Arya in season 2

[boojam]

George has a lot of little surprises across AoK and SoS , some you can figure out, but for me only two took me unawares.

One has to do with Dany.

The other is Arya tricking Jaqen H'ghar.

When read that piece of narrative I thought "George you did a Gotcha".

Arya's survival story had already hooked me, then I looked forward to each Arya pov in those books.

[Morrigan]

: throughout the series, she NEVER complains of her hardships.

As an uber-fan of Arya, I'm not sure I entirely agree. She does complain, though internally, about some of her hardships, and of course never in a way that could be considered "whiny". Her "complaints" are legitimate. Like you say, she scorns Hot Pie and Lommy's cowardice, she's annoyed at Gendry, she wishes she were back home at Winterfell or that Jon were around to comfort her and muss up her hair, etc. but those are all perfectly justified. Considering the brutality of the hardships she has endured, Arya is so not-whiny that I'd even call her badass. And a "brat"... WTF, people. *shakes head* Sansa is a brat, not Arya. Even when Arya tried to be mature and grown-up at Sansa in AGoT and offered to clean her dress and then make her a new one, Sansa replied with utter scorn and pettiness.

Unfortunately, and I must bring this up (although I am by no means a feminist) I truly believe that females in this series - and indeed, most any series - get the short end of the stick when it comes to (fan) characterization. Male characters seem to be given endless amounts of slack for their shortcomings (with the curious exception of Ned, by some -- perchance because he acts in a compassionate, almost FEMALE way?). Women, on the other hand, are harshly criticized. Dany with her impotence (heh) in Meereen, Catelyn with her "moping about" (as you and many others have said) when she thinks SHE HAS LOST HER ENTIRE FAMILY, AND ALL THE DIALOGUE IS INTERNAL, Cersei, for being a mad, cruel queen, Sansa for being naive to the point of "stupid"...the list goes on. Tywin and Cersei are very similar in their cruelty, but many people think he is the Ultimate Badass. Sandor Clegane is a brutal, psychopathic, wretched man, yet he has a fan following (for the record, I agree he has his redeeming qualities -- is this patriarchal society working its way on my subconscious, too?) People sympathize with Theon, who butchered and flayed two innocent boys who had NOTHING to do with this war, and then feel oh so sorry when Theon get his wittle fingers fwayed! Imo, Catelyn is as strong as steel, Cersei is evil but certainly cunning, Sansa is the epitome of the Maid, Arya is my favorite character who is just a BAMF, and Dany has an almost overwhelming lineage of heroes which she has to live up to. Why is it that men get all the glory and adoration, and women get shat upon?

Now, I am not saying that you personally feel this way AT ALL -- I am merely commenting on the situation. I feel if we switched Arya with, say, Bran, (in ages as well as genders) people would be praising him to the sky for being so fierce and resilient and cunning.

THIS a million times. So true, I've noticed it countlessly. It's actually a bit depressing, and IMO it's simply a big sign of immaturity.

[boojam]

Unfortunately, and I must bring this up (although I am by no means a feminist) I truly believe that females in this series - and indeed, most any series - get the short end of the stick when it comes to (fan) characterization. Male characters seem to be given endless amounts of slack for their shortcomings (with the curious exception of Ned, by some -- perchance because he acts in a compassionate, almost FEMALE way?). Women, on the other hand, are harshly criticized. Dany with her impotence (heh) in Meereen, Catelyn with her "moping about" (as you and many others have said) when she thinks SHE HAS LOST HER ENTIRE FAMILY, AND ALL THE DIALOGUE IS INTERNAL, Cersei, for being a mad, cruel queen, Sansa for being naive to the point of "stupid"...the list goes on. Tywin and Cersei are very similar in their cruelty, but many people think he is the Ultimate Badass. Sandor Clegane is a brutal, psychopathic, wretched man, yet he has a fan following (for the record, I agree he has his redeeming qualities -- is this patriarchal society working its way on my subconscious, too?) People sympathize with Theon, who butchered and flayed two innocent boys who had NOTHING to do with this war, and then feel oh so sorry when Theon get his wittle fingers fwayed! Imo, Catelyn is as strong as steel, Cersei is evil but certainly cunning, Sansa is the epitome of the Maid, Arya is my favorite character who is just a BAMF, and Dany has an almost overwhelming lineage of heroes which she has to live up to. Why is it that men get all the glory and adoration, and women get shat upon?

