Daenerys the cheater v. 2

[dark sister]

Wow!

Ok, obviously I did not read all 22 pages of this forum, but I read the first 3, and then the last two. So it seems we're on the issue of Tyrion and Dany now, and whether each character has had equal amount of hatred from fans based on their actions, with the moderating factor of gender. I actually think that's a very interesting topic -- and a great example.

My take on it is this:

This comparison, while fascinating (non-sarcastic) has one flaw in it, which someone else might have pointed out: appearance. One thing we DO know about Westerosi culture -- hell, EVERY culture -- is that people are first based on appearance, whether you're a noble or commoner. Nobles get shit all the time from other nobles: all the endless jokes at Lady Lollys' expense, notably for her appearance/obesity, not just her mental disability (I assume she's retarded). Even Jon Snow, who is often praised as a paragon of decency and whatnot, reveals a little of this bias when he first meets Ygritte: "at court her face would be nothing more than common". Tyrion was incredibly lucky to be born in one of the Great Houses, esp. the richest one, but his birth also "shamed" that House because he had dwarfism and was also "hideously ugly". He has an oversized head, he has heterochromia with one green eye and one black eye, and "lank" hair that is platinum white, not so much blonde. Apparently his facial features are quite ugly, and after the BBB he lacks 3/4 of a nose.

Dany, on the other hand, is [at the beginning] one of the last two scions of the former royal house. That's pretty lucky in and of itself. It's unlucky that they're orphans, and that stress to regain the Iron Throne exacerbates Viserys' propensity to madness. However, Dany is described hundreds of times as being "the most beautiful woman in the world" (rumor has a way of amplifying things, to be sure). Now our imaginations can invent what we see as beautiful, but I've seen fan art done for Dany, esp. Roman's famous Targaryen portraits. In his, at least, her belly is exposed, showing off her tiny waist, her platinum blonde hair is cascading down her back, and she has a fierce, determined look in her purple eyes -- a color that is non-existent in the real world. The closest one can get is dark blue.

Ok, so why did I go on about Tyrion and Dany's appearance and background? Because those are traits and environments that they were born with/into, things they had no control over whatsoever. I think the only way one could compare the two is by basing discussion purely on actions that these two have done, by themselves.

The thing is, where do we start? Do we start with Dany's admission into the Dothraki tribe? It's a tempting place, since we know almost nothing of her time before and the years she spent with Viserys, flitting from one free city to another. It's harder with Tyrion. Most people think that we should start when he became Hand in his father's stead for a short time, but he did a lot before that. In fact, a whole book full of stuff.

He slapped Joffrey out of being a little shit for enough time to get to the Starks and apologize for not being there when they were grieving, he left to see the Wall with Jon, on the way earning a friendship. At the Wall he treated the men with respect, (except Thorne) and took note at Mormont's need for more men. He was captured and held in a Sky Cell, and his action there was simply to walk into a tavern and be falsely accused and seized. His action at the Eyrie was to bet his life on Bronn willing to fight for him in return for advancement & dough. He has proved to be brave in battles. However, his treatment of women is deeply flawed, because of what he suffered as a boy and because of the fact that most women who see him would NEVER want to sleep with him. He knows that the whores who service him are not enjoying it, and he's seen the look in their eyes when they have not been "warned" of his ugliness and dwarfism. However, up until Shae's betrayal, he treats them kindly, and after that is pretty much lost.

His term as Hand was dictated by his father's orders to basically act as he would act, and by having to play Cersei's game. He knew that he could not play the Game honorably, even though he had honor, because Cersei would crush him immediately -- and be glad to do it. So he had to stoop to her cruel, calculating, cunning level of deception and torture. What is interesting is that once he came into the city, the war was almost in full swing, but it was the TYRELLS who closed the Roseroad, causing the famine in the capital. However, with impending Stannis/Renly war, he starts making a chain, looking into how wildfire could be used, and "educating" his nephew on the finer points of flirting with teenagers :) He chose to send Myrcella to Dorne (which would have been a good idea if not for Darkstar and Arianne's paranoia). He helped with the famine, recruited more members for the Night's Watch, tried to get Jaime out of the Starks' grasp, and kept an eye on Cersei to make sure she didn't make any more blunders. I could go on and on about his actions, but the point I'd like to make is this: no matter what he did, the commoners AND nobles hated him becaushe he he was an ugly dwarf. If Daenerys had done the same deeds, she would be hailed as King's Landing's savior Queen.

