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fauxkaren

[Book Spoilers] Where is Catelyn Stark and what has HBO done with her?

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Anyone else get a sense of this, or just me?

To be fair, it's been reported elsewhere that the aforementioned scene was shot the exact same way in the original pilot. Regardless of the recast -and whoever they might have cast- I don't believe it (has) had much of an impact on their choices for the direction of the character.

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No. Just no. Please don't tell me that Catelyn is going to release Jaime because she's a silly stupid woman who Tyrion tricks into it. Just... No. :(

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I wouldn't say "tricks". But yes, it's Tyrion who is the originator of the idea and has it proposed to Catelyn directly rather than making a more general statement in public.

Yet another original idea of hers given to someone else. And it's not just men getting her ideas, I'm pretty sure there's another woman who'll be getting another sort of notion of hers soon.

I don't think D&D have any special feeling for Catelyn, so they're not paying very much attention to her in the narrative, and so they fall intousing her as a grab-bag of things they can pass off to other characters.

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On the issue of people accusing HBO / GRRM of sexism and saying that is the driving force behind Catelyn's character changes, I have a few simple things to say: Osha, or Yara, as you would know her from the show. The Mormont women. Daenerys. Brienne. Arya. Osha. Ygritte. Harma. The female hill tribe barbarian who's name slipped my mind. The Green Grace. The Sandsnakes! VAL. And the biggest badass of them all Meli-fing-sandre! Denying these characters their badassery and saying it isn't there is sexism. The scene where Robb is being stupid hitting up on a girl and Catelyn being the clever one and reminding him he shouldn't. Now please pull that stick out of your - and consider the characters I just named. Also consider that Catelyn is given a large responsibility, rather than 'sent home'.

Catelyn still comes off as a clever, strong-willed woman to me despite the adaptions, and Robb? He seems rather conceited and not very well-spoken. The show hasn't made me like him much more than I did in the series and the only reason I ever liked his one-dimensional - to begin with was because it seemed he was the only guy who could wipe out the Lannisters. I'm not a Cat-hater but you can't deny apart from being clever sometimes she's done some dumb - as well, just like Robb and really just most characters in the story. That's how these characters retain their humanity and what makes them (to me) so likable even if I don't agree with their choices. This is not SoT where the main character can do anything and is always right.

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Not to say that Sexism plays no role in Westeros, but it plays no role in the hostage value of Sansa & Arya vs. the Kingslayer. That was mostly strategic. Jaime Lannister was a feared military leader, warrior and swordsman. He was deadly and could sway a battle, and therefore a war. Holding him made the Lannisters weaker. Sansa & Arya were loved by the Starks, but that was their only value. They couldn't sway a war, and were of no more value to the North than any number of other family members who were lost- Karstarks, Umbers, etc. Therefore, trading them for the Kingslayer not only was strategically unsound, but belittled the loss of members of other houses.

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I am amazed no one has spoke up yet about what was done with trying to make Cat more sympathetic with her heartwarming tale about how she secretly cared deeply for Jon Snow and begged Eddard to let the boy take the Stark name! This was pure crap! It doesnt even follow the continuity of the show itself from how she was portreyed in the first season.

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I am amazed no one has spoke up yet about what was done with trying to make Cat more sympathetic with her heartwarming tale about how she secretly cared deeply for Jon Snow and begged Eddard to let the boy take the Stark name! This was pure crap! It doesnt even follow the continuity of the show itself from how she was portreyed in the first season.

It's been discussed a lot in other threads, mostly here - asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84359-book-spoilers-cat-and-jon-snow/

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What the writers seem to be doing with Catelyn is really upsetting me. In the original text, she was a pragmatic feudal lady with keen political insights, whose less competent teenaged son pushed her aside and wanted her to go away and leave him alone. A teenaged son who was portrayed as generally politically inept, and whose chest-thumping refusal to trade the Kingslayer for his sisters enabled the Red Wedding, a Lannister power grab through Sansa, and a Bolton power grab through a false Arya.

The way that she has been adapted for the screen is, frankly, sexist. She was a politically smart and ambitious woman who was ignored for merely being a woman while a young teen ruined their House through misplaced trust and naiveté. She is hated by fans for, well, being a politically smart and ambitious woman who interferes with the male “heroes” and points out their poor decisions instead of going back to her babies where she belongs.

So the way HBO decides to adapt her is to make Robb recite her lines from the book that show political insight, remove her from the table where the political decisions are being made, and validate all the misogyny being directed her way by having this adapted character say that her place is back with her babies (because, of course, that’s where a good woman belongs and should want to be!).

In the books, she was *right* in almost every call she made — but her opinions are dismissed because she is a woman and Robb is 1) a rebellious teen; and, 2) has embraced some of the ingrained sexism of his society and doesn't want his bannermen to see him taking advice from Mom. The commentary here, which passes straight over the heads of a lot of fans, is really genius. If Robb *had* listened to mommy, House Stark would not have been demolished the way it was.

And the writers chose to not only ignore that, but to diminish the female character so as to pump up the male — in a way that completely validates the misogyny targeting the character (a good woman’s place is with her babies and not involved in politics – in fact, if she’s involved in politics at all, it should be reluctantly!) but that also misses the point of the entire arc. My honest-to-God reaction was, WTF are you doing HBO?

Catelyn's plotline deals heavily with themes of sexism. After Ned’s execution, she was calling for peace while the men around her chose war (and devastated the North and the Riverlands). Robb wanted her to go back to Bran and Rickon but she wanted to stay with him, where the future of their family was being decided. It was her idea to visit Renly to attempt to make an alliance, not Robb’s. She wasn’t entirely against sending an envoy to Balon, just not Theon. She wanted Ned to go south to become Robert’s Hand.

Now, she’s been downgraded. One assumes that the reasons for it are three-fold: 1) To pump up Robb and make him sexier to the audiences instead of portrying the tragic boy king in over his head that he actually was; 2) to make her more palatable to audiences (because a woman’s place is with her babies, doncha know); and 3) to amend Cersei’s characterization as she gets the storyline of a son who has slipped her control instead.

Congratulations on either completely missing the entire point of a character arc and plotline or demonstrating a stupendous level of sexism, all while validating the misogyny that permeates this fandom.

Whilst I agree with most of your points, Catelyn was not right in almost every call she made. In fact one of the few bits of advice she gave to Robb that he took, well, it proved quite disastrous.

Why does Roose Bolton have half the Northern Army? Robb wanted to give it to the Greatjon but Catelyn said something about good leaders needing restraint or calmness or etc etc. That's good in theory, but... it didn't work out too well for the King in the North, eh? In fact, I would say that was one of the pivotal points of the entire war. Roose Bolton sending the Stark forces to suicide at Duskendale and of course the Red Wedding.

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So... Catelyn should somehow have foreseen Roose's betrayal? Roose handled the battle of the Green Fork well whereas the Greatjon was expected to go in all guns blazes and probably lose a lot of his force, so I believe Catelyn was right on this call, too.

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