George is such a gem crack story teller, I wish I could write that like that, few can. However in Dany's case I can see why he wanted to 'pause' her, but to 'stall' her ... well it's as if George was trying to get those writer's gears cranking and Dany just goes sideways in ADwD (well till the end).

Dany is a non-exact analog of Cleopatra. A monarch descended from Alexander the Great. Except Cleopatra (really Cleopatra VII) was born into the Ptolemaic dynasty , which was a little less paternalistic , especially compared to Rome. Cleopatra had to maneuver in a world of much more formidable and very intelligent men in particular Julius Caesar and Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus (Mark Antony was capable but let that thing the Greeks hated so much , hubris, lead him to oblivion). We find in modern historical research a Cleopatra who was more politically savvy than older popular dramas. Whereas Cleopatra faced real Machiavellian foe, Dany has to deal with ball-peen brutes and perfumed pinheads.

I can't see Catherine de' Medici or Catherine the Great putting up with such shenanigans , and Elisabeth I would have dealt that whole crew of losers a very subtle hand of regret.

Maybe Byzantine intrigue with the Green Grace would have been the way to go if George had of developed that character.

[Hear Us Roar]

I hope they don't give her too much time. Her arcs are boring and i hope we see more of people who are not long for this earth, hint hint.

I want more of the power players, Arya is kinda along for the rid and is not as compelling for me.

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

I hope they don't give her too much time. Her arcs are boring and i hope we see more of people who are not long for this earth, hint hint.

I want more of the power players, Arya is kinda along for the rid and is not as compelling for me.

Can we please remember that there are two more volumes to go in this series - or even more if George feels the need. Arya is going to have a big part to play. He cannot have invested this much time and effort into her story just to have her fritter away into nothing. And remember - Needle is under that stone.... :D

Morrigan and Dark Sister - spot on! Nothing to add to your excellent posts.

[dark sister]

Can we please remember that there are two more volumes to go in this series - or even more if George feels the need. Arya is going to have a big part to play. He cannot have invested this much time and effort into her story just to have her fritter away into nothing. And remember - Needle is under that stone.... :D

Morrigan and Dark Sister - spot on! Nothing to add to your excellent posts.

I've always wondered what, if anything, will happen to Needle...

And yes, there is certainly a reason that only Arya out of all the POV characters has an arc in all five books! So people like Hear Us Roar might not get their wish...

Btw, I love your user name :lol:

[boojam]

I've always wondered what, if anything, will happen to Needle...

And yes, there is certainly a reason that only Arya out of all the POV characters has an arc in all five books! So people like Hear Us Roar might not get their wish...

Btw, I love your user name :lol:

Arya was not supposed to hide Needle...and it's hard to believe that the FM did no know she did.

I find that interesting... they may even know about her warging too....

They have some plan for her, but not as a FM or would that be Faceless Person?

[dark sister]

Arya was not supposed to hide Needle...and it's hard to believe that the FM did no know she did.

I find that interesting... they may even know about her warging too....

They have some plan for her, but not as a FM or would that be Faceless Person?

Well, I'm positive that they know she hid Needle. They seem to know about everything she does, which means that they must have either set a spy on her (the waif, perhaps, or the kindly man) or they have some other "magical art" that allows them to see what she does.

And yeah, she would be a FW I suppose :)

I don't see how they could know about her warging, unless they know quite a lot about the subject -- such as how the Starks have a history of such...but it seems that the warg stuff has been rekindled at about the same time (if not slightly before) the dragons were born, which supposedly brought magic into the world again. They found the wolf pups when Dany was still at Illyrio's manse, if the timelines are supposed to coincide in the first book -- which I think they are.

