Daenerys the cheater v. 2

[BabyMeraxes]

This is the thing about Dany's marriage to Drogo. Was it rape? Probably a little bit the first time. She was obviously frigtened and uncomfortable and forced, but I agree that Ladies in this world are placed in very similar or worse situations, and that, beyond her marriage night, Dany has it pretty good. But that's just it, Dany through her own actions, makes Khal Drogo love her and continuosly proves herself during the Dothraki crucibles (schooling Viserys, eating the horse heart, dragging the wine seller behind her horse). She conquers those people, in a sense that she forces them all to see her not as a beatuiful, weakling, foriegn noble, but as their Queen. But, anyway, back to suffering: Dany does suffer in a unique way, because, in this place and culture that is still pretty wild and different, she loses the man she loves (and still pines for in Dragons) and the child she practically carried to full term. And, she loses both of them in a terrible, trecherous way. I know a lot of people don't like to blame MMD for Drogo's death, and mostly, I agree to that. Who knows what would have happend if Drogo took her advice and cared for his wounds properly. I agree that Dany's actions played a big role in Drogo and Rhaego's deaths, but I don't think that's lost on Dany, which, for me, makes her suffering all that more acute. There's also the Red Waste, which I think the TV show does a good good of portraying as awful and harrowing, and Quarth kind of proves that Dany's name will only get her so far. Also, this constant acknowledgment of her nobility that people believe is arrogance, to me, more often seems like a burden. I think Dany's journey to Westeros happens not only because thinks she's capable, but because she feels like she has to, not because she wants to or thinks she would enjoy it.

[BabyMeraxes]

I can guarantee you that no fan of Dany has ever said her suffering was unique and that no one else has ever suffered. But what the hell are you getting out of trying to minimize her suffering? Like what is the point? It certainly makes you seem to lack any human sympathy whatsoever, but other than that IDK.

I also do not recall anyone saying that Dany deserves the throne because she has suffered as you stated is so common (care to provide some evidence?) so I'm going to go with the conclusion that you are tilting at windmills, bigtime, here.

Dany's suffering is unique, like her love for Khal Drogo, Rhaego and her rag-tag horde was unique.

[butterbumps!]

Whatever your criticisms of Dany's character, minimising her considerable sufferings is a foul attempt at making a point.

How is putting her suffering into perspective the same thing as minimizing it? I think that if one is going to accept age, background and upbringing as a legitimate factor in evaluating characters, then there needs to be perspective and consistency when making such evaluations, and my contention- and really, the only reason I brought this up- is that Dany seems to be regarded by many to have these aspects referenced as more egregious and relevant than to analysis of other characters. All I'm trying to say is that I think it's important to keep Dany's trials in perspective for productive conversation.

[Winter's Knight]

How is putting her suffering into perspective the same thing as minimizing it? I think that if one is going to accept age, background and upbringing as a legitimate factor in evaluating characters, then there needs to be perspective and consistency when making such evaluations, and my contention- and really, the only reason I brought this up- is that Dany seems to be regarded by many to have these aspects referenced as more egregious and relevant than to analysis of other characters. All I'm trying to say is that I think it's important to keep Dany's trials in perspective for productive conversation.

Except that, that isn't what you're doing:

I

f arranged marriage = rape (and I'm not saying it doesn't), then Dany's marriage is no different than anyone who has faced an arranged marriage in the history of Westeros. Well, it is different I suppose in that Drogo miraculously turns out to be a much kinder husband than 90% of Westerosi men. I truly don't see how any of Dany's situations are qualitatively worse than anyone else's we've seen. Highborn women who have a say in their marriages are the exception rather than the rule, and actually, I don't think anyone we've seen truly has had a choice in the matter. Dany's being "sold" is not really different to any other woman's plight, to my mind.

The above point you try to prove by using the brides of Ramsay Bolton and Sansa Stark-neither of whom are representative of the average Westerosi marriage among nobles.

[butterbumps!]

Ok, could you explain what exactly about my previous examples that make them exceptions? Is it that the men they are married to are monsters? If so, do you believe that Drogo is similarly a monster, and that is why you believe Dany's marriage to Drogo is also in the category of exceptions? I think that's really a coin toss- women have no choice of their partners, period, and some arranged marriages happen to be worse than others. Roose and Gregor also had wives that died under mysterious circumstances, and I know we've encountered loads more.

