[Book Spoilers] Where is Catelyn Stark and what has HBO done with her?

[HyacinthGirl]

To be honest, I really don't mind that Cat's role has been...altered. It makes sense that, if Robb is getting more screen time (a decision I'm fine with), Catelyn gets slightly less. I don't dislike her, but I think a slightly less intense role will work for the show. Also, if any of the writers picked up on the (unfair) amount of Cat bashing that goes on, they may have felt the need to tone her down a bit.

If this means we don't get to see the "there is no creature so pitiful as an ugly girl" side of her, she'll be a hell of a lot more popular.

[Lord Varys]

The real problem with Catelyn is:

What are they going to do with her after Bran and Rickon are believed dead? She is already nothing but housewife and mother, so I'm not sure how this devastating blow is going to influence/change her behavior/character.

Catelyn in the books did change during the series. She started as a caring wife/mother and ambitious Lady of Winterfell. In the series she is just a worried mother. That sucks, but I have learned to live with it in season 1.

Cat not trusting Balon Greyjoy is okay in my opinion, since this does actually show more political acumen than book-Cat has in that same situation. Balon would have attacked the North either way. He'd not have cared about Theon being a Stark hostage. He had already decided that Asha would be his heir. And knowing Robb, he would most likely not had the guts to punish Theon for Balon's actions. They were friends of sorts, after all, and Theon had fought at Robb's side in two battles... So sending somebody else as ambassador to Pyke would have changed little.

[Envie]

Cat not trusting Balon Greyjoy is okay in my opinion, since this does actually show more political acumen than book-Cat has in that same situation. Balon would have attacked the North either way. He'd not have cared about Theon being a Stark hostage. He had already decided that Asha would be his heir. And knowing Robb, he would most likely not had the guts to punish Theon for Balon's actions. They were friends of sorts, after all, and Theon had fought at Robb's side in two battles... So sending somebody else as ambassador to Pyke would have changed little.

Again, we all have to keep remembering the constraints the show producers are under when considering why they make changes to a character's script or style that isn't in the books. You made a good observation that Catelyn's warning Robb about not trusting the Greyjoys gave her more political credibility AND helps set up the audience's expectations of the story to come in regards to Theon returning to his Father at Pyke.

Book readers have the luxury of far far more background detail regarding Balon Greyjoy, the Ironborn and the history. The show viewers are not getting those details and so they need a more direct way to convey the situation. I think they're doing an ok job with changes to Cat, and despite others opinion she's been weakened, I really believe the series fans who don't read the books see her in a different light altogether. They see her as a parallel force to Cersei. This is the way its explained in the behind-the-scenes interviews with the producers and actors as well. They want a struggle between two Mothers kind of plot to form. Both Mothers have had strong moments and weak moments. Both have made serious mistakes that end up shaping the events to come.

I'm not sure why so many people have more issues with the way Catelyn's role plays out over the way Cersei's does. I'm not fond of the actress playing Cersei but she does have some well done scenes and is playing the part well. I actually prefer the actress playing Catelyn and believe she's managed to get people to both admire or dislike her one way or the other which is also how many feel about Cersei too. In that you don't like Catelyn of the series is also a testament to the actor's ability (no one would argue that point about Joffrey anyways).

[Howdyphillip]

Cat not trusting Balon Greyjoy is okay in my opinion, since this does actually show more political acumen than book-Cat has in that same situation. Balon would have attacked the North either way. He'd not have cared about Theon being a Stark hostage. He had already decided that Asha would be his heir. And knowing Robb, he would most likely not had the guts to punish Theon for Balon's actions. They were friends of sorts, after all, and Theon had fought at Robb's side in two battles... So sending somebody else as ambassador to Pyke would have changed little.

Except that no one else but Theon would have attacked Winterfell from the Greyjoy camp. It was too far inland, and could not be provisioned or protected. Theon took it because of his connection to it. Otherwise, it would have been left alone. This was made clear in the books.

