn't be avoided because Riverrun forced them to split up their forces. There was no avoiding it.

Tactical in Wo5K - totally failed vs Bolton. 'Won' the battle, which satisfied him, but should have done much better and really the Northern foot withdrew, having achieved their aims, but were not truly 'beaten'. Beaten by Edmure at the Trident, despite more than double the men. Took heavy casualties and was forced to withdraw south. Took no effective partin the Battle of Blackwater.

No doubt if I mention that he helped smash Stannis you would claim that it wasn't effective.

Militarily he is a joke - but don't make one or you'll be made an example of.

Yes, losing once and having your underlings do so because of disadvantages that were inevitable makes you a joke. Totally. Because life is like a game of chess right, you all have the same pieces if you fail to use them it's you're fault. No.

This. Politically he was ruthless and appeared to be successful. However his methods were short-reaching and sowed the seeds of his and his house's demise.

Uh, no. That was Varys. Tywin was going to be around long after the Red Wedding. The Tyrells nor their bannermen nor anyone else was whining at him. He had placed cronies in both the North and the Riverlands, all was well.

Except he didn't win, and didn't outlast his enemies. The Tyrells are currently the 'winners', and Stannis outlasted Tywin. And the North clearly remembers - Lannister/Tyrell supremacy clearly has a short life-expectancy there. The Boltons and Freys are dead, they just don't know it yet. The Lannisters are finished as a force - leaderless (unless the incompetent Cersei manages to regains some power, which will make things worse) and militarily shattered. They don't even have the name of power - Tommen is still a Baratheon, run by Tyrells.

Again with the omniscience thing... He definitely outlasted his enemies. The Tyrells were in a good position true, but the Lannisters held the Throne and the king. Even in the council, which had Tyrell men on it, Tywin had them well in hand and dancing to his tune. And the war in the Riverlands wouldn't last forever, eventually he would get his army back and things would be more equal. The North can remember what it pleases. The fact remains that the Boltons wed an impostor to Ramsay and now have a claim on Winterfell and no one is doing jack. Baking people into pies does not a revolution make. Keep in mind most of the strong lords were taken in the RW and the rest of their men slaughtered, the only house that came out of it unharmed is the house that needs Tywin.

And people keep telling me the Freys are dead, and have yet to provide any proof of it. A few Freys have died, it'll take more than that. They've claimed RR and are doing well for themselves and LF being Lord Paramount is to their benefit, since nobody has to take orders from them so there's less chance of a rebellion. The Freys came out ahead. Wanting them to lose won't make it so. And even if the North rebels, they'll have to fight the Boltons, by the time they're done they will be at the end of their power. And Tywin now has a fleet to sail down to White Harbor with.

And agaiiiiiiiin, I'm saying that Tywin wasn't an idiot, not that he was God. How the hell is he supposed to predict Varys getting him and his brother killed, or Cersei's manipulations? There was no defence against it. The only reason we're not having this discussion about anyone else in KL is because Varys saw more benefit in harming the Lannisters than the Tyrells. We don't blame Robb for things he can't control, why do we insist on doing the same for Tywin?

[corbon]

Mostly we are too far apart to even make a reply worthwhile.

But this.

And agaiiiiiiiin, I'm saying that Tywin wasn't an idiot, not that he was God. How the hell is he supposed to predict Varys getting him and his brother killed, or Cersei's manipulations? There was no defence against it. The only reason we're not having this discussion about anyone else in KL is because Varys saw more benefit in harming the Lannisters than the Tyrells. We don't blame Robb for things he can't control, why do we insist on doing the same for Tywin?

The point here is whether he was over-rated or not. He doesn't have to be an idiot. He is, more or less, considered God by those around him. The facts are though, his military performance was poor, strategically and tactically. That he won was due to the actions of others, frequently other not even under his command (LF, Balon, Bolton, Frey etc).

Therefore, since he was considered God, and militarily was at best, mediocre, militarily at east he is over-rated.

As an aside, he gets big props for his administrative skill.

Yet under his administration there was a tax rebellion!

We don't have enough details to argue this further though.