Robb's Last Document?

[Know Face Man]

Yeah your right the only point of legitimacy Jon is to make him a Stark, in Robbs mind.

When I said it didn't make Jon heir I only meant it didn't put him next in line right after Robb.

Unless Robb stated in his will that Jon's a Stark and is right next in line, I don't believe Jon would be next in line. Robb thought Bran Arya and Rickon were dead so he had no need to put in his Will that Jon would come before anyone other then his issue (child)

The Great Bastards are unique but none of them took the last name Targaryen.

I do believe Robb and Cat did talk about (once Jon's a STARK he cant ever be a Snow AGAIN) so I'm taking that as Robb did make Jon (JON STARK) and put him as Heir only behind his Issue (Child)

Jon didn't just refuse the offer Stannis made him about being Lord of Winterfell!! Stannis wanted Jon to Burn the Gods Wood and give up the Old Gods and workship to Lord of Light. That Jon could not do.

The KING OF THE NORTH IS NOT DEAD, HE SITS AT THE WALL CHILLEN.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Bah, that king of the north part of the story is over, at this point seems highly unlikely and something out-of-character even, going back to it would be a mistake in my opinion.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Bah, that king of the north part of the story is over, at this point seems highly unlikely and something out-of-character even, going back to it would be a mistake in my opinion.

Eh, vehemently disagree. I think that now that the North's tasted autonomy, they won't be so willing to go back. I hope they don't. The fact that Robb's will hasn't resurfaced yet and that Davos is going after Rickon should be evidence that it isn't over, probably not by a long shot.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Eh, vehemently disagree. I think that now that the North's tasted autonomy, they won't be so willing to go back. I hope they don't. The fact that Robb's will hasn't resurfaced yet and that Davos is going after Rickon should be evidence that it isn't over, probably not by a long shot.

Their loyalty to the Starks is not over, yes, but that doesn't mean they are willing to go back to Robb's mistake. And didn't Manderly promised Davos he would pledge for Stannis if Davos were to return him his *siege lord*? Besides that, Winter's come, the north is depleted of both fighting men and food resources, thousands of wildlings are now living south of the wall, there's still some ironborn around in the north, plus the things happening at the wall and beyond... too many factors to be playing king, specially when there's another king some of them have, at least, temporarily and for the sake of the starks really, pledge their loyalty to, walking around in the north.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Their loyalty to the Starks is not over, yes, but that doesn't mean they are willing to go back to Robb's mistake. And didn't Manderly promised Davos he would pledge for Stannis if Davos were to return him his *siege lord*? Besides that, Winter's come, the north is depleted of both fighting men and food resources, thousands of wildlings are now living south of the wall, there's still some ironborn around in the north, plus the things happening at the wall and beyond... too many factors to be playing king, specially when there's another king some of them have, at least, temporarily and for the sake of the starks really, pledge their loyalty to, walking around in the north.

It's his liege lord. And yes, Manderly says that ... but he sends Davos after Rickon. Bran's the new liege lord, not Rickon. I have an idea that Manderly might be doing some word play and may renege on the offer of loyalty to Stannis. The other northern lords are only backing Stannis so he can help them avenge Robb and Ned and get the Starks back in Winterfell. Stannis is a means to an end to them. If the North goes back to being just another Iron Throne property, it means that all of those people died for nothing. Maybe that's fine with you, but I find that extremely distasteful and hope they keep fighting for independence.

[Lyanna Stark]

Eh, vehemently disagree. I think that now that the North's tasted autonomy, they won't be so willing to go back. I hope they don't. The fact that Robb's will hasn't resurfaced yet and that Davos is going after Rickon should be evidence that it isn't over, probably not by a long shot.

Exactly. Plus you also have the fact that the South is to a larger or smaller degree torn apart by war. The Riverlands are basically completely sacked, burnt or worse and there has been a lot of slaughter on all sides. Saltpans doesn't even exist anymore. The Ironborn are raiding the Reach. While the Lannister lands are mostly untouched so far, their army has taken a beating. Aegon is taking everything he can in the Stormlands, so there is bound to be much more fighting before everything is said and done. Only a few areas are completely untouched (Dorne, the Vale), and with Aegon surfacing, Dorne might get involved as well.

Sure, the North has its own amount of issues (Winterfell being sacked, Stannis outside in the snow, etc) but on the whole, it looks like a whole lot more shit will go down further south, giving the north some time to regroup. I doubt Aegon will be happy with just some bits of the Stormlands, he will most likely try to take Kings Landing, which would draw a much larger portion of the south into warfare. With winter being on its way as well, that means a lot more destruction and suffering before it's finished.