Dany, on the other hand, did what she had to do to survive in the first book. She adopted the Dothraki culture, and why not? It seemed like living among them was to be her fate for a long while. It was Viserys who didn't understand that it might take a long while before Drogo would go to war for him. It was an ill-arranged marriage in the first place, and I wonder sometimes if Illyrio didn't see that in the first place. Knowing as much as he did about Dothraki culture, I wonder how he thought he would have stayed Viserys' impatience as the years passed and nothing happened. But that's a topic for another time. Personally, I believe that she was as manipulative as Tyrion, in a precocious way. At first she was afraid, but then she used the services she had available to her - Doreah - to learn the art of love. It's similar to what Cersei does on a regular basis, except this was just to have her husband privately defer to her (another Lady Joanna, maybe). Everyone else has gone over the actions she did, and they're valid.

One thing that I believe cannot be underestimated is the fact that she is a Targaryen. At first glance, that may seem like the dumbest sentence ever written about Dany. But it truly is important. Once those dragon eggs were given to her, she saw things, and felt things, that no one else could. Personality traits are also passed down genetically, so it seems like Targ traits seem to be: intensity, extreme stubborness, a feeling of being better than/above others, sweetness, daring, thrill-seeking behavior, inner strength, piousness (even if that piousness is believing oneself is a goddess, hehe), insanity (esp. related to fire), hallucinations, etc. etc. I could think of a bunch more, but those are the first ones that come to mind. Some of them are great, and some of them are dangerous.

Anyway, this may come as a surprise, but I wouldn't say that Dany is an overly complicated characters. She just has a lot of traits that seem to clash and collide (delusional clashes with sweetness; boldness clashes with hallucinations). Almost all of these traits come from the inbreeding of her family. And it seems that stress tends to exacerbate the insanity side of the Targs. So taking this stuff into account, all of her actions are tempered by the fact that anyone who first meets her is transfixed by her beauty, inevitably falls for her (or at least wants her) and on top of learning that she is a Targaryen, wants to use her, or marry her. She has shown that she can be a ruler, but at a great cost to the people she rules. With Tyrion as Hand to another Mad King, the city prospered and was saved, in large part because of his ideas, and also because of his father's hitting Stannis in the rear. Dany, however, is less emotionally stable, AS A PERSON, not as a female or male.

If people say that there are different standards between men and women, there are even more complicated standards between men who are dwarfs and women who are "inhumanely beautiful". It complicates the situation, but not to the point where we can't make a resolution!

Its disingenuous to say that neither Tyrion nor Dany have suffered for their actions because both of them clearly have suffered. Tyrion removed from power, belittled by his father and sister, forced into exile (to avoid certain death), sold into slavery. Dany forced marriage to a barbarian, husband and son dead, betrayed by closest advisors, had to step up and rule/lead at a young age with little resources, constantly being challenged by every schemer and power hungry man in the world, limited/ no ability to control her dragons which are her only source of power, dragons constantly under threat of death or loss.

Just a couple things here:

Her husband was probably one of the least "barbaric" man in a verrrrry barbaric culture. She was very lucky there.

She didn't have to step up and rule, and she was of an age to rule anyway. She chose to cross the Red Waste b/c she thought the comet was leading her somewhere.

I don't agree that she has limited ability to control her dragons. She controlled the biggest, most fiery-tempered one of them with nothing but a whip and her voice (yea yea everyone's said this before, but that's b/c it's true).

The dragons are by no means constantly threatened by death. The only time they were at that stage was when she couldn't remember how to feed them. Now that they're big, they'll be pretty hard to lose, as Quentyn learned to his sorrow. (Yes, Vis and Rhae have flown off for now, but I highly doubt they're gone for good.)

[Sevumar]

This is an interesting, thoughtful analysis of two very high-profile characters who often provoke very extreme reactions from people. In these kinds of discussions, it's important to keep in mind that many of the characters in ASOIAF are once-in-a-generation types of people hailing from a wide variety of cultures and locations. As you pointed out, all of these people benefit from an amazing amount of luck even though they have survived awful experiences.

