An Even-handed Dany Discussion

[Euphail]

I was just confused by the wording. To me it sounded like 'I agree that the sky is blue, but not to me,' a confusing statement. I was just giving Euphail an opportunity to clarify. Didn't mean to be condescending.

What I was saying is that yes, Dany may be more comparable to Rhaegar than to Viserys, though that doesn't mean that they are actually alike.

An apple is more like a bowling ball than a dump truck. Are the apple and the bowling ball really comparable?

My general point was that Dany is generally a horrible person, though hides behind the fact that she "means well"

[eyeheartsansa]

That is more of a hypothesis statement than a point though.

[butterbumps!]

The main problem is that she received her Dragons as a gift.

Yes, the dragons are a real point of contention for me as well. As another poster pointed out, the dragons themselves weren't gifts, but rather the eggs as a symbolic gesture of her heritage (from my interpretation). I think it took some degree of moxie to step into the pyre on faith alone (since she hadn't really known what would happen).

But I have to admit I dislike their presence in a visceral way. I'll concede that some of this might be due to my general mistrust of fire/ blood magic generally. The other part of my dislike does stem from that fact that it is Dany in particular who possesses all of them, who I feel ought not hold that kind of responsibility given her lack of erudition in the field of dragon use.

But the interesting point to me is that she actually doesn't really make much use of the dragons. Aside from "Dracarys" and her dragon taming scene at the end of Dance, she hasn't really taken full advantage of them. I don't particularly like the idea of razing a city, but as she doesn't do this, I'm not sure what it is that I don't like about them so much. Their presence gives her some tangible benefit, such as the Quartheen showering her with gifts, and recogition as powerful because she alone possesses them, but I think her flatterers mostly just wanted one for themselves. And to add, I don't see her holding onto all of those dragons either, some probably falling into the control of her potential enemies. I sort of wonder if they are going to cause a lot more trouble for her than continue as a kind of trump card...

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Yes, the dragons are a real point of contention for me as well. As another poster pointed out, the dragons themselves weren't gifts, but rather the eggs as a symbolic gesture of her heritage (from my interpretation). I think it took some degree of moxie to step into the pyre on faith alone (since she hadn't really known what would happen).

But I have to admit I dislike their presence in a visceral way. I'll concede that some of this might be due to my general mistrust of fire/ blood magic generally. The other part of my dislike does stem from that fact that it is Dany in particular who possesses all of them, who I feel ought not hold that kind of responsibility given her lack of erudition in the field of dragon use.

But the interesting point to me is that she actually doesn't really make much use of the dragons. Aside from "Dracarys" and her dragon taming scene at the end of Dance, she hasn't really taken full advantage of them. I don't particularly like the idea of razing a city, but as she doesn't do this, I'm not sure what it is that I don't like about them so much. Their presence gives her some tangible benefit, such as the Quartheen showering her with gifts, and recogition as powerful because she alone possesses them, but I think her flatterers mostly just wanted one for themselves. And to add, I don't see her holding onto all of those dragons either, some probably falling into the control of her potential enemies. I sort of wonder if they are going to cause a lot more trouble for her than continue as a kind of trump card...

Well no she doesn't "use" them per se. But they're the only reason anyone takes her seriously. Aegon, didn't have to "use" his dragon to conquer the North. As for Dany being given eggs and not dragons, I find it impossible to believe she had anything to do with them hatching.

[butterbumps!]

Well no she doesn't "use" them per se. But they're the only reason anyone takes her seriously. Aegon, didn't have to "use" his dragon to conquer the North. As for Dany being given eggs and not dragons, I find it impossible to believe she had anything to do with them hatching.

I agree on both points to an extent-- although Aegon was in control of his dragons, and had unleashed their fury in the South previously. So because he had used them to an effective extent, the threat was enough to quell a Northern resistance. Dany never does this though, with the exception of the unsullied scene, which I picture a lot differently than Aegon raining holy hell in the riverlands. I'm not arguing that I wanted her to use the dragons to this effect exactly, just that she never shows her enemies that she is in control of them, nor that she will use them to enforce her power.