I can't tell exactly what makes Dany's marriage worse than others, though. I think it's exceptional in the sense that Drogo is a foreigner, which is something we don't explicitly see, but I don't necessarily think Drogo is a monster to Dany, and I do believe that with the exception of saddle-sore sex, he is very decent to her, and respects and admires her. To that end, I'd say it is exceptional, but on the positive side.

Women are cheap in Westeros, and I think it's more common to treat them as chattel than otherwise (this is not a celebration of women= chattel, but rather I'm trying to articulate how I interpret Westerosi gender politics).

[Winter's Knight]

Except that, in the case of Ramsay, he took both women against their will, without the consent of their families. Same with Sansa.

The one analogy that may come close to Dany's marriage is when Gregor's wives' families wed the two-even though they know that he is a monster.

[butterbumps!]

So what makes a marriage exceptionally bad is when the woman's families accept the marriage even though they know it puts her in danger?

I can agree with this, as Viserys had no idea if Drogo would abuse her (and he definitely didn't care if he did), but I stand by my opinion that Drogo was one of the most loving husbands we've seen, and that her marriage was actually one of the very nice things in her life that she genuinely mourns, and a time when she truly felt a real identity.

[PatrickStormborn]

Regarding my empathy (or lack thereof) for Dany: My issue is that I feel so much of her suffering is overblown by posters as something extreme, cruel and unusual in the series, not that it is non-existent. I'm not saying that life's being terrible for everyone isn't bad, or that she knows nothing of suffering, but that I resent the fact that Dany get free passes for sufferings that in reality could be argued for any other character, but for some reason aren't (and I wouldn't condone it even if it was- it's such a conversation killer). And I'm not trying to minimize her suffering, but trying to call a spade a spade- it is qualitatively different to be a literal beggar on the street, starving and forced into labor versus being a guest in aristocratic households. If you call Dany a "slave" for being sold into marriage, then all other females who have been sent to arranged marriages are also "slaves." I just do not think her plight is necessarily extraordinary for that of most females we've seen, and in fact, it is ultimately much better in many ways than others.

Sorry, but I think you're wrong here. Daenerys was sold to Drogo, just like a slave. Did you miss the part where she was given the "golden collar"? This is not normal Westerosi behaviour. There is certainly no feminist movement in Westeros, but women are not traded like slaves by the fathers of the brides. They are also treated with respect, unlike Daenerys who was raped and wanted to kill herself. The only argument I'll accept is that Dany's marriage was better than Jeyne Poole's and Sansa's. (Although Roslin's wedding night was obviously the worst, I don't think the marriage itself is quite on the level of Dany's, Jeyne's and Sansa's).

It also must be added that Dany made Drogo love her. If she hadn't shown such a vast amount of strength during her time with the Dothraki (which I'm sure most of us sure as hell wouldn't be able to manage!), then he would have continued to rape her and treat her with no respect.

So no, I don't think Dany should take the throne just because of her bad life. But I do think it should be taken into consideration because it forms such an essential part of her character, and it shows how much strength she has and how much potential she has. As far as I can see, Dany has shown probably the most strength out of all the characters in the series (although part of me would argue that Catelyn showed more).

[butterbumps!]

I beg to differ on a few grounds. Marriage in Westeros is exactly like horse trading. It is normal, and women being treated with respect or as equals is just something that doesn't happen typically. Secondly, calling Dany- exclusively- a slave because commercial goods were always exchanged at the time of the agreement simultaneously aggrandizes the horror of her situation while negating it for all the other women. No, Robert didn't pay money or horses for Cersei, but he tacitly traded other forms of leverage for making her his queen, and received other benefits in return for the match.

I just located the passage about the golden collar, and specifically, it is not ultimately a token of enslavement for Dany. Yes, she looks at herself wearing it and thinks of what her handmaids say about how Drogo is so rich that even his slaves wear gold collars, disheartened by the obvious parallel. But when we see actual slaves, they are not allowed to remove their collar, and as this is the only instance where Dany wears such a thing (and we do not even know that he demanded she did, it may have just been a typical piece of jewelry), I do not think it is as telling as you imply.

It also must be added that Dany made Drogo love her. If she hadn't shown such a vast amount of strength during her time with the Dothraki (which I'm sure most of us sure as hell wouldn't be able to manage!), then he would have continued to rape her and treat her with no respect.

Sure, kind of like how Ned grew to love Cat, as she grew more aware and receptive to his dark and stoic moods. The fact of the matter is that yes, Drogo was going to have sex with her no matter what on her wedding night, but he does so in such a way that was downright seductive. She's the one who puts his fingers inside her, not the other way around. As for the saddlesore rapes, I mentioned before that I wonder if Drogo knew how much pain it caused her, whether he would have persisted (as she hid it from him). I could see the answer being no, that he would see it as weakness and a turnoff. I think by the end he certainly would have refrained had she expressed discomfort.