What makes you think they might know about her warging? When the KM asked her how she knew who was hitting her, she never gave him an answer. I'm not sure Occam's Razor would make him think "oh it must be an ability to warg" rather than "she guessed it was me".

Another thing that I've always wondered about is how they are going to "take her genitals". They said they would take her eyes, her ears, etc. and we saw that they took her eyes - so to speak - with that potion. They could ostensibly take her ears with another type of potion.

But I kinda wonder what would be the use of making her genitals numb when she hasn't even gone thru puberty yet, and she's never had an internal feeling of lust...or at least, I don't think you could count her roughhousing type of flirting with Gendry as lust, or even flirting. Maybe they plan to do it when she is a little older and feeling those hormones rushing in...but just judging from her personality, I can't imagine her firm resolve wavering too much just b/c she's feeling lusty. She also seems to have high standards when it comes to men she considers nice/good. The only boys I've ever seen her close to having some sort of fond regard for was Gendry, and later the short amount of type she was with Edric, Lord of Starfall.

[boojam]

Well, I'm positive that they know she hid Needle. They seem to know about everything she does, which means that they must have either set a spy on her (the waif, perhaps, or the kindly man) or they have some other "magical art" that allows them to see what she does.

And yeah, she would be a FW I suppose :)

I don't see how they could know about her warging, unless they know quite a lot about the subject -- such as how the Starks have a history of such...but it seems that the warg stuff has been rekindled at about the same time (if not slightly before) the dragons were born, which supposedly brought magic into the world again. They found the wolf pups when Dany was still at Illyrio's manse, if the timelines are supposed to coincide in the first book -- which I think they are.

What makes you think they might know about her warging? When the KM asked her how she knew who was hitting her, she never gave him an answer. I'm not sure Occam's Razor would make him think "oh it must be an ability to warg" rather than "she guessed it was me".

Well they seem to know everything, tho don't hold me to that.

Arya is odd in the fact that she is the only aristocrat (I know we don't think of her that way)from a major house who is , well, in training, to the FM. We , of course don't know if there are others, in fact for an order that seems to have more than just a dozen FM, we have met only only , is it four or just three? (Seem to be some moving in the background at the guild house.)

The mission of the FM , beyond some religious hoopla, is very mysterious, they seem, maybe to be mixed up with the Iron Bank,.... conspiracies and conspirators abroad.

Arya as a FM yet not a FM would be valuable to them.

Tho , like many, so far, they may underestimate an adult Arya, and she may surprise them and all the conspirators.

O yes, on the other stuff, I can't make head nor tail of it or where George is heading with that stuff.

[Harle The Handsome]

Well who knew Arya could be so popular. Never could have imagined a helpless 10 year old would be popular over characters like Tyrion and Jon. Each to their own. But even George has said that the 5 year gap would have worked best for her, so it's clear even he thought she could do with some gwoing up.

Actually, Arya is one of the most popular arcs in the readership's minds. In fact, one of Arya's most ardent supporters is GRRM's wife Parris, who went so far as to give him an ultimatum if he ever thought about killing Arya.

The value of her arc in aCoK was to show a child powerful by birth have everything taken away from her but her wits, get cast off into the role of a helpess serf- buffetted by the whims of scheming lords, only to find that her true power lies in her courage and cunning. This is what Jaquen H'gar saw in her and that was why he offered her the iron coin allowing passage to Braavos. I can't see how anyone paying close attention to this saga could find that an unimportant page-filler.

[boojam]

The value of her arc in aCoK was to show a child powerful by birth have everything taken away from her but her wits, get cast off into the role of a helpess serf- buffetted by the whims of scheming lords, only to find that her true power lies in her courage and cunning. This is what Jaquen H'gar saw in her and that was why he offered her the iron coin allowing passage to Braavos. I can't see how anyone paying close attention to this saga could find that an unimportant page-filler.

Lord knows what George had in mind.