Beyond giving her some amount of kudos for for having the courage (or was it a touch of the Mad) to walk into the flames, I tend to agree with that assessment. I wonder, though, how much of that is the fact that I (and maybe you as well), don't think that the input of walking unburnt out of a fire warrants the output of dragons, so to that end, I tend to agree that they're "undeserved."

I suspect I'd be more hopeful in terms of her growth if she learned to not depend on them, even for whatever inner strength they seem to bring her. I've been doing another re-read of the series, and I've been reminded of some of the things I initially liked about her-- for example, that despite bleeding sores from riding all day, she stays disciplined and focused. It seems small, but the discipline and will-to-survive early on gets lost, imho, when she gets the dragons. I'd say that to some degree that the dragons have contributed to making her somewhat lazy and complaisant.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I agree on both points to an extent-- although Aegon was in control of his dragons, and had unleashed their fury in the South previously. So because he had used them to an effective extent, the threat was enough to quell a Northern resistance. Dany never does this though, with the exception of the unsullied scene, which I picture a lot differently than Aegon raining holy hell in the riverlands. I'm not arguing that I wanted her to use the dragons to this effect exactly, just that she never shows her enemies that she is in control of them, nor that she will use them to enforce her power.

Beyond giving her some amount of kudos for for having the courage (or was it a touch of the Mad) to walk into the flames, I tend to agree with that assessment. I wonder, though, how much of that is the fact that I (and maybe you as well), don't think that the input of walking unburnt out of a fire warrants the output of dragons, so to that end, I tend to agree that they're "undeserved."

I suspect I'd be more hopeful in terms of her growth if she learned to not depend on them, even for whatever inner strength they seem to bring her. I've been doing another re-read of the series, and I've been reminded of some of the things I initially liked about her-- for example, that despite bleeding sores from riding all day, she stays disciplined and focused. It seems small, but the discipline and will-to-survive early on gets lost, imho, when she gets the dragons. I'd say that to some degree that the dragons have contributed to making her somewhat lazy and complaisant.

well its more like, either magic is really easy to wield in which case her hatching the dragons isn't impressive or it should take a lot of time and research to understand in which case how does Dany know how to sue it.

[Ghost714]

If by boss, you mean prancing jackanape who loses a war to two idiots, an old man and Hoster, I can't control my bannermen, Tully, then yeah, a boss.

This is the most ridiculous post that I have seen, for a very long time, and I don't know if the poster is just trying to be a troll, or what.

This person is trying to discredit Rhaegar, because Rhaegar lost the war to two idiots(Robert and Eddard), an old man(Jon Arryn), and Hoster Tully.

Apparently this person thinks that the Robert and Ned that we see in AGoT, are idiots, and that somehow means that they were idiots during the rebellion. First off, Robert in AGoT, is nothing like he was during the rebellion, yes Robert later became a drunken oaf, but that does not mean that he wasn't an amazing war general and leader, before he became King. Robert was known for turning his enemies into loyal subjects, and was famous for his battle tactics. You can be a bad King, and an idiot at the Game of Thrones, while still being a great battle leader. 

Same goes for Ned, just because he was honorable to a fault, doesn't mean he wasn't awesome during the War. 

Just because someone isn't like Littlefinger, or Varys, that doesn't mean they are idiots. Ned never pretended to be good at the Game of Thrones, but he felt duty bound to accept Roberts offer anyway(to become Hand). 

And somehow because Jon Arryn was old, that means he wasnt a credible opponent? Seriously?  

Jon Arryn was born in 225AL, and died 297AL, so that means that he was 58 years old during Roberts Rebellion. Ser Barristan is over sixty years old, when we see him kicking ass and taking names. Ser Barristan escaped Kinglanding, having to fight off multiple Goldcloaks, without even using a sword. Then Ser Barristan is still fast enough to spot, and kill a manticore, before it stings Dany. Then we see Ser Barristan woop the shit out of Mero, the former Leader of the Second Sons, also known as the Titans Bastard, mind you Ser Barristan had a stick, and Mero a Sword. Ser Barristan was also one of the people that went into the sewers of Meereen, which allowed them to free the slaves, and take Mereen. Then we see Ser Barristan school one of the most renowned pit fighters in Meereen. All of this, Ser Barristan does, while being over the age of sixty. 