[bloodymime]

GRRM DOES show that she is politically shrewd and competent. She knows what the Freys want and thus is able to treat with them and make the deal that allows Robb to cross the Twins.

I guess I'm not political at all because I never understood how giving a minor house like Frey EVERYTHING he wanted could be considered shrewd and competent. To me shrewd and competent would have been to settle the deal with the wards, the squire and one Stark. A less shrewd and less comeptent deal would have perhaps been the wards, the squire along with Arya and Rickon married off to Freys but still surely not the Lord of Winterfell let alone the King of the North. You don't use one of your biggest chips on the first obstacle you come across. Compare Renly's marriage alliance with Robb's and it's absolutely ridiculous to the point that even later Cat wishes Robb wasn't wasted on the Freys so they could make an offer for Margaery.

At least Frey did treat them to a dinner after bending them over so badly, but really, has a king ever been married for less political gain.

I honestly can't see Cat especially as a Tully sell Robb for so little to one of her family's freaking bannermen. That really had to be one of those things written in just to set up the red wedding.

[Ran]

Robb's efforts would have been completely wasted without the Freys. Robb knew it, Catelyn knew it... and Walder Frey knew it.

And marrying one of the great houses of the riverlands -- however new and disreputable, the Freys are a solidly "second tier" house -- is not, really, a bad thing. Who else is Robb going to marry, really? No Lannister, no Greyjoy, no Arryn, no Baratheon, no Tully... there's basically Arianne in Dorne, which no one ever thinks about for even a second, and then there's Margaery Tyrell but that was basically never going to happen since Mace aspired to have ties to the Iron Throne, basically, which Robb did not in fact aspire to (nor should he have).

Maegor the Cruel married a Westerling, Aegon III Dragonbane married a Velaryon, and so on and so forth. Not all marriages need be hugely valuable in the long-run -- sometimes they're made for short-term and expedient goals, and you just deal with not having the option on the table down the road.

[Stark@heart]

The need to secure Robb's passage was indeed great but I agree with bloodymime. You don't marry off the King in the North before he's even begun to rule. Robb had a serious war to wage with all the Starks lives and the lives of his bannermen hanging in the balance. Not an idea time to be distracted by thoughts of an unknown bride that awaits you. I think its GRRM showing that while Catelyn has good intentions they usually go bad. Maybe it's a Tully trait. I'm thinking of Edmure here and mayhaps Hoster as well. His taking of young Peter as a ward is one of many paths that lead us up to the Red Wedding.

[Alexia]

Not only was Robb not going anywhere without Lord Walder's support, which he was giving at a price (since you know, treason to the crown and aiding rebellion) Robb wasn't king of anything at the time the marriage alliance was made. He wasn't even the Lord of Winterfell yet as Ned was still alive; he was marching south with the intention of attempting to free the actual Lord of Winterfell. And he would not have become king of anything without Lord Walder's initial support, either.

And HBO still had Catelyn broker the marriage alliance, which it seems Robb still is responsible for breaking (at least from the promos I've seen).

[Alexia]

"We must have the Twins, Mother," Robb said heatedly. "There is no other way across the river. You know that."

"Yes. And so does Walder Frey, you can be sure of that."

AND

I must have that crossing," Robb declared, fuming. "Oh, our horses might be able to swim the river, I suppose, but not with armored men on their backs. We'd need to build rafts to pole our steel across, helms and mail and lances, and we don't have the trees for that. Or the time. Lord Tywin is marching north..." He balled his hand into a fist.

"Lord Frey would be a fool to try and bar our way," Theon Greyjoy said with his customary easy confidence. "We have five times his numbers. You can take the Twins if you need to, Robb."

"Not easily," Catelyn warned them, "and not in time. While you were mounting your siege, Tywin Lannister would bring up his host and assault you from the rear."

AND

"The Freys have held the crossing for six hundred years, and for six hundred years they have never failed to exact their toll."

"What toll? What does he want?"

She smiled. "That is what we must discover."

"And what if I do not chose to pay this toll?"