I agree with Catelyn, but I'd add Sansa and Arya before Dany, personally.

[Euphail]

Sorry, but I think you're wrong here. Daenerys was sold to Drogo, just like a slave. Did you miss the part where she was given the "golden collar"? This is not normal Westerosi behaviour. There is certainly no feminist movement in Westeros, but women are not traded like slaves by the fathers of the brides. They are also treated with respect, unlike Daenerys who was raped and wanted to kill herself. The only argument I'll accept is that Dany's marriage was better than Jeyne Poole's and Sansa's. (Although Roslin's wedding night was obviously the worst, I don't think the marriage itself is quite on the level of Dany's, Jeyne's and Sansa's).

So in your opinion when Frey offered any one of his daughters to Robb to marry, he simply had to choose, and in exchange he would be allowed to cross the river, this wasn't selling a woman?

Or is it different because Arya was sold as part of the deal as well? I know for certain she wouldn't have been consulted at this point.

Perhaps I'm nitpicking, and I don't mean to deminish the fact that such acts are uncontionable, but I don't see a difference. Is it that she got a collar, and the Frey girl would eventually get a nice cloak? To me, being sold is being sold, and I really dont' see being sold to a High Lord of Westeros as diminishing the fact that you're being sold.

I wish we had a POV for the wife of Gregor Clegane. I wonder how his wife felt about the arrangement.

ETA: I agree that Catelyn is very strong, though I dislike some of her decisions, and really question her intentions. I would put Sansa near the top, and Arya for her age was rediculously impressive.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Perhaps I'm nitpicking, and I don't mean to deminish the fact that such acts are uncontionable, but I don't see a difference. Is it that she got a collar, and the Frey girl would eventually get a nice cloak? To me, being sold is being sold, and I really dont' see being sold to a High Lord of Westeros as diminishing the fact that you're being sold.

From what I've read, it is the whole "oh she has a collar like the slaves!" thing. I agree with you — being sold is being sold, and if you need a collar to tell you that a transaction has taken place, well ...

[BabyMeraxes]

@Euphail

Let's not forget Brienne.

[PatrickStormborn]

Perhaps I'm nitpicking, and I don't mean to deminish the fact that such acts are uncontionable, but I don't see a difference. Is it that she got a collar, and the Frey girl would eventually get a nice cloak? To me, being sold is being sold, and I really dont' see being sold to a High Lord of Westeros as diminishing the fact that you're being sold.

There is quite a glaring difference: the Freys would support her if Robb dishonoured her (which they did, when he married Jeyne). In contrast, Viserys told Dany that he'd let Drogo's whole tribe rape her if that's what it took. So Westerosi noble women in their marriages have more protection than Daenerys did.

Oh, another thing: Dany was thirteen. It may have been common for marriages to take place at this age, but sleeping with thirteen year old girls is not considered a social norm in Westeros.

ETA: I agree that Catelyn is very strong, though I dislike some of her decisions, and really question her intentions. I would put Sansa near the top, and Arya for her age was rediculously impressive.

I'm not saying Sansa and Arya aren't strong, don't get me wrong. I just think that Dany and Cat are a bit stronger. It's interesting to note, however, that no male character in the series is as strong as those four.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Oh, another thing: Dany was thirteen. It may have been common for marriages to take place at this age, but sleeping with thirteen year old girls is not considered a social norm in Westeros.

Isn't Sansa about 13 when she marries Tyrion? And Tywin and everyone else is angry because Tyrion hasn't consummated it? And Jeyne Poole can't be much older than that when she marries Ramsay, and that one is (horrendously) consummated. Far as I can tell, in Westeros, when a girl starts menstruating, she's fair game.

[ARYa_Nym]

October 05, 1999

Age of Sexual Relations in Westeros

The nature of the relationship between Sandor and Sansa has been a hot topic on Revanshe's board. Sansa's youth has been one focus of the discussion. What is the general Westerosi view as to romantic or sexual relationships involving a girl of Sansa's age and level of physical maturity?

A boy is Westeros is considered to be a "man grown" at sixteen years. The same is true for girls. Sixteen is the age of legal majority, as twenty-one is for us.

However, for girls, the first flowering is also very significant... and in older traditions, a girl who has flowered is a woman, fit for both wedding and bedding.