Another bad ass person that's the age of sixty, or near enough to make no matter, is Ser Brynden Tully, the Blackfish(The Blackfish is five years younger than his brother Hoster, and Hoster was Born 235AL). The Blackfish is part of the reason Robb was so successful, in all of his battles. Not to even mention the Blackfish's escape of Riverrun, while they were under siege....

So obviously Jon Arryn's age during the Rebellion does not prove that he wasn't a worthy opponent for Rhaegar, just because he was an "old man".

Because you can only be a good battle Commander, if your young right? No.

And for all we know, Jon Arryn, despite being an older man, was not horrible at playing The Game of Thrones. Jon Arryn was Hand of the King for fourteen years, and he and Stannis were on to Cersei children being Jaime's, and it wasn't the "Game" that killed Jon Arryn, it was his wife, because Jon planned to have Robert Arryn fostered on Dragonstone with , and Lysa didn't want "her baby taken from her again", so she poisoned Jon Arryn with TheTears of Lys.

Then we have Hoster Tully, who apparently isn't a worthy adversary, because he can't control Walder Frey. Walder Frey has a lot more leverage than most Bannermen, when it comes to following the orders of their Liege Lord. Walder Frey controls the Crossing, and he has two Castles that defend the backs of each other.  Then both of those Castles are surrounded by moats, and they have archer towers to shoot anybody that try's to attack. Not to mention that, Walder Frey has about a third of the amount of troops that Hoster Tully has, so it would be insane to attack Walder Frey, just because Walder Frey did not show up to fight at the Trident, until the Battle was over.  

Another thing that I would like to point out, and that's the fact that Hoster Tully did attack three Houses sworn to Riverrun, when those three Houses decided to stay loyal to the Targaryen's(Houses Mooton, Goodbrook, and Darry). Now staying loyal to the  Targaryen's, that's an actual reason to attack a Bannerman, unlike coming to a battle late, which is what Walder Frey did, hence the name "The late Lord Frey". However not only did Hoster Tully attack those three Houses, but he actually put entire villages to the Sword, that were sworn to House Goodbrook.

Now does this honestly sound like a man who doesn't keep his Bannermen in line, when it is possible? 

So just because Rhaegar was beaten by Robert, Ned, Jon Arryn, and Hoster Tully, that does not mean Rhaegar wasn't a bad ass, or good at being a leader. It just means that Robert, Ned, Jon, and Hoster were also bad ass/good leaders, and Rhaegar was out numbered. Four out of the seven Great Houses were fighting with Robert(Stark, Baratheon, Arryn and Tully), and Rhaegar basically only had the help of two of the Great Houses, the Tyrell's of Highgarden, and some help from the Martell's of Dorne . The Lannisters didn't do anything until after the battle of the Trident, and then they were fighting on Roberts side.

So just because Rhaegar was beaten by Robert, Ned, Jon Arryn, and Hoster Tully, that does not mean that Rhaegar wasn't a "boss".

[eyeheartsansa]

Yes, the dragons are a real point of contention for me as well. As another poster pointed out, the dragons themselves weren't gifts, but rather the eggs as a symbolic gesture of her heritage (from my interpretation). I think it took some degree of moxie to step into the pyre on faith alone (since she hadn't really known what would happen).

The one holding the most cards is Illyrio. Dany is yet to come to terms with the fact that she is largely indebted to him - she'd be nowhere if it weren't for him. He also has Aegon up his sleeve and seems to be supporting him at the moment. I'm sure he didn't anticipate the dragons hatching, so I imagine he is biding his time to see how things play out. But he is a really, super rich guy and has a great deal of sway in major events thusfar, so we need to keep an eye on him.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

This is the most ridiculous post that I have seen, for a very long time, and I don't know if the poster is just trying to be a troll, or what.

This person is trying to discredit Rhaegar, because Rhaegar lost the war to two idiots(Robert and Eddard), an old man(Jon Arryn), and Hoster Tully.