"Then you had best retreat back to Moat Cailin, deploy to meet Lord Tywin in battle... or grow wings. I see no other choices."

AND

"Now, what do you want to say?"

"We want to cross," Catelyn told him.

"Oh, do you? That's blunt. Why should I let you?"

Fora moment her anger flared. "If you were strong enough to climb your own battlements, Lord Frey, you would see that my son has twenty thousand men outside your wals."

"They'll be twenty thousand fresh corpses when Lord Tywin gets here," the old man shot back. "Don't you try and frighten me, my lady. Your husband's in some traitor's cell under the Red Keep, your father's sick, might be dying, and Jaime Lannister's got your brother in chains. What do you have that I should fear? That son of yours? I'll match you son for son, and I'll still have eighteen when yours are all dead."

"You swore an oath to my father," Catelyn reminded him.

He bobbed his head side to side, smiling. "Oh, yes, I said some words, but I swore oaths to the crown too, it seems to me. Joffrey's the king now and that makes you and your boy and all those fools out there no better than rebels. If I had the sense the gods gave a fish, I'd help the Lannisters boil you all."

[bloodymime]

Man my sense of timeline is all off there. Been too long since I've read Game of Thrones but it still doesn't change my opinion that it didn't show much shrewdness or competence giving the glorified toll booth attendants everything they wanted. The heir of Winterfell is still more then Frey could have ever hoped for and you don't let the salesman sell you a used pinto with flat tires just because he doesn't have a porsche on the lot.

[David Selig]

The Starks were in a bad negotiating position at the time, they were screwed if Lord Frey had simply closed his gates and didn't let them pass. with Tywin's huge army in their back. Their only chance to do anything in the South military besides going home scared of Tywin's army was to get the Freys on their side and Lord Walder knew it. That's why he could demand a lot and why getting only a promises for two marriages in return for 4000 soldiers and letting the army pass at a crucial time was a very good deal.

[bloodymime]

Perhaps going to the rescue of Tully lands was the only worthwhile military objective on the continet, I'm sure Cat would think so anyways. Perhaps the only negotiating strategy possible was to send a single woman in to secure crossing, Cat though so anyways and what boy is going to think his mother is wrong.

Even if those truly are the only choices available it still doesn't change the fact that it takes neither shrewdness nor competence to give up so much for a ferry ride across a river, it just takes a willingness to be taken advantage of.

[heartofgold]

Perhaps going to the rescue of Tully lands was the only worthwhile military objective on the continet, I'm sure Cat would think so anyways. Perhaps the only negotiating strategy possible was to send a single woman in to secure crossing, Cat though so anyways and what boy is going to think his mother is wrong.

Even if those truly are the only choices available it still doesn't change the fact that it takes neither shrewdness nor competence to give up so much for a ferry ride across a river, it just takes a willingness to be taken advantage of.

No. That's a willful misread of the situation. Rescue of the Tully lands was only a part of the objective in the Northern campaign south. It is illustrated in the novel (and has been pointed out here -multiple times, now) that crossing The Twins was the ONLY option and Walder Frey held ALL of the power in terms of negotiation.

Back to the topic- on rewatch earlier today, I took extra care to note the dialogue in the Cat and Robb scene. Never once does she actually say, I want to go home, but rather, It's time I go... as if she's resigned to the fact that Robb is not going to take her advice, the girls are secondary in his concern, etc. There are many more layers there, than are apparent on first viewing -largely due to the performances- and it's actually beautifully written BUT it's still a diluted/tempered Catelyn and a manboy hero (won't say Gary Stu) Robb. It feels like an oversimplification of characters by a production team that isn't entirely comfortable with the idea of trusting their audience.