A girl who has flowered, but not yet attained her sixteenth name day, is in a somewhat ambigious position: part child, part woman. A "maid," in other words. Fertile but innocent, beloved of the singers.

In the "general Westerosi view," well, girls may well be wed before their first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to bed them. And such early weddings, even without sex, remain rare. Generally weddings are postponed until the bride has passed from girlhood to maidenhood.

Maidens may be wedded and bedded... however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted.

As in the real Middle Ages, highborn girls tend to flower significantly earlier than those of lower birth. Probably a matter of nutrition. As a result, they also tend to marry earlier, and to bear children earlier.

There are plenty of exceptions.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Age_of_Sexual_Relations_in_Westeros/

[Euphail]

There is quite a glaring difference: the Freys would support her if Robb dishonoured her (which they did, when he married Jeyne). In contrast, Viserys told Dany that he'd let Drogo's whole tribe rape her if that's what it took. So Westerosi noble women in their marriages have more protection than Daenerys did.

So the issue is that she didn't have a strong enough family to defend her honour? or is it that Viserys is a jerk? If Viserys were replaced with a more honourable, but equally weak individual, would that change matters? Again, to me, sold is sold. You might have more pride in the fact that you were sold for more, or that your family still loves you, but you're still a head of cattle.

Oh, another thing: Dany was thirteen. It may have been common for marriages to take place at this age, but sleeping with thirteen year old girls is not considered a social norm in Westeros.

I don't think that's right. I don't think it was a convention to go around and find 13 year old girls to sleep with either - but as long as a girl has flowered she is a woman, and sleeping with her is not taboo. I don't have a direct example of an extremely young marriage besides Sansa or Jeyne, but Sansa is asked directly about the matter in Winterfel. This to me signifies the social acceptance that after she has flowered, it's fine.

ETA: I didn't see Arya_Nym's post. Great find!

ETA: Does anyone know the chapter where Cersei talks about being ordered to marry again? I think she actually says she's being traded like cattle or something similar.

[BabyMeraxes]

There is quite a glaring difference: the Freys would support her if Robb dishonoured her (which they did, when he married Jeyne). In contrast, Viserys told Dany that he'd let Drogo's whole tribe rape her if that's what it took. So Westerosi noble women in their marriages have more protection than Daenerys did.

Oh, another thing: Dany was thirteen. It may have been common for marriages to take place at this age, but sleeping with thirteen year old girls is not considered a social norm in Westeros.

I'm not saying Sansa and Arya aren't strong, don't get me wrong. I just think that Dany and Cat are a bit stronger. It's interesting to note, however, that no male character in the series is as strong as those four.

It seems to me that flowering = porking age. So that could be anywhere from 12-16+. I think we can all agree that it's shitty to be a girl in Westeros.

I'd give props to Bran and Tyrion. Strength, like power and suffering, is a tricky thing to quantify and compare.

[PatrickStormborn]

Isn't Sansa about 13 when she marries Tyrion? And Tywin and everyone else is angry because Tyrion hasn't consummated it? And Jeyne Poole can't be much older than that when she marries Ramsay, and that one is (horrendously) consummated. Far as I can tell, in Westeros, when a girl starts menstruating, she's fair game.

Sansa is 13 when she marries Tyrion, and no one expects her to have continuous sex with him. It's a very rare situation that is not reflective of Westerosi society. Arya_Nym's post should answer your question (and it is the quote I was referring to).

http://www.westeros....ns_in_Westeros/

Thank you for posting this. :)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Sansa is 13 when she marries Tyrion, and no one expects her to have continuous sex with him. It's a very rare situation that is not reflective of Westerosi society. Arya_Nym's post should answer your question (and it is the quote I was referring to).

But they do expect it to be consummated. And I did read the post, which mentioned a gray area between when a girl started menstruating (flowering) and when she reached the age of majority. "Maidens may be wedded and bedded ..."

[PatrickStormborn]

But they do expect it to be consummated. And I did read the post, which mentioned a gray area between when a girl started menstruating (flowering) and when she reached the age of majority. "Maidens may be wedded and bedded ..."

In the "general Westerosi view," well, girls may well be wed before their first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to bed them. And such early weddings, even without sex, remain rare. Generally weddings are postponed until the bride has passed from girlhood to maidenhood.

To me, this suggests that it is not normal in Westeros for maidens to be "bedded" at the age of 13.

ETA: Tywin only wants it to be consumated because the marriage was forced upon Sansa and he did not want her to be able to get out of it. It is not reflective of other marriages in Westeros.