Apparently this person thinks that the Robert and Ned that we see in AGoT, are idiots, and that somehow means that they were idiots during the rebellion. First off, Robert in AGoT, is nothing like he was during the rebellion, yes Robert later became a drunken oaf, but that does not mean that he wasn't an amazing war general and leader, before he became King. Robert was known for turning his enemies into loyal subjects, and was famous for his battle tactics. You can be a bad King, and an idiot at the Game of Thrones, while still being a great battle leader.

Same goes for Ned, just because he was honorable to a fault, doesn't mean he wasn't awesome during the War.

Just because someone isn't like Littlefinger, or Varys, that doesn't mean they are idiots. Ned never pretended to be good at the Game of Thrones, but he felt duty bound to accept Roberts offer anyway(to become Hand).

And somehow because Jon Arryn was old, that means he wasnt a credible opponent? Seriously?

Jon Arryn was born in 225AL, and died 297AL, so that means that he was 58 years old during Roberts Rebellion. Ser Barristan is over sixty years old, when we see him kicking ass and taking names. Ser Barristan escaped Kinglanding, having to fight off multiple Goldcloaks, without even using a sword. Then Ser Barristan is still fast enough to spot, and kill a manticore, before it stings Dany. Then we see Ser Barristan woop the shit out of Mero, the former Leader of the Second Sons, also known as the Titans Bastard, mind you Ser Barristan had a stick, and Mero a Sword. Ser Barristan was also one of the people that went into the sewers of Meereen, which allowed them to free the slaves, and take Mereen. Then we see Ser Barristan school one of the most renowned pit fighters in Meereen. All of this, Ser Barristan does, while being over the age of sixty.

Another bad ass person that's the age of sixty, or near enough to make no matter, is Ser Brynden Tully, the Blackfish(The Blackfish is five years younger than his brother Hoster, and Hoster was Born 235AL). The Blackfish is part of the reason Robb was so successful, in all of his battles. Not to even mention the Blackfish's escape of Riverrun, while they were under siege....

So obviously Jon Arryn's age during the Rebellion does not prove that he wasn't a worthy opponent for Rhaegar, just because he was an "old man".

Because you can only be a good battle Commander, if your young right? No.

And for all we know, Jon Arryn, despite being an older man, was not horrible at playing The Game of Thrones. Jon Arryn was Hand of the King for fourteen years, and he and Stannis were on to Cersei children being Jaime's, and it wasn't the "Game" that killed Jon Arryn, it was his wife, because Jon planned to have Robert Arryn fostered on Dragonstone with , and Lysa didn't want "her baby taken from her again", so she poisoned Jon Arryn with TheTears of Lys.

Then we have Hoster Tully, who apparently isn't a worthy adversary, because he can't control Walder Frey. Walder Frey has a lot more leverage than most Bannermen, when it comes to following the orders of their Liege Lord. Walder Frey controls the Crossing, and he has two Castles that defend the backs of each other. Then both of those Castles are surrounded by moats, and they have archer towers to shoot anybody that try's to attack. Not to mention that, Walder Frey has about a third of the amount of troops that Hoster Tully has, so it would be insane to attack Walder Frey, just because Walder Frey did not show up to fight at the Trident, until the Battle was over.

Another thing that I would like to point out, and that's the fact that Hoster Tully did attack three Houses sworn to Riverrun, when those three Houses decided to stay loyal to the Targaryen's(Houses Mooton, Goodbrook, and Darry). Now staying loyal to the Targaryen's, that's an actual reason to attack a Bannerman, unlike coming to a battle late, which is what Walder Frey did, hence the name "The late Lord Frey". However not only did Hoster Tully attack those three Houses, but he actually put entire villages to the Sword, that were sworn to House Goodbrook.

Now does this honestly sound like a man who doesn't keep his Bannermen in line, when it is possible?

So just because Rhaegar was beaten by Robert, Ned, Jon Arryn, and Hoster Tully, that does not mean Rhaegar wasn't a bad ass, or good at being a leader. It just means that Robert, Ned, Jon, and Hoster were also bad ass/good leaders, and Rhaegar was out numbered. Four out of the seven Great Houses were fighting with Robert(Stark, Baratheon, Arryn and Tully), and Rhaegar basically only had the help of two of the Great Houses, the Tyrell's of Highgarden, and some help from the Martell's of Dorne . The Lannisters didn't do anything until after the battle of the Trident, and then they were fighting on Roberts side.