[Lord Orys Baratheon]

I am so glad this thread was started. I think Catelyn's character in the TV show is the worse adaption of any character or story line. Overall the show is very good, but due to being a normal TV show that needs to pander to an average TV audience, the character of Catelyn has been destroyed. In the TV show she comes off as an average typical TV show women; one of the main reasons the GoT books are so great is stereotypical characters are very rare, but that is what Catelyn feel likes to me in the TV show. I don't like Catelyn in the books, but that's based on some of her choices and decisions; overall she is an interesting, deep, character and a very strong women. The books are so great because people like Catelyns (TV Show) character are almost non existent, and if they do exist they are ridiculed by other characters or they end up being killed. Anyway sorry if this has been mentioned earlier but I had to get that off my chest. Show will still be good, and it's unfortunate that issues like this have to occur, but it is part of the business when adapting books into TV/movies. I just hope people don't watch the show, and see these details, then assume the its is an accurate portrayal of the book. I hope my other fellow book readers will point this out to friend who only watch the TV show.

[bloodymime]

No. That's a willful misread of the situation. Rescue of the Tully lands was only a part of the objective in the Northern campaign south. It is illustrated in the novel (and has been pointed out here -multiple times, now) that crossing The Twins was the ONLY option and Walder Frey held ALL of the power in terms of negotiation.

It's a misread if you want to see Cat in the best light possible instead of bumbling from one disaster to the next and I'm not saying that as hating her, she's the person i sympathise with most in these books. She watches everything fall apart around her and dies thinking her one child left alive is married to the Imp. It's an absolute nightmare and I'm completely hoping for zombie Cat to have serious bloody vengeance for what's been done to her and her family.

That said I'm never going to believe what she did was nothing but a shortsighted without a doubt mistake. These are the Starks, Lords of Winterfell and Wardens of the North. The series begins with Sansa being promised in marriage to the heir to the Iron Throne and continues on throughout the books with everyone making plays for just the chance at her claim to Winterfell. Bolton is willing to use a fake Stark for the name alone and the power it holds and Manderly is willing to pledge fealty to Stannis again on just the chance that Davos can find the Stark heir and bring him home. In contrast the most notable marriage of a Frey I can think of is to a younger Lannister daughter and Tytos Lannister isn't the man I'd emulate if I wanted to be considered a power in Westeros. What Robb needed most was a Tywin willing to stand up and point out what a bloody mistake Cat had made. A promise of marriage to even a lesser Stark male, say Rickon, was more than Frey could have ever hoped for let alone the heir to Winterfell. It's absurd.

There's no way I'm going to read an entire series building up the Stark name and how much it matters and not consider what Cat did as anything but a horrible blunder. This isn't even a family she's fond of. The first words out of her mouth concerning the Freys is to never trust them and yet she comes out of negotions with them giving up a promise of marriage to her firstborn and yet again heir to Winterfell. Can't say it enough because it's absolutely ridiculous that it's not only not seen as one of her biggest fumblings but somehow turned around as an example of her political shrewdness. I'd say Robb could have had the same results sending in his wolf to do his negotiating but that wouldn't be true because his wolf actually did find a way around an obstacle that everyone wanted to consider as insurmountable.

[Robb Stark The Young Wolf]

Yeah I have to agree. Robb and Cat Stark story is really messed up. I am also dissappointed what the hell happened with Tullies,Riverrun?Fact that they still didnt introduce Brynden Tully,Hoster Tully and Edmure is really frustrating. They are very very important in story about Cat and Robb. Cat acted like every mother she wanted her children back but Jaime is much more worth and Robb was right about that. His bannerman would be very angry if that trade happened. Because of Cat desperation and frustration later she lets him go and doesnt get anything.

[Free Northman]

To make a show that keeps getting renewed, I would start with the following:

Learn from the mistakes of the books - as far as what readers like and don't like is concerned.

Since the number of readers that dislike Catelyn far exceed the number that like her - based on my experience of the board over the last year or so - it would seem to make financial sense to bump Catelyn down and boost the heroic Robb instead.

Hell, I never paritcularly liked Robb in the books, as he came across as too weak for my liking, but I must admit that I am actualy warming to him considerably as portrayed in episode 1 of Season 2.

A kind of Braveheart character appears to be developing.

This is going to be particularly hard hitting when Storm of Swords reaches its conclusion.