Have always suspected that the FM had an eye on Arya...and is the reason for the totally , seemly crazy coincidence that a FM like Jaquen would be in the dungeons. Or was he? Did Yoren actually hand pick each and every one? Or tell the jailers to make the prisoners a offer they could not refuse? So to speak. :)

Jaquen could have lain doggo and slipped in when he knew where Arya was going.

Syrio, Jaquen, the Guild, all associated with Braavos... even the Iron Bank could be involved.

Arya is extraordinary,quick witted, fearless, and high born too...

Braavos has a stake in the game and maybe Arya is their ticket, tho she may act out of free will eventually.

[dark sister]

The mission of the FM , beyond some religious hoopla, is very mysterious, they seem, maybe to be mixed up with the Iron Bank,.... conspiracies and conspirators abroad.

I always thought that they had some connection to the Iron Bank, too. Partly b/c the FM coin is made of iron, and partly b/c of their ominous saying "the Iron Bank will have its due"...like, if people don't pay them back, a FM might visit them and "convince" them to honor their loans. Talk about a scary IRS :)

[kephv]

Another thing that I've always wondered about is how they are going to "take her genitals". They said they would take her eyes, her ears, etc. and we saw that they took her eyes - so to speak - with that potion. They could ostensibly take her ears with another type of potion.

But I kinda wonder what would be the use of making her genitals numb when she hasn't even gone thru puberty yet, and she's never had an internal feeling of lust...or at least, I don't think you could count her roughhousing type of flirting with Gendry as lust, or even flirting. Maybe they plan to do it when she is a little older and feeling those hormones rushing in...but just judging from her personality, I can't imagine her firm resolve wavering too much just b/c she's feeling lusty. She also seems to have high standards when it comes to men she considers nice/good. The only boys I've ever seen her close to having some sort of fond regard for was Gendry, and later the short amount of type she was with Edric, Lord of Starfall.

I don't think we're supposed to take the private parts part of the Kindly Man's speech literally. For instance, people have speculated that her next position will be as a courtesan (she's getting a pretty face), learning the ways of the seven sighs. Her body is theirs to do with as they please. Whatever the job requires, she'll have to do. So basically, she's going to have no control over any part of her life if she wants to serve with them.

[dark sister]

I don't think we're supposed to take the private parts part of the Kindly Man's speech literally. For instance, people have speculated that her next position will be as a courtesan (she's getting a pretty face), learning the ways of the seven sighs. Her body is theirs to do with as they please. Whatever the job requires, she'll have to do. So basically, she's going to have no control over any part of her life if she wants to serve with them.

MFO, I've noticed over the posts I've made and you've made that we seem to have the same opinion as well as respect and admiration for each other. But here, I don't agree. I think when they say "we will take your genitals" they mean numbing her genitals. A courtesan's life is NOT the life of a faceless woman, and I really, really doubt that they would put her through that training. It's a hunch of mine. An intuition. But courtesans have to go thru rituals of their own, and when they do, they have to stick with their positions of courtesans. That's part of why I believe that the KM said "I could give u a position of a courtesan" -- b/c it's a totally different lifestyle. I don't believe that the position of a FM and a position of a courtesan can meld. I may be wrong, but apparently Arya is being sent to this other guy, and I doubt he will teach her the way of the 7 sighs, which is specific to Yunkai. I understand where you're coming from, tho.

So...what did everyone think of the first episode of season 2? I didn't like it at all. They changed a lot of things. I'll elaborate later. What did y'all think?

[kephv]

MFO, I've noticed over the posts I've made and you've made that we seem to have the same opinion as well as respect and admiration for each other. But here, I don't agree. I think when they say "we will take your genitals" they mean numbing her genitals. A courtesan's life is NOT the life of a faceless woman, and I really, really doubt that they would put her through that training. It's a hunch of mine. An intuition. But courtesans have to go thru rituals of their own, and when they do, they have to stick with their positions of courtesans. That's part of why I believe that the KM said "I could give u a position of a courtesan" -- b/c it's a totally different lifestyle. I don't believe that the position of a FM and a position of a courtesan can meld. I may be wrong, but apparently Arya is being sent to this other guy, and I doubt he will teach her the way of the 7 sighs, which is specific to Yunkai. I understand where you're coming from, tho.