I don't think it's really possible to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each character against the other. How do you determine how a lifetime of abuse at the hands of one's father measures up against never knowing one's father or spending a childhood running from imagined threats? How can you compare Tyrion's sexual abuse at the hands of his family against Dany's maltreatment by Viserys? Both characters became who they are as a result of their various advantages and traumas alike and both are responsible for their choices.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Hey, dark sister, how dare you make a "Daenerys the cheater v2" thread? ( :P )

Don't know why they closed the other one... i guess because of the massive derailing (though i did greatly enjoy that hypothetical conversation James Arryn posted near the end there, LOL).

Sorry for the off topic, carry on.

[Queen Cersei I]

Hey, dark sister, how dare you make a "Daenerys the cheater v2" thread? ( :P )

Don't know why they closed the other one... i guess because of the massive derailing (though i did greatly enjoy that hypothetical conversation James Arryn posted near the end there, LOL).

Sorry for the off topic, carry on.

I think it was because the thread had gone over the limit of 21 pages. The old thread was 22 pages long.

Wow! Ok, obviously I did not read all 22 pages of this forum, but I read the first 3, and then the last two. So it seems we're on the issue of Tyrion and Dany now, and whether each character has had equal amount of hatred from fans based on their actions, with the moderating factor of gender. I actually think that's a very interesting topic -- and a great example.

Interesting, but my original post was not meant to highlight the fact that, I think that Tyrion has made some pretty major political blunders during his time in power, yet seems to often get far less criticism for these mistakes than Danerys does for hers. Listing Tyrion's mistakes, I noted:

Tyrion is guilty of truly horrible PR. He never tries to get out there and interact with the people, and neglects to take the crucial step of creating a positive, likeable public image. He alienates the people by doing things like bringing in the violent, uncouth mountain clans that terrorized Kings Landing, and led to numerous murders and violent acts that the people blamed him for. He acts (it would appear, if one steps back and views his actions from the outside, rather than taking it for granted that we know what's going on in his head, and that he is "good") haughty and superior rather than coming across as “a friend of the people.”

Taking all this into account, it is no surprise that everyone takes a dislike to him, and blames him for the famine and for controlling Joffrey. The places where Tyrion is shocked to learn that the people of kings landing blame him for the famine and when he is filled with self righteous hatred when they laugh at him at his trial are seem to encourage the reader to feel a deep pity for Tyrion, and see the smallfolk as ungrateful, cruel, and foolish.

I've heard numerous people note this, going on about the resident's of kings landings stupidity, ingratitude, ect. It is implied that these people hate Tyrion simply because Tyrion is a dwarf. However, IMO, they merely hate him because, through his own actions, he has alienated the people and made himself the perfect scapegoat. If Tyrion would have tried to interact with the people, did public good works for them, not brought on a bunch of barbarians to wreak havoc amongst their city, and somehow made his opposition to his nephew and championing of the rights of the smallfolk clear in some subtle way on a few occasions, he could have, I genuinely believe, earned the affection of the smallfolk.

However, as things happened, all the common people saw was a haughty man who brought a bunch of murdering savages into kings landing for selfish purposes and then failed to control them; was clearly a part of the destructive, untrustworthy Lannister family; employed and kept company with fierce savage killers like Bronn; committed several acts of gratuitous and off putting violence, including his unnecessarily violent "questioning" of old Maester pycelle (which the tv series sanitized, but which, in the books, featured Tyrion having three men hold Pycelle down and order one to hold a knife to Pycelles genitals, threatening to cut it off); failed to interact with or reach out to the smallfolk or express concern for them in any apparent way; and who generally, by all appearances, seemed allied with Joffrey.

Given all that, it is not surprising that the smallfolk assumed that Tyrion was allied with Joffrey. And given Joffrey's young age and the nature of some of Tyrion's violent, publically known acts, it is not surprising that the people assumed that Tyrion was the one controlling Joffrey, "playing on the pipes as the crown prince danced."

Overall, Tyrion made some pretty glaring mistakes in King’s Landing that led to his eventual downfall. Saying he failed because he was instantly loathed and persecuted for his dwarfism is inaccurate. When considering Tyrion’s overall political/ leadership abilities, I think it is essential to take his significant failings and weaknesses into account.