So just because Rhaegar was beaten by Robert, Ned, Jon Arryn, and Hoster Tully, that does not mean that Rhaegar wasn't a "boss".

But I don't have any respect for Ned, Robert Jon Arryn or Hoster Tully. There were many Tully banner men fighting with Rhaegar. The Dary's come to mind, but there are others. The problem with Tully isn't that he couldn't control Frey at the battle, the question, is why the fuck is he still alive 17 years later to be a pain Robb's ass. Robert and Ned may well be good generals, but from everything I've seen in the books they're idiots and the rebellion only succeeded because the King was insane and Hoster Tully had already built a Stark-Tully-Arryn~Lannister alliance. Until some actual evidence of their military competence is presented in the books, I'm going to continue to assume they were always idiots as they were in aGoT.

[jarl the climber]

But I don't have any respect for Ned, Robert Jon Arryn or Hoster Tully. There were many Tully banner men fighting with Rhaegar. The Dary's come to mind, but there are others. The problem with Tully isn't that he couldn't control Frey at the battle, the question, is why the fuck is he still alive 17 years later to be a pain Robb's ass. Robert and Ned may well be good generals, but from everything I've seen in the books they're idiots and the rebellion only succeeded because the King was insane and Hoster Tully had already built a Stark-Tully-Arryn~Lannister alliance. Until some actual evidence of their military competence is presented in the books, I'm going to continue to assume they were always idiots as they were in aGoT.

Maidenpool, Cracklaw Point, and Darry sided with the Targs, the Freys were kind of nuetral, Seagaurd and the Western parts of the Riverlands went with Hoster, so it was kind of an East and West thing. There might be an element of self preservation involved in this, one Darry was Dany and Viserys protector and I thought there was one in the Kingsguard at this time so there were probaly many factors involved in why these Lords supported the Rebels or the throne many of them had nothing to do with Hoster Tullys competence. We actually know little about Hoster, he did dis LF and kill his unborn child which did end up becoming important.

[eyeheartsansa]

Until some actual evidence of their military competence is presented in the books, I'm going to continue to assume they were always idiots as they were in aGoT.

I'm not sure what evidence you're looking for.

Barristan thought to himself, as he polished his armor "Man, Robert and Ned, those guys were awesome. I enjoy reminiscing about their military competence. It's too bad they're dead now, but they were sure awesome back then. It was truly an honor fighting with them."

Their general reputation, since they won the war and also crushed the Iron rebellion; the reader is presented with enough trustworthy info to go on; they were no idiots.

I never understood all this obsessing over the backstory. It's just backstory - you can question it if you want, for fun, but to me there isn't much point. The good stuff is the people who are still alive.

[butterbumps!]

I never understood all this obsessing over the backstory. It's just backstory - you can question it if you want, for fun, but to me there isn't much point. The good stuff is the people who are still alive.

I think some of it is apropos to the current events, but I really don't trust too much of what we see in flashbacks-- I think they might be somewhat unreliable. Personally, I don't hold much stock in Barristan's character judgments. I don't doubt that he's an honorable man, and an excellent kingsguard, but he's spent so much time disciplining himself to not judge those he's meant to protect, I don't think we can trust some of his character assessments.

But I'm surprised by some of the Rhaegar thoughts. I kind of feel like we don't have a lot of info about him, but going only with the second-hand reminisces, he hadn't struck me as being particularly appealing. I could swing either way on this: the only one who doesn't remember him fondly is Robert, and I wonder if that has a lot to do with rose coloured glasses nostalgia about the pre-5 King War, or if he actually was as good as they say. I'm reserving judgment for now I suppose.....

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I'm not sure what evidence you're looking for.

Barristan thought to himself, as he polished his armor "Man, Robert and Ned, those guys were awesome. I enjoy reminiscing about their military competence. It's too bad they're dead now, but they were sure awesome back then. It was truly an honor fighting with them."

Their general reputation, since they won the war and also crushed the Iron rebellion; the reader is presented with enough trustworthy info to go on; they were no idiots.