[bloodymime]

I'd hope not, I've always thought as Cat as an excellent illustration in the books about how at times there are just no good choices and have certainly never thought of the way she has been written as a mistake. Family, duty, honor. She's done her best to live up to those words but sometimes no matter how hard you try things end badly.

Plus the actress that plays her looks like she's going to do an excellent job of capturing the tragedy of Cat as everything she loves is taken away. She's one of the few in the show that I feel truly matches the character.

[birdsong66]

Since the number of readers that dislike Catelyn far exceed the number that like her - based on my experience of the board over the last year or so - it would seem to make financial sense to bump Catelyn down and boost the heroic Robb instead.

I think one might be well advised to consider that there are those in the world that have read the novels, watched the series, or both, who neither know about this site, or simply do not engage in active participation before jumping to the bolded assumption. While it may be your experience, rightly so, it may not be everyone's.

As for changes to Catelyn, HBO vs. ASoIF, the writing was on the wall for the character as a cliched "MOTHER" trope, sexless and neutered, when in season 1, D&D chose to present Cat and Ned entwined in bed, fully clothed, rather than naked, basking in post coital bliss. It was literally the only interaction between the two throughout the novels that confirmed that they engaged in a sexual relationship, and did so for reasons excepting heirs, of which they managed to rack up an impressive number, regardless. This is not the case with Cercei, Dany, Mel, Asha, etc. The only other "least likely to be bedded" candidates are Selyse and Brienne, both of whom are referred to as unnatural, ugly, and overly masculine.

I'm of the firm belief that D&D simply do not care for Catelyn Stark, that their interpretation and misrepresentation of her reflect this, and I will likely hold this position until such time as they decide to present her as something more than a neutral, sexless, overly simplistic scapegoat for everyone to blame. I simply can't see the purpose for including her in the series outside of the fact that she was too substantial a character in the books to cut altogether. So, when I think about the actress changes, late in the game, I'm left thinking that if they had wanted a "sexier" version of Cat, the original actress was (though I really hate to actually admit this, as a woman) more obviously sexy, in the "she gets it on the regular" sort of way, whereas MF is not as obvious, more controlled, and more in line with what they have presented us in translation to screen. God, I seriously hate that I just typed that, but there it it, in all it's base ugliness. Anyone else get a sense of this, or just me?

In this, maybe D&D understood that MF can, and will, pull off LS brilliantly, whereas the other actress wouldn't be believable? But, again, that is the tragedy of Catelyn Stark, is it not? Her de-evolution into LS? I just wish they had allowed for a more accurate presentation of her, and all her human facets beyond simply devoted mother-type, before dehumanizing her.

[bloodymime]

That part about Ned and Cat, is that fully their decision or is it possible one or both actors didn't want to do a nude scene? And after that scene it's not like they have a lot of chance to be together. Bran falls and Cat is staying with him around the clock, then Ned leaves and of course never comes back. Cat spends much the rest of her life being sick with grief over one tragedy after another hitting her and her loved ones.

Regarding the other women you mentioned, no idea on Mel's age but of the rest Cercei is the only one close to to Cat's age and is there a single instance of her having sex in the books for actual pleasure rather than as a tool to get what she wants? Also I see her and Cat as very different. Both of their mothers died when they were young but while you get the impression that while Cercei mainly sat around looking pretty and daydreaming about marrying Rhaegar Cat became the Lady of the house and took on responsibility and matured in ways Cercie never did. Cat is a mother, Cat is Lady Stark and if she were a real person and you described her that way to her face she would take it as a compliment. Family, duty, honor. Words she lived by and took pride in.

Looked at pictures of this other actress Jennifer Ehle and that's really just a matter of taste. Between the two I find Michelle Fairley much more attractive, the first word that came to mind when iI saw was Jennifer Ehle was spunky but that could be due to the pumpkin forehead. In fact of the main women in the cast Michell Fairley is the most attractive so far until Dormer comes along. My tastes definitely run different than the majority of the people I've read on here though, I do not find Ros attractive at all and can't understand what people are seeing in her.