Well it's hard to say what he meant for sure, but I can't see what the numbing of her genitals will accomplish. Here's the actual quote:

"Stay, and the Many-Faced God will take your ears, your nose, your tongue. He will take your sad grey eyes that have seen so much. He will take your hands, your feet, your arms and legs, your private parts. He will take your hopes and dreams, your loves and hates. Those who enter His service must give up all that makes them who they are."

Some of this is surely literal, as we have seen, which serves a specific purpose of honing some skill (in the blinding case, teaching her to better use her sense of smell and touch), others, I assume, are just a way of telling her that her life will be theirs to do with as they please.

Also, I don't know if there's any one life of a Faceless man/woman. The FM are all about erasing who they are (outwardly anyway) so as to become anyone and fit into any role. Specific training for any lifestyle is sure to help with that.

So...what did everyone think of the first episode of season 2? I didn't like it at all. They changed a lot of things. I'll elaborate later. What did y'all think?

Mostly liked it. There's a thread around here for rating it and giving your own little reviews.

One thing I absolutely didn't like about it -- the serious lack of Arya. I hope she gets the time she deserves in upcoming episodes.

[boojam]

I don't think we're supposed to take the private parts part of the Kindly Man's speech literally. For instance, people have speculated that her next position will be as a courtesan (she's getting a pretty face), learning the ways of the seven sighs. Her body is theirs to do with as they please. Whatever the job requires, she'll have to do. So basically, she's going to have no control over any part of her life if she wants to serve with them.

By the time Arya is finished with the FM, or they are finished with her there won't be time to become a courtesan, lord I can't see a even a grown up Arya doing that!

Maybe she will move into the power circle of the Iron Bank and the Sealord, she may become part of the Varys-Illyrio conspiracy,which I speculate is resourced by Braavos.

This may serve Arya's purposes with or without their cooperation.

[J_Crews]

Can we please remember that there are two more volumes to go in this series - or even more if George feels the need....

I can't imagine how he can finish the story in only two more. I look for it to be extended.

[J_Crews]

I honestly skipped chapters to stay with Arya because I wanted to know what happened to her. I think they will do her arc justice and cannot wait to see the Ghost in Harrenhall episode. Mid-season sounds right for it.

Apparently, they arrive in Harrenhal in episode 4 and “The Ghost of Harrenhal” is the title of episode 5, so you're right on. Mild TV spoilers (episode summaries)

here and here. Also, according to Wikipedia, episode 6 is titled, "The Old Gods and the New"

I'm also interested in just how graphic things are going to be. They've already...

shown the murder of a baby on the tit

... And I recall Arya and company's capture at the village and the march to Harrenhal as including...

prodigious torture, countless rapes, and a 3-yr old boy having his face smashed-in with a mace, before his then-hysterical mother is beheaded my the Mountain.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Have to agree with the pro-Arya camp here. Books are not JUST about plotlines. As far as I'm concerned they're about characters too, and tracing Arya's journey was a joy for me, I'm afraid. I engaged with her in the first book, and in the first series. From the day she got Needle I just knew the kid would kick ass as the series went on.

But one reader's boredom is another's investment. I feel about Theon, as Protar feels about Arya.

:cheers:. I find most of the Ironborn boring.

[Caro99]

i'll tag this under spoilers just in case...

i don't know if someone has already thought about this, but i was watching first the "Pledge your allegiance" video for House Stark and then i watched the "Seven Devils" trailer nd i think i linked two scenes with arya during her time at harrenhal... in the first one we see her saying out loud that they call Robb the Young Wolf now and that they say he can't be killed... but seeing as no one is supposed to know she is arya stark, i think she will then end up saying "Anyone can be killed" to "show" she doesn't care if they kill robb or not. and i think that tywin may be in the room as well when she says this. so maybe she'll be tywin's cupbearer instead of roose bolton's?

anyways, just thought i should let some people know to see if i could be right :)