I never understood all this obsessing over the backstory. It's just backstory - you can question it if you want, for fun, but to me there isn't much point. The good stuff is the people who are still alive.

Yeah, a lot of that basically. I would need to know the tactics they used and how they won their battles. We need to get same information about them that we have about the Blackfish. There's basically no evidence of them not being idiots. But the information should definitely not come from Barristan, i'm not very impressed with him either.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I never understood all this obsessing over the backstory. It's just backstory - you can question it if you want, for fun, but to me there isn't much point. The good stuff is the people who are still alive.

On the contrary, I fully believe that in order to understand the present and future, you have to understand the past. You can't hope to have a full understanding or appreciation for what's going on now without understanding what happened before.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I'm not sure what evidence you're looking for.

Barristan thought to himself, as he polished his armor "Man, Robert and Ned, those guys were awesome. I enjoy reminiscing about their military competence. It's too bad they're dead now, but they were sure awesome back then. It was truly an honor fighting with them."

Their general reputation, since they won the war and also crushed the Iron rebellion; the reader is presented with enough trustworthy info to go on; they were no idiots.

I never understood all this obsessing over the backstory. It's just backstory - you can question it if you want, for fun, but to me there isn't much point. The good stuff is the people who are still alive.

You're missing the point of the whole series. How many times does Tyrion or Jamie say that they're all being controlled from beyond the grave by the plans of their fathers. The most important things in the story so far seemed to have happened between the Tourney at Harrenhal and the fall of the Tower of Joy.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You're missing the point of the whole series. How many times does Tyrion or Jamie say that they're all being controlled from beyond the grave by the plans of their fathers. The most important things in the story so far seemed to have happened between the Tourney at Harrenhal and the fall of the Tower of Joy.

Exactly. Who do they think is driving the actions of the people who are still alive, if not the actions of people who are dead? Whether it's the Dance of the Dragons or the Blackfyre Rebellion or the Harrenhal tourney or Robert's Rebellion or any of that, it all has implications for what's going on now. Writing it off as unimportant or trivial is to deny oneself a critical means of understanding the present action.

[eyeheartsansa]

No, I didn't mean to say the backstory was trivial.. just some of the obsessing over it. I'll use Robert as an example. Robert was known to be a brilliant fighter years ago; it's presented in such a way that this is easy to accept. It's one thing to question the motives of things that have happened in the current timeline.. but to say, 'no, Robert sucked, where is the evidence that he was so awesome??" Like you're trying to discover some huge plot twist that GRRM is misdirecting us and that maybe Robert WASN'T so awesome after all!!"

It just seems like barking up the wrong tree to me... of all the things in the series to nitpick over. But it's a free country! :lol:

That's what I mean by "it's just backstory." Of course I realize the importance of it.. i miscommunicated my point. It's just that . . .there are times when it's ok to take the author's word for it. You can question everything, but it will not always lead to an interesting discovery.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No, I didn't mean to say the backstory was trivial.. just some of the obsessing over it. I'll use Robert as an example. Robert was known to be a brilliant fighter years ago; it's presented in such a way that this is easy to accept. It's one thing to question the motives of things that have happened in the current timeline.. but to say, 'no, Robert sucked, where is the evidence that he was so awesome??" Like you're trying to discover some huge plot twist that GRRM is misdirecting us and that maybe Robert WASN'T so awesome after all!!"

It just seems like barking up the wrong tree to me... of all the things in the series to nitpick over. But it's a free country! :lol:

That's what I mean by "it's just backstory." Of course I realize the importance of it.. i miscommunicated my point. It's just that . . .there are times when it's ok to take the author's word for it. You can question everything, but it will not always lead to an interesting discovery.

Fair enough. I think splitting hairs over what someone means when they say that Dany does or doesn't "resemble" Rhaegar is pointless nitpicking, so to each his own.

[James Arryn]

Her intelligence/acumen is an interesting point. Because for her age she is extremely precocious, but within the ASOIAF context she's...ok. She doesn't really stand out one way or another. Where she makes leaps others do/could not, it's mostly on an instinctive/natural/supernatural way, like knowing how to realize dragons.