Maybe it's wrong, but I also always got the feelings the northerners were more diligent when it came to preparing for winter and knew how to survive it, since it was a more urgent threat for them than to the southerners.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

It's his liege lord. And yes, Manderly says that ... but he sends Davos after Rickon. Bran's the new liege lord, not Rickon. I have an idea that Manderly might be doing some word play and may renege on the offer of loyalty to Stannis. The other northern lords are only backing Stannis so he can help them avenge Robb and Ned and get the Starks back in Winterfell. Stannis is a means to an end to them. If the North goes back to being just another Iron Throne property, it means that all of those people died for nothing. Maybe that's fine with you, but I find that extremely distasteful and hope they keep fighting for independence.

Reneging on his word to Davos and just plain using him seems out of character to me, and pretty much make Manderly just another traitorous type ala Freys (pretty hypocritical, huh?). No, that won't happen. Taking on account all the other factors i mentioned that you forgot to adress, it is highly doubtful they would be crowning any more Starks. They still have to take the north back from the Bolton's and Frey's and deal with all the other heavy stuff coming their way with very little resources and plenty of new peoples in their lands so... don't think it would be in their priorities list.

As for extremely distasteful stuff, well, there's a few of them in the books already, no doubt there will be a few more before its all over as well.

[Early Earl]

As I expect there to be a climax of sorts (the Others), I doubt, that this will actually matter. I think we will be left with a Westeros in pieces in the end and just be happy that it all didn't go down in a long, long night. How order will be restored and who gets what in the aftermath will be a different story that will appear fairly uninteresting, after we have seen the real "players" behind all what's been going on starting to fight for real.

[Jon WintryMix]

If I remember correctly, Maester Aemon faced three temptations to leave the wall. There was a scene where he described each of those circumstances to Jon. So far, Jon has refused temptation twice. First, to join the war; second when Stannis offered him Winterfell. I believe he will refuse temptation a third time when Robb's will is revealed. Finally, on his fourth opportunity, Jon will leave the wall to become King of all Westeros.

[John Ball]

Their loyalty to the Starks is not over, yes, but that doesn't mean they are willing to go back to Robb's mistake. And didn't Manderly promised Davos he would pledge for Stannis if Davos were to return him his *siege lord*? Besides that, Winter's come, the north is depleted of both fighting men and food resources, thousands of wildlings are now living south of the wall, there's still some ironborn around in the north, plus the things happening at the wall and beyond... too many factors to be playing king, specially when there's another king some of them have, at least, temporarily and for the sake of the starks really, pledge their loyalty to, walking around in the north.

The north isn't as strong as it was when Robb rebelled, but neither is the south. Also a new King In The North, whether it be Jon, Rickon, Roose, Ramsay, anyone, wouldn't have any real reason to venture into the riverlands as Robb did. They could just declare the north independent and anyone who doesn't like it, come and get us. The north can be defended - in that the winter is an advantage for the north. I'm not sure if it will happen, I have no idea what will happen in The Winds Of Winter. I'm not convinced that Manderly is planning to betray Stannis though.

[Teal'c]

If there is a will and it ever turns up, one of the most important points will be that it disinherits Sansa. That should send Littlefinger's plans awry and keep the Lannisters away from Winterfell.

[Lord Balbi]

If I remember correctly, Maester Aemon faced three temptations to leave the wall. There was a scene where he described each of those circumstances to Jon. So far, Jon has refused temptation twice. First, to join the war; second when Stannis offered him Winterfell. I believe he will refuse temptation a third time when Robb's will is revealed. Finally, on his fourth opportunity, Jon will leave the wall to become King of all Westeros.

Well, maybe you are forgetting there was a letter that can count as a third temptation.. and he failed. At least in intention.

Edit: I guess he didn't really want to "leave the wall" for good, just to take care of Bolton business and then return.

[Lyanna Stark]

If there is a will and it ever turns up, one of the most important points will be that it disinherits Sansa. That should send Littlefinger's plans awry and keep the Lannisters away from Winterfell.

Agreed. Plus if Sansa could somehow give LF the slip and team up with Rickon, she could be the diplomat needed to unite the north again since she could be stand in ruler due to being the only member of house Stark that is off age (if she WILL be of age remains to be seen, but let's hope she will be). She won't be burdened with her own claim, so can operate outside of how highborn ladies normally do.

Interestingly as well, Sansa has come to loathe that the only reason anyone wants to marry her is for her claim. Maybe she'll end up viewing it as a relief that Robb disinherited her.

[_Oberyn_]

Would it matter? Jon has taken oaths as a brother of the Night's Watch.

Not the same situation at all. The first offer came from Stannis and Jon would have had to reject his family's gods. He also thought that Winterfell wasn't Stannis' to give. I think it'd be an entirely different outcome if the offer came from Robb.