Tyrion’s dwarfism and the treatment that this earns him is certainly something that inspires pity on our, the reader’s, part. However, looking critically at his activities in kings landing, people did not hate him “simply for being a dwarf.” (The conclusion that he eventually comes to.) His own mistakes are ultimately responsible for how he was perceived by the smallfolk and most of those around him. His dwarfism may have been a point against him in the minds of many, however, with the right political moves, he could have overcome this. Instead, he committed a number of public mistakes that earned him the distrust and dislike of the people and others around him. His own actions made casting him into the role of the manipulative uncle and master puppeteer all too easy.

I noted this on the earlier thread because I find the dichotomy between reactions to Tyrion vs. reactions to Danerys to be interesting. Danerys rarely escapes criticism for each and every questionable decision she makes, and people often end up actually loathing her for her blunders. Meanwhile, Tyrion’s mistakes are often overlooked. People often attribute his failure in kings landing to a mixture of unfair persecution on account of Tyrion’s dwarfism, betrayal, and the wickedness of his adversaries. However, I think Tyrion made some major mistakes that contributed to him making his own bed that eventually resulted in his downfall.

Should this be considered when people contend that Dany needs Tyrion as an advisor? Or are Tyrion’s errors merely things that would effect him as a public figure, and not harm him as an advisor?

[Catastrophe]

You raise some good points about Tyrion's failure to create a likable (or even tolerable) public image for himself. However, I don't think this can really be considered a mistake on Tyrion's part; I don't think he ever had any real opportunities to do so, due to numerous other factors beyond his control.

For example, Tyrion couldn't refuse to associate with sellswords like Bronn or with the Mountain Clans, since he desperately needed people like them. He knew from Ned Stark's example that laws and titles can only get you so far; sooner or later you have to resort to physical force to keep playing the game. If Tyrion wanted to get anything done in King's Landing and survive, he had to have people who were willing to fight for him. His father, his sister, and his bastard nephew all had countless troops loyal to them, and even Varys had his "little birds," so Tyrion had no choice but to try and even the odds any way he could.

Similarly, Tyrion had to make it look like he was allied with Joffrey. He barely got away with challenging Joffrey in the Red Keep, even in cases where everyone could see that the Boy King was behaving abominably. If he'd publicly shown even the slightest disloyalty toward his King, Cersei and Joffrey would've jumped on the opportunity to have Tyrion imprisoned and killed for treason, or at least removed from office.

There's also the fact that just by being a Lannister, Tyrion had already earned the ire of much of King's Landing. Any attempts to cultivate a positive public image would've been hamstrung right from the start, simply because of his last name, and that's not even taking his dwarfism into account.

[PatrickStormborn]

I think saying that being a woman who is a badass fighter has "male characteristics" might be a little misogynistic. Women can be badasses. Without men playing into it at all.

Erm, I'm sorry, but you're completely misunderstanding my point.

Sword fighting is, even in our society, associated with masculinity. Women who fight are therefore associating themselves with characteristics that are traditionally seen to be masculine.

Pointing out that society views men and women differently =/= misogynism.

[eyeheartsansa]

I don't see Tyrion as 'failing' at all. He negotiated a pretty good potential alliance with Dorne via Myrcella, and more importantly, he engineered the boon chain that laid Stannis's navy to waste. He saved the city.

The rest is nitpicking by comparison. He could probably have worked on his PR skills, but compared to Cercei and Joffrey he looked like a boyscout. What does it matter if everyone likes the dwarf when Cercei is killing babies and joffrey is stripping and beating his betrothed in front of the court, and sicking his dogs on random peasants?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't see Tyrion as 'failing' at all. He negotiated a pretty good potential alliance with Dorne via Myrcella, and more importantly, he engineered the boon chain that laid Stannis's navy to waste. He saved the city.

The rest is nitpicking by comparison. He could probably have worked on his PR skills, but compared to Cercei and Joffrey he looked like a boyscout. What does it matter if everyone likes the dwarf when Cercei is killing babies and joffrey is stripping and beating his betrothed in front of the court, and sicking his dogs on random peasants?

Yeah, Tyrion may have lost the PR battle, but there's more to governing than that.

[Winter's Knight]

Apart from the chain, what does he do for KL?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Apart from the chain, what does he do for KL?

Without the chain, there wouldn't be a King's Landing.

But I seem to remember him tackling corruption and working to restore some sort of order. Food was scarce but there wasn't much he could do there, with Renly blocking the roads in, except to mitigate the worst of it — like trying to stop Joffrey from shooting people during a bread riot.