[Ghost714]

But I don't have any respect for Ned, Robert Jon Arryn or Hoster Tully. There were many Tully banner men fighting with Rhaegar. The Dary's come to mind, but there are others. The problem with Tully isn't that he couldn't control Frey at the battle, the question, is why the fuck is he still alive 17 years later to be a pain Robb's ass. Robert and Ned may well be good generals, but from everything I've seen in the books they're idiots and the rebellion only succeeded because the King was insane and Hoster Tully had already built a Stark-Tully-Arryn~Lannister alliance. Until some actual evidence of their military competence is presented in the books, I'm going to continue to assume they were always idiots as they were in aGoT.

You said there were other Tully Bannermen that fought for the Targaryen's, other than Darry. I actually listed the other two, and that's Houses Goodbrook, and Mooton. Hoster Tully also Didn't put up with that, he attacked them, and Hoster actually put entire Goodbrook villages to the sword, for not following their Leige Lord.

You then ask, "why the fuck is he still alive 17 years later to be a pain Robb's ass."

I actually answered that too, and it's 14, maybe 15 years later, not 17.

In my last post, I explained why it would be insane to attack the Freys, at the Twins. The Twins are highly defensible, and it would be very costly to take the Castle. Not to mention that the Freys are like the most powerful Bannermen of the Tullys. So I really do not consider Hoster Tully an idiot, for not killing Walder Frey, because it would cost thousands upon thousands of lives, for Hoster to take the Crossing. Not to mention, the only slight that Walder Frey ever did to Hoster, was show up late for the Battle of the Trident, any other disobedience from Walder Frey, was done after Hoster was to sick to do anything. I mean come on, let's be serious now, do you honestly think that is justification for Hoster to attack the Twins? Do you honestly think that it would be worth it? Especially when Walder Frey was like in his late 70's during the Rebellion. So I am sure that Hoster didn't consider it neccisary to attack the Freys, because number one, it would cost Hoster a huge chunk of his army. Number two it really wasnt that big of an offense, and number three, Hoster probably assumed that Walder Frey would die soon after the Rebellion.

I still don't see how Jon Arryn is an idiot, or an inadequate opponent for Rhaegar?

You later said, "the rebellion only succeeded because the King was insane and Hoster Tully had already built a Stark-Tully-Arryn~Lannister alliance."

I really have no idea what your talking about here. First off, it was Ned's father Rickard Stark, that came up with the idea for Brandon Stark, to Marry Catelyn Tully, because Rickard had "Southern ambitions". Also there was no idea of a Tully-Arryn alliance, until after months into the Rebellion. Ned, Robert, and Jon Arryn wanted Hoster Tully to join the Rebellion, but Hoster would only agree to it, if Ned married Catelyn in the place of his brother, and if Jon Arryn married Lysa(despite Lysa loosing her maidenhead to Littlefinger, Hoster knew that, that would be the only way to find a "good" marriage for Lysa, because she was pretty much used goods at that point).

So there was no alliance before the Rebellion, only a betrothal between Catelyn and Brandon, and Lyanna and Robert, but considering that Brandon died at the start of the Rebellion, that betrothal didn't mean much. So you can't dumb down the victory of the Rebellion, by saying they only won because there was some great alliance before the Rebellion Started, because there really wasn't.

Also where do you get the Lannister part of your imaginary alliance??? At no point was there ever a Stark-Tully-Arryn-Lannister alliance, before or after the Rebellion Started, and the Lannisters didn't do shit to help the Rebellion, so even if there "was" one, I don't see why you would point that out.

You act like there is no proof of Robert and Ned being Smart battle commanders during the Rebellion, but there is. Robert was Smart enough to forgive his enemies, and turn them into allies, also Robert once won three battles in one day, I am pretty sure that an idiot couldn't do all that.

Other than Ned and Robert not being good at the back stabbing, cut throat, Game of Thrones, I still don't see how that means they are idiots? Was Ned not a good father? Was Ned not a great Warden of the North?

Ned and Robert aren't good at the Game of Thrones, unlike Littlefinger. Does that mean Ned and Robert are stupid? No.

Just like Littlefinger would be awful at leading a battle, but that doesn't make him an idiot, it just means people a good at something's, and bad at others.