For all intents and purposes, it does basically make him a "Stark." That's the point of legitimization in the first place, isn't it? He would take the family name; the Great Bastards are kind of a unique set. And if he's legitimized, he'd enter the line of succession, unless Robb specifically disinherits him (and what's the point of that?). That's why you legitimize someone, so that they can legally inherit titles and/or property. The questions are, did Robb actually legitimize Jon, and if he did, did he Robb hash out a specific succession — is it Jon free and clear, or only Jon if all the other kids are dead?

He is "dead" so the oath is void at this point.

There is a paradox in the bastard succession rule because of the Blackfyres. If the succession law was clean cut Daemon would not have sutch widespread support.

[the Scorpion Knight]

why do I have the feeling that asha will cast his will into the fire

[Lord_Debaka]

Robb has made it all possible here.

If R+L=J turns out to be true (I highly suspect it will) and is proved to be true, then Jon is the King of Westeros, and King to all former Targ supporters (everyone in the south minus the Stormlands).

The rebelion was largely the Vale, the North and the Riverlands, against the south. So the south would hold Jon up as the last male heir Targ (Provided that Aegon turns out to be a fake).

If he was also named heir to Robb Stark, he would be the King in the North as well (and the riverlands).

Jon Snow (Stark, Targ, whatever) would be the legitimate king of Westeros minus the Iron Islands, Vale, and Stormlands. He would have the single best claim to the Iron Throne. Add to that, his sister holds the Vale (would likley accept his claim) and the Stormlands are basicly completely leader-less. So the Stormlands, eager to have protection, and in no position to fight everyone in Westeros, accept Jon as king. The Dornish, recognise Jon Snow as not theirs, but the last true Targ king. The rest of the south is just happy to have a Targ back in power, the North/Riverlands has a king who knows them, who was born in the north, and who loves the north (and is the son of a Stark).

The Vale would accept the rule of the woman who would be their leader (Sansa) who would support her brother.

So yeah... All Hail Jon Stargaryen, King of the Andals and First men, first of his name, etc etc.

[Bayard]

Robb has made it all possible here.

If R+L=J turns out to be true (I highly suspect it will) and is proved to be true, then Jon is the King of Westeros, and King to all former Targ supporters (everyone in the south minus the Stormlands).

The rebelion was largely the Vale, the North and the Riverlands, against the south. So the south would hold Jon up as the last male heir Targ (Provided that Aegon turns out to be a fake).

If he was also named heir to Robb Stark, he would be the King in the North as well (and the riverlands).

Jon Snow (Stark, Targ, whatever) would be the legitimate king of Westeros minus the Iron Islands, Vale, and Stormlands. He would have the single best claim to the Iron Throne. Add to that, his sister holds the Vale (would likley accept his claim) and the Stormlands are basicly completely leader-less. So the Stormlands, eager to have protection, and in no position to fight everyone in Westeros, accept Jon as king. The Dornish, recognise Jon Snow as not theirs, but the last true Targ king. The rest of the south is just happy to have a Targ back in power, the North/Riverlands has a king who knows them, who was born in the north, and who loves the north (and is the son of a Stark).

The Vale would accept the rule of the woman who would be their leader (Sansa) who would support her brother.

So yeah... All Hail Jon Stargaryen, King of the Andals and First men, first of his name, etc etc.

Hm, that sounds about right, and it could be done in only half a book, because all the pieces are already set.... so why not??? Of course, after all this is done, there comes Dany and kills everyone :))

[_Oberyn_]

The pieces are far from set. Jon still has to undergo some transformation. Dany still has to train dragons an maybe take the scenic route though Ashai. Meanwhile Varys & Aegon reshuffle everything and the Others and Winter are comeing.

[kephv]

Bah, that king of the north part of the story is over, at this point seems highly unlikely and something out-of-character even, going back to it would be a mistake in my opinion.

I agree. If only for the reason that if Jon is named King in the North he'd have to fight Stannis, and I don't see that happening.

why do I have the feeling that asha will cast his will into the fire

When did Asha obtain his will?

[Teal'c]

Well, maybe you are forgetting there was a letter that can count as a third temptation.. and he failed. At least in intention.

Edit: I guess he didn't really want to "leave the wall" for good, just to take care of Bolton business and then return.

Is anyone else reading Jon's decision to take care of the Boltons as a sound strategic decision? He can't focus sufficiently on the fight against the Others if the Boltons can attack his rear. Ramsay is a loose cannon. I'm sure Jon initially got the idea to ride out because the letter pissed him off, but it is still a good idea. Although once again not sufficiently explained to his lieutenants to garner their full support. He's got to wise up on that part.

He also needs Mance, both his experience about conditions beyond the wall and Mance's ability to lead organize the new Wildling recruits.