[eyeheartsansa]

Kept things from being much, much worse than they would have been.

Back to Dany...

These are probably my two favorite characters that I am always rushing to defend, and it's true that Dany gets picked on much more.

So much of it is from a 'meta' perspective, and I wonder if people have trouble distinguishing between being frustated with Dany for making 'bad decisions,' or frustrated with GRRM for not getting her to Westeros yet.

That's not really Dany's fault.. she is not aware that thousands of nerds are online clamoring for her to take Westeros. GRRM is trying to at least be realistic. If she'd taken off for Westeros at the end of ASOS, it would have been a disaster, and everyone would be mad that she rushed into it without first taking time to learn how to be a queen.

[David Selig]

Without the chain, there wouldn't be a King's Landing.

Why do you think so? The Tyrells and Lannisters still had a much bigger army even if most of Stannis's ships haven't been destroyed. The "Renly's ghost" trick still would've worked. They had the surprise on their side. All that would've been changed is that it would've been a harder battle for them, but still they were heavy favourites to win it comfortably.

But I seem to remember him tackling corruption and working to restore some sort of order.

Tyrion sent Slynt to the Wall because he wanted to have a guy in charge of the Watch who would obey him first, not Cersei and LF like Slynt. He didn't give a damn about corruption and did nothing to battle it.

[eyeheartsansa]

Why do you think so? The Tyrells and Lannisters still had a much bigger army even if most of Stannis's ships haven't been destroyed. The "Renly's ghost" trick still would've worked. They had the surprise on their side. All that would've been changed is that it would've been a harder battle for them, but still they were heavy favourites to win it comfortably.

'renly's ghost' showing up in time was a surprise to everyone. It doesn't make Tyrion's boom chain any less of an accomplishment.

[David Selig]

'renly's ghost' showing up in time was a surprise to everyone. It doesn't make Tyrion's boom chain any less of an accomplishment.

I never said it's not an accomplishment, of course it is. I just disagree with the claim that KL would have been destroyed if not for it.

[Silmarien]

Most of the "moves" Tyrion makes focus on him outplaying Cersei and gaining loyalty on the small council. Such as the Pycelle move. He should have been making NICE with Cersei and Joffrey if he wanted to survive. In fact Tyrion didn't even think about how he would survive after his father returned and took over the Handship. That's a lot of error in planning longterm.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I never said it's not an accomplishment, of course it is. I just disagree with the claim that KL would have been destroyed if not for it.

If Stannis' forces hadn't been caught by the chain, how much of the capital would've still been standing when the Tyrells got there? And I'm sure that the preservation of the capital was kind of Tyrion's intention when he ordered the thing built, which is kind of the point, surely.

[eyeheartsansa]

Most of the "moves" Tyrion makes focus on him outplaying Cersei and gaining loyalty on the small council. Such as the Pycelle move. He should have been making NICE with Cersei and Joffrey if he wanted to survive. In fact Tyrion didn't even think about how he would survive after his father returned and took over the Handship. That's a lot of error in planning longterm.

It seems to me that it was less about 'survival' for Tyrion than it was about cleaning up messes left by Cercei and Joffrey; actually that's something I admire about him. He could have 'played nice,' but think how much worse things would have been.

[Winter's Knight]

If Stannis' forces hadn't been caught by the chain, how much of the capital would've still been standing when the Tyrells got there?

Wildfire accounted for quite a few of those ships.

I was just reading the part in ASoS when Dany manipulates the fall of Yunkai. She is a good tactician and was able to win the city with minimal bloodshed.

[Winter's Knight]

It seems to me that it was less about 'survival' for Tyrion than it was about cleaning up messes left by Cercei and Joffrey; actually that's something I admire about him. He could have 'played nice,' but think how much worse things would have been.

He didn't clean up any messes though, did he? He just replaced Cersei's men with his own and that's it-what other changes did he make that bettered the city or made lives easier.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Wildfire accounted for quite a few of those ships.

... Gee, and who oh who thought to use wildfire?

I was just reading the part in ASoS when Dany manipulates the fall of Yunkai. She is a good tactician and was able to win the city with minimal bloodshed.

Yeah, and now that same city is parked outside her doorstep with a